Ouch. That's not good.
By coincidence, I sent a request for a price quote to SWRI a few hours ago, but have not heard back yet.
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Reusable oil filter
- Thread starter WingnutWick
- Start date
Ouch. That's not good.
By coincidence, I sent a request for a price quote to SWRI a few hours ago, but have not heard back yet.
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Oil analysis with mesh filters....
Interesting video. I wonder if the paper filter had a magnet, and the mesh filter did not. Or would that have made any difference? What did they find in the samples from each filter as far as contaminants? In scientific research, we always want results to be verified by other people testing your results. One test is interesting but may not be the complete picture.
I wonder if we could get posts from people who have had oil analysis done with their oil changes who have changed to a mesh filter. Was there any difference? How did the analysis with the mesh compare to the paper filter? That would be real-world comparison.....
Interesting video. I wonder if the paper filter had a magnet, and the mesh filter did not. Or would that have made any difference? What did they find in the samples from each filter as far as contaminants? In scientific research, we always want results to be verified by other people testing your results. One test is interesting but may not be the complete picture.
I wonder if we could get posts from people who have had oil analysis done with their oil changes who have changed to a mesh filter. Was there any difference? How did the analysis with the mesh compare to the paper filter? That would be real-world comparison.....
Jetmart
Well Known Member
From the comment section in the video I am not so sure that the micron of the reusable filter was the same as the paper filter. I got the impression the paper filter had smaller micron specs.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
They explain that in the video.
Denver - ask and you shall receive!
To make this a challenge, have a look to see if you can tell when I changed from the paper filter to the K&P stainless steel mesh.
You can also probably see when I started using Camguard.
I assume the silicon numbers are your filter flag, and the calcium and phosphorus indicate Camgard.
Which paper filter were you using? As noted previously, the Champion beta numbers are not fabulous when compared to good auto filters, and terrible when compared to premium lines from Caterpillar, etc (which are 6~12 micron at 75 beta!). However, Champion claims to meet the ARP1400 aviation standard, and further claims Tempest does not. There seems to be some support for their view, but without independent testing...
Speaking of which, I got a note back from SWRI. It's $1500 to $1900 per filter for an ISO 4548-12 test. We need a generous benefactor, or we need to crowd fund it.
Have not checked with any other labs.
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sprucemoose
Well Known Member
I’ll start. Put me down for a C note if you want to crowd fund it. I want to know. I’ve been running these on 2 aircraft engines.
Same here - happy to pitch in.
I also asked for price and sample report from these guys:
https://www.laboratuar.com/en/testl...yaglama-yagi-filtreleri-icin-test-yontemleri/
Update: EUROLAB want 5000 Euro to do the test, so sounds like SWRI is the best option at this point.
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KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
To what purpose?
If you are not having the S15 filter tested against the aviation standard that Champion uses, what is the purpose of this test? No doubt there are better filters out there (Amsoil bypass filter setup comes to mind), but seems you are comparing data from two different standards.
If you are not having the S15 filter tested against the aviation standard that Champion uses, what is the purpose of this test? No doubt there are better filters out there (Amsoil bypass filter setup comes to mind), but seems you are comparing data from two different standards.
If Jeff is helping, Jeff's favorite P.I.T.A. will match his crowd fund it. I am in!
Yes, really need to test the S15 and the Champion, at the same lab.
In a perfect world, we would do S15, Champion, Tempest, and Wix. I suggest Wix rather than some other auto filter source because they have a good rep with engine people and are also sold as NAPA Gold.
Sit tight while I make a few calls. First, the R&D guy at SWRI. I'd like his views on ISO 4548 vs SAE J1858, and perhaps a firm price commitment to run several filters.
I’m obviously pretty curious to see what the results of such tests might tell us - data rules! The thing to remember however is that while you could find out which filter is “best”, the real question is “what level of filtration is required to make my Lyclone go to TBO”. And that data has to come from elsewhere…probably Lycoming, but do they have any data to guide us?
This is kidn off in the same category of the “my oil hoses are good to 3,000 psi, not just a wimpy wimpy 2,000 psi”, when the oil pump can only put out 150 psi. 20 times the standard is better then 15 times the standard of course….but in reality it makes no difference. The bar is the bar, not “who can jump the highest bar”.
But as I said…I’d love to see which filter performs the best as well! Then tell us what the bar is…it used to be an oil screen that could pass pebbles….
