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E-MAG Maintenance and reliability?

UrbanM

Active Member
Dear List,
I am running and E MAG and a Slick on an 0-320. Just purchased the plane and the E-MAG worked fine until it didn't. Much of my problem arose from trying to get the E-MAG fixed. I called and emailed the factory and spoke with them and I was informed that it "sounds like I would have to ship the mag to the factory" but that I could try troubleshooting to give them a better idea of what to look at when I ship it to them.
I followed the factory instructions and came up with the same results so I removed the mag and emailed E-MAG to let them know was shipping the mag to them. I got a call instructing me to reinstall the mag and do more testing. And they wanted to know what I set the advance and the timing curve to. I had to explain that I bought the 32 hours ago and everything checked fine at the condition inspection per the E-MAG guidelines on the website. Further, IMHO, It could be dangerous to play with the timing curve unless you are well versed in engine design. I've been up and down the website and I see where to set the initial advance and select from one of 2 curves and that's it.
I called Aircraft Spruce which sells these and they have no tips on service and I can't find anyone locally who can help.
Does anyone here know of someone besides the factory who might be willing to service this thing.
Thanks
Kirk
 
Can you be more specific about the "...worked fine until it didn't..." part?

What is the failure mode you are seeing?
 
So if you are confused, follow the instruction in the manual. I also suggest:
- Install the timing jumper. This will limit your timing advance to 9 degrees when high and low MP. This is a conservative setting.
- I assume your engine data plate lists timing at 25 degrees BTDC. This is what you set your mag to. For the pMag, you set timing with the crank at TDC. The pMag knows this and internally the pMag is set the 25 degrees BTDC.

Setting pMag timing is simple compared to setting timing on your mag.

So what is the problem your are trying to solve?

Side note - I offer the after the sale service at eMag sets the standard for the industry. Whatever happened with you is not typical.
Carl
 
Hello Kirk

We run many P-Mags here in our local RV-Group, many in dual PMag setup.

Mostly the problems arise when not followed the standards of the manufacturer, means:
- Go with spark plugs NBK BR8ES with the solid terminals
- Check the gap on the spark plugs
- Check the cable resistant acc. manual
- Check the connectors (no rust inside, no oxidation inside, on the plug and on the PMag side
- Install the jumper, it is fine for 98% of normal operation
- Perform the setting as the manual describes, check the color of the LED.

Describe your problem much more detailed, so that we can understand and assist.

Also check this: https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=190718
 
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pmags

Kirk, what model of pmag do you have? I assume it must be the current one or the factory would have asked you to upgrade it.

There are a lot of good hints in the pmag manual available here: https://emagair.com/downloads/

As others have said, when I call or write emagair they are extremely helpful, patient, and responsive.

If you don't want to keep the pmag, you can replace it with something else and sell it here on VAF - they go for a good price and sell very quickly.
 
Doubt u have an Emag. More likely a Pmag. Difference??? Lotsa learning available here on VAF. Sounds another Slick mag will be your Simple route to happiness.
 
So it runs terrible compared to the Slick, and actually gains RPM when you turn the Pmag off at run-up?

Sounds like a significantly mis timed Pmag. The EGT difference between it and the Slick will tell you in an instant. What does the EGT do?

Verify the Pmag fault light is not on
Verify the Pmag is timed properly
Check with an automotive timing light to verify dynamic timing

All easy stuff.
 
Thanks for the responses. Here is what I know; Don's Dream Engines 0-320 (experimental version of the E2D) with 9.2 CR. Sensench FP metal prop pitched at 79. Carburetor. E-113 E-MAG installed in 2006 with the note "third generation". The mag has 250 hours and I have made no changes to the timing or the advance curve. Yes, the engine picks up 200 RPM and runs smoother when I shut the E-MAG off.

Here is what I don't know; E-MAG or P-MAG?? When I Google P-MAG I get the E-MAG site which is pretty sparse and there is no mention of the 113 except in the service letters. Aircraft Spruce lists a E-MAG 114 "P" model with the description of having the ability to generate its own power. Is this what is referred to as a P-MAG? I stupidity assumed any E-MAGs have a built in generator. If the 113 does not it is one step closer to the trash can :D. Between the E-MAG website and VAF there is numerous different options for setting the initial timing. I do not know what mine was set to or how to determine which installation procedure is right for my airplane.
I hope it's obvious that I am not an engineer but judging by the Service Letters there may have been firmware and or software updates in the past 14 years that might be applicable to my mag. Is there any way to determine if this is the case? I also wouldn't mind some type of bench test to see if this thing works before I try reinstalling it. Would the software on the E-MAG site provide some type of functionality test?
Standing near a whirling propeller with a timing light is not going to happen and I don't know what to point it at anyway.
To the moderator, sorry for repeating myself. If you find this post redundant please feel free to delete it.
Thanks
Kirk
 
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Surely there is someone around SLC lurking on here. It is a 5 min thing to time that PMAG and that is probably all that is needed along with some wiring checks and pressure tubing check.
 