(NASA used SWRI in San Antonio a lot post-Columbia - They do good work, and I have waded through a lot of their data. Be aware that it isn’t consumer-level… a lot of it took significant engineering assessment to figure out what the data was actually telling us.)
Paul
This is kidn off in the same category of the “my oil hoses are good to 3,000 psi, not just a wimpy wimpy 2,000 psi”, when the oil pump can only put out 150 psi. 20 times the standard is better then 15 times the standard of course….but in reality it makes no difference. The bar is the bar, not “who can jump the highest bar”.
But as I said…I’d love to see which filter performs the best as well! Then tell us what the bar is…it used to be an oil screen that could pass pebbles….
(NASA used SWRI in San Antonio a lot post-Columbia - They do good work, and I have waded through a lot of their data. Be aware that it isn’t consumer-level… a lot of it took significant engineering assessment to figure out what the data was actually telling us.)
Paul
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Did you ask them?
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Exactly.
1. The really great thing about VAF is that there are really smart people here who advance our knowledge in ways that help us fly safer and keep our aircraft happy.
2. The really anxiety-producing thing about VAF is that there are really smart people here who advance our knowledge by going down academic exercise rabbit holes that just make all of us who are not as smart question whether our aircraft might fall out of the sky.
Don’t get me wrong, I very much respect those who are contributing to this thread and also will be curious to see what the test results might show. But… I asked earlier in this thread, given that the FAA has already blessed the Challenger version of the S15, were we questioning for a practical reason or merely for the academic exercise?
I’m starting to lean even more heavily toward the latter…
but, unfortunately, I still have that nagging feeling the my O-320’s days are numbered because I’ve been using an S-15 for the past 25 hours!
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Yes...but...
A better example, and a more concerning reality is a filter that can capture and hold >10uM particles but allow particles <10uM through the media.
Also, I seem to recall from your KP article that the Challenger Filter Media was of a different stripe than what was in the SF15 and its ilk. Details? Or am I mis-remembering (frantically digging through the archives
)
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I did, a long time ago…got blank stares and “we’ll have to look in to that” answers, which told me that (A) no one currently employed actually new and (B) they weren’t going to spend money to find out.
After all, 50% of their factory engine builds at the time were overhauls, and why would they be interested in decreasing that line of business (being very cynical here…haven’t had a cup of coffee yet this morning….) ?
Exactly.
But… I asked earlier in this thread, given that the FAA has already blessed the Challenger version of the S15, were we questioning for a practical reason or merely for the academic exercise?
I’m starting to lean even more heavily toward the latter…
but, unfortunately, I still have that nagging feeling the my O-320’s days are numbered because I’ve been using an S-15 for the past 25 hours!
In my little correspondence with K&P on this is that the Approved Challenger Line is for Aviation and there is a premium in their pricing to help offset their associated risks and the costs for the approval.
The K&P side of things like the S15 is for non Aviation and of course reduced costs and risks.
Now, what is the actual difference on filtering between the Challenger Line and the K&P non aviation side? That is a little more ambiguous.
Tim
A Lycoming is no different from any other piston engine in the realm of boundary lubrication.
Consider just one aspect, cylinder wear. The K&P has a 35 micron screen. Abrasive wear happens when hard particle size exceeds oil film thickness. I've attached two illustrations from Haywood and (for those who insist aviation engines are "special") Schwaner.
.
Consider just one aspect, cylinder wear. The K&P has a 35 micron screen. Abrasive wear happens when hard particle size exceeds oil film thickness. I've attached two illustrations from Haywood and (for those who insist aviation engines are "special") Schwaner.
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Attachments
Dan 57
Well Known Member
I'll add some tangible data to the debate...
My engine was fitted with a S15 filter on 27-March-2022, at a TSO 1195:32.
Oil change is performed every 50h, analysis performed courtesy of AOA.
Latest probe was sent off today with a TSO of 1818:15, results open...
Attached the evolution, magenta line is dateline of installation, the arrow pointing towards the present (and future).
My engine was fitted with a S15 filter on 27-March-2022, at a TSO 1195:32.
Oil change is performed every 50h, analysis performed courtesy of AOA.
Latest probe was sent off today with a TSO of 1818:15, results open...
Attached the evolution, magenta line is dateline of installation, the arrow pointing towards the present (and future
).Attachments
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Dan 57
Well Known Member
Thanks Eric. I had not even made the link... now remembering, that was the only oil available during my little Tour passing thru Talkeetna PATK where I did a 50h inspection.
I'm always surprised at the variation on these figures, as I tend to fly pretty regularly throughout the year.
I'm always surprised at the variation on these figures, as I tend to fly pretty regularly throughout the year.
petehowell
Well Known Member
Anecdotal Information - about 900 hrs with K&P
I have been running an S15 on my O-320 for about 900 hours now. I have 2765 hours since new, but 40 hours ago, we overhauled the engine as part of prop strike inspection. I don't have any lab data, but the engine had compressions all above 72 and she used just over a qt of oil in 50 hours between oil changes at the time of teardown - as has been consistent since new. Cruise oil pressure was ~85-90.
When we tore her down, my AP/IA was surprised - it looked "new" inside - cylinders had very little wear, the cam and followers looked great, and the bearings and journals were pristine. His comment was "this would have gone another 2000 hours". Clearly, we don't know that, but there were no indications or observations of excessive wear and everything was very clean inside. The crank got a very light polish from the engine shop and we returned it to service- they also commented that it did not look like a 2700 hr crank. No damage was found as a result of the inspection.
Once again, I know this is not hard data, but only an observation based on longish term use of the K&P filter.
I fly a lot, I use mogas almost exclusively, (holy receding valves Batman) and run LOP most of the time. I have used 20W-50 XC for all but 10 hrs and change oil at 50 hours - these factors may or may not be germane to this discussion.
Sample size = 1. As always, YMMV- maybe at or after 1000 hours, the lesser filtration starts to show itself.
This is not an endorsement, just my observation.
I have been running an S15 on my O-320 for about 900 hours now. I have 2765 hours since new, but 40 hours ago, we overhauled the engine as part of prop strike inspection. I don't have any lab data, but the engine had compressions all above 72 and she used just over a qt of oil in 50 hours between oil changes at the time of teardown - as has been consistent since new. Cruise oil pressure was ~85-90.
When we tore her down, my AP/IA was surprised - it looked "new" inside - cylinders had very little wear, the cam and followers looked great, and the bearings and journals were pristine. His comment was "this would have gone another 2000 hours". Clearly, we don't know that, but there were no indications or observations of excessive wear and everything was very clean inside. The crank got a very light polish from the engine shop and we returned it to service- they also commented that it did not look like a 2700 hr crank. No damage was found as a result of the inspection.
Once again, I know this is not hard data, but only an observation based on longish term use of the K&P filter.
I fly a lot, I use mogas almost exclusively, (holy receding valves Batman) and run LOP most of the time. I have used 20W-50 XC for all but 10 hrs and change oil at 50 hours - these factors may or may not be germane to this discussion.
Sample size = 1. As always, YMMV- maybe at or after 1000 hours, the lesser filtration starts to show itself.
This is not an endorsement, just my observation.
I have read the post and I am trying to get the consensus from the engine gurus. I have used tempest oil filters and during the shortage of filters, I installed a S15 primarily based upon the information published that the S15 seemed to provide superior filtration. That seems to be the opinion of some and not the opinion of others.
For the non technical guys, does there seem to be a consensus if one is better than the other for engine longevity.
For the non technical guys, does there seem to be a consensus if one is better than the other for engine longevity.
I have the Champion reusable in my IO390 and it seems to do the job. Is it better or worse? Nobody can ever actually say for the reason that some engines go the distance and some don't and there are so many variables that no one variable can be credited with all the fault or benefit.
That being said, changing oil on the correct interval and cleaning/changing the filter as required is likely more important the actual brand or type of filter employed so long as they are reasonably similar in function.
That being said, changing oil on the correct interval and cleaning/changing the filter as required is likely more important the actual brand or type of filter employed so long as they are reasonably similar in function.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Did you read the entire thread? I think you'll get an idea of people's opinion if you do.
I think this is one of the many topics in life that that becomes more complex as you look into it in more detail. The good news is it seems like both metal and paper filters are "good enough."
On one hand you want to filter out "big" stuff that will scratch off metal when two parts in close proximity slide with a cushion of oil keeping them separated.
On the other hand you don't want to filter out all the interesting additives that have been developed over the decades to give oil the amazing properties it has to trap contaminants, reduce rust, and change its viscosity.
This is an area for continuing innovation in the aviation world. The big engine guys seem to have figured this out, but they are not so worried about weight and physical space, like we are. They use flow through filters and "bypass" filters to keep the oil clean. Best of both worlds if clean oil is your goal.
I'll bet someone comes up with a good solution for a bypass filter for aircraft in the coming years. It won't be much more complex than our external oil coolers or inverted oil systems.
Back in the ‘80s when aircraft engines didn’t normally have oil filters, I had a FAA/PMA certified version of this toilet paper oil filter on my O-470. It worked great and was trouble free for the life of my engine.
I should have kept a sealed package of the the toilet paper with the FAA/PMA certification paperwork
https://www.amazon.com/Frantz-Filter-Universal-Bypass-Secret/dp/B09GW55FK1/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XI5O67AWVYOG&keywords=Frantz+Filter+Universal+Bypass+Oil+Filter+Kit&qid=1699720200&sprefix=frantz+filter+universal+bypass+oil+filter+kit%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-1
Dan 57
Well Known Member
You're right Michael, it even works on RVs
The Frantz Universal Oil Bypass Kit is a highly efficiency bypass filter; that can help increase engine life over time; reduces engine wear by removing particles ranging from 2 to 20 microns; universal solution fits gasoline and diesel vehicles, RVs and semis
The Frantz Universal Oil Bypass Kit is a highly efficiency bypass filter; that can help increase engine life over time; reduces engine wear by removing particles ranging from 2 to 20 microns; universal solution fits gasoline and diesel vehicles, RVs and semis
JonJay
Well Known Member
Back in the ‘80s when aircraft engines didn’t normally have oil filters, I had a FAA/PMA certified version of this toilet paper oil filter on my O-470. It worked great and was trouble free for the life of my engine.
I should have kept a sealed package of the the toilet paper with the FAA/PMA certification paperwork
https://www.amazon.com/Frantz-Filter-Universal-Bypass-Secret/dp/B09GW55FK1/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XI5O67AWVYOG&keywords=Frantz+Filter+Universal+Bypass+Oil+Filter+Kit&qid=1699720200&sprefix=frantz+filter+universal+bypass+oil+filter+kit%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-1
This thread is going to shllt fast.
I have obtained firm quotes from two test labs equipped for ISO 4548-12. It's looking like we've also secured sponsorship from vendors who have reason to very interested in the data. We'll still need some crowd funding to get 'er done, but we should be able to test four filters...Champion, Tempest, Wix/Napa, and the S15.
More later.
More later.
Very cool. I'll be happy to help out if all the data is going to become available to us.
glider_rider
Active Member
I've been using the S15 filter in my 14 for the past 200h. A few days ago, just after take off noticed a strange smell in the cockpit, something like burning oil. Turned back immediately and landed safely. Flight time from departure to engine shut down was merely 4 minutes. During those 4 minutes I've lost over 3,5 qt of oil. Luckily, the remaining quart was enough to maintain nominal oil pressure. To make things worst the aircraft flew perfectly fine for 20 hours since the last oil change. Looks like, the o-ring in the S15 gradually degraded and then suddenly failed causing this almost catastrophic leak. There were no warning sings.
Googling around I've noticed that my incident is certainly not the first one:
Googling around I've noticed that my incident is certainly not the first one:
Departure Emergency - Challenger Oil Filter
As you are aware, parts availability has been an issue lately. With that in mind, I decided to install a Challenger reusable oil filter on my 1995 Bravo. Actually, an A&P who works at my shop did it for me. I flew the airplane about an hour last weekend with no issues. This morning, as I depa...
mooneyspace.com
Dan 57
Well Known Member
yep, this ain't good...
Along my S15 I ordered 10 spare o-rings... used the first o-ring for about 300 hours, and then, upon trying to install one of them spares, noticed that all had too big a diameter, though the height of the H seal was correct.
Luckily I was saved by rv8ch who provided some o-rings of the right size (thanks again Mickey
).Some engine stuff is critical. This o-ring, same as the Andair gascolator o-ring, is critical. Requires the right size, some lubrication, a proper torque, and safety wiring.
Dugaru
Well Known Member
Drilled a few holes in the cooling fin closest to the connection. A worm gear clamp would probably be easier/better.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Did they sell you 10 wrong size spares or did they somehow get bigger as the years went by?yep, this ain't good...
Along my S15 I ordered 10 spare o-rings... used the first o-ring for about 300 hours, and then, upon trying to install one of them spares, noticed that all had too big a diameter, though the height of the H seal was correct.
Luckily I was saved by rv8ch who provided some o-rings of the right size (thanks again Mickey
Some engine stuff is critical. This o-ring, same as the Andair gascolator o-ring, is critical. Requires the right size, some lubrication, a proper torque, and safety wiring.
Cth6
Well Known Member
Do you mind sharing some additional data about the failure? Is this the original oring (200 hrs)? If not how many hours / cycles (removals) did this o-ring have on it? Before removing the filter, did you see the oring squeezed out from the body?I've been using the S15 filter in my 14 for the past 200h. A few days ago, just after take off noticed a strange smell in the cockpit, something like burning oil. Turned back immediately and landed safely. Flight time from departure to engine shut down was merely 4 minutes. During those 4 minutes I've lost over 3,5 qt of oil. Luckily, the remaining quart was enough to maintain nominal oil pressure. To make things worst the aircraft flew perfectly fine for 20 hours since the last oil change. Looks like, the o-ring in the S15 gradually degraded and then suddenly failed causing this almost catastrophic leak. There were no warning sings.
Googling around I've noticed that my incident is certainly not the first one:
Departure Emergency - Challenger Oil Filter
As you are aware, parts availability has been an issue lately. With that in mind, I decided to install a Challenger reusable oil filter on my 1995 Bravo. Actually, an A&P who works at my shop did it for me. I flew the airplane about an hour last weekend with no issues. This morning, as I depa...mooneyspace.com
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
I did the holes. Looks good; looks like it is something that belongs on the airplane! Easy peasy. Safety wired to where I ran the safety wire for the old style oil filter.
glider_rider
Active Member
Sorry, no pics. After the flight I was not in a mood. Frankly, the fact that I smelled the burning oil and decided to turn back was clearly an act of God. I mean all engine parameters were in the green and there was no logical explanation for my 180 turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, in NASA speak that kind of event is called a high visibility close call
As the filter and ring is concerned: It was the 2nd oil change on that oring. The filter was hand tight + 1/4 turn, safety wired. From the outside the filter looked like nothing was wrong. Upon removal I've noticed a minor dent in the oring, say four thousands of an inch. Just a dent. That was enough.
Dan 57
Well Known Member
It wasn't a matter of "years", but rather 7-8 months... what I've been wondering, is there a difference in size between the Challenger's and the S15's o-rings?
Richard Connell
Well Known Member
Maybe I’ve been living under a rock for a few decades but this hand tight plus xx of a turn business seems rather fraught - especially given the design of the k&p/challenger. Not hard to see how that can go south if you look at the interface.
For me it’s always been lubed with the specified DowCorning (or oil…) then torque to 18-20 foot pounds. Same number for a regular champion/tempest or a k&p/challenger.
For me it’s always been lubed with the specified DowCorning (or oil…) then torque to 18-20 foot pounds. Same number for a regular champion/tempest or a k&p/challenger.
Planecrazy232
Well Known Member
I'd say it was too loose. I've always tightened my S15 to 18 Ft pounds as per the instructions. Seems way tight to me after wrenching for 50 years, but that's what the instructions say. Glad your instincts made you turn around.
glider_rider
Active Member
Appreciate your opinion, if the filter would be too loose it would have been leaking oil for the past 20 hours. It didn't
Just wanted to let folks know, I am selling a similar lifetime oil filter which has been working well in various RVs. The one I sell has a 30 micron absolute filtration. "Absolute" meaning the stainless filter membrane doesn't degrade/compress after hours of use like the paper filters do. Doug Beatty has a great facebook write up on the one he purchased from me. I would add the link but I struggle to find it as I'm not facebook savy. But I can add a link to the filter below. Price already includes shipping and if you need a nipple for application, I have been advising my customers to just pull the one off your old filter.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
Lifetime Oil Filter
Why pay double? Fits Lycoming engines Direct replacement for Champion & Tempest filters Precision CNC-machined billet aluminum body Knurled non-slip grip surface 30-micron absolute filtration Cleanable/reusable surgical-grade stainless steel woven filter element Disassembles without tools for...
cranford-aviation-supply.myshopify.com
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