Have you downloaded the manual for your pmag? Start there.

Next, verify that your initial timing is correct. There are instructions in the manual on how to do that. None of them involve a running engine.

After that, verify whether you do or do not have the "jumper" installed to hold the timing to the more conservative end of the timing curve. If not, I'd install that jumper. Beyond that, you don't need to mess with the timing curve(s). The stock curve with the jumper installed is <arguably> imperfect, but works fine for a huge portion of the fleet.

Also, have you checked your plug wires, plugs, and the electrical connections in the system? Bad wires, plugs, and connections could all cause problems.

Bottom line - cover the basics first, then move on from there.
 
Considering the limited information provided by the OP, I’d first verify the pMag plug wires are going to the correct plugs.

Carl
 
Emag

If it was fine for 32 hours and nothing has been touched or changed, do a timing set, and if it is still not working correctly send it in for service.
Setting the timing is a very simple procedure. Much easier than a magneto. You don’t need a timing light. Check the manual, or a you tube video.
The manufacturer would know by your serial number what it is and what updates it has.
I have one, and that’s what I would do,they have a flat rate for service.
If you do a search on this site for e-mag you will find all kinds of problems early on, like over 10 years ago.
They are very reliable now.
If you don’t want it you will have plenty of takers.
Dave
 
E-mag

Surely there is someone around SLC lurking on here. It is a 5 min thing to time that PMAG and that is probably all that is needed along with some wiring checks and pressure tubing check.
One more thing, if you want to verify if it’s a p-mag or e-mag cut the power off by your main power or pull the breaker to the Emag and if the engine quits when you switch the selector to that mag like when on a run up the engine will quit if it’s a Emag and not a Pmag.
 
If it was fine for 32 hours and nothing has been touched or changed, do a timing set, and if it is still not working correctly send it in for service.......

I have one, and that’s what I would do,they have a flat rate for service.
If you do a search on this site for e-mag you will find all kinds of problems early on, like over 10 years ago.
They are very reliable now.
If you don’t want it you will have plenty of takers.
Dave
This is EXACTLY what I tried to do!! When the ignition still did not work I emailed the company informing them I would like to send the mag in for service and any updates. I then got a call from "Brad" after he read my email. The impression I got was that the updates are not that important (Some are of course) if the unit is working properly and he advised that I do not send the unit to him. I've studied the manual, the troubleshooting guide and the service notes (And also the YT timing video which Brad got a kick out of). All very informative and helpful. The one issue I have with the service notes is that my serial number or manufacture date is not mentioned specifically. That said, at 14 years old I thought it would be worth a look because there have been a few updates that may help my situation. FWIW I have checked SBs and ADs for every serialized component on the aircraft and everything is up to date with the exception of the E-MAG.
My motivation for posting all of this was to see if anyone else has suffered the same or similar failure mode and how they fixed it.
I don't want to upset the people at E-Mag but I am going to send the mag to them anyways and see if they can tell me if it is serviceable. I will post results here.

Edit; Don't wish to throw anyone under the bus. My first call to "Brad" was actually informative and productive. I realize this is a cottage industry and I never intended to waste a business owners time. The E-MAG website is pretty sparse and makes no mention of the 113 (Except the service section). They could save valuable time by making people aware of support level for the 113 or any older products. (Laughing), I am not going to sell this to anyone until I can figure out if it is safe.
 
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E-MAG P-MAG

Hello Kirk; I am going off memory, so I may not have everything I am telling you 100% correct.

The company EMAG makes electronic ignitions for experimental aircraft engines. Their first models did not have a built in alternator, so the ignition would only run on "ship" power. Then, EMAG (the company) came out with the P Model (the PMAG), First P model was the 113, then after improvements came the 114 series. There were some issues along the way. As I recall, the magnet that triggered the hall effect sensor (timing) could come loose - they made a design change (that may be when they went from the 113 to 114 model, I'm not sure). Another issue was under certain (rare) circumstances, the ignition timing would change on its own. EMAG fixed that issue with a sw update. I had a friend with PMAG that had a bearing go out... but Slick Mags can do that too.

I do not run PMAGs - but if you are running 113s that have never been updated or inspected by EMAG since installed, I would think Brad at EMAG (and you) would want to do that.

Are you a member of your local EAA chapter? Unless you are planning to use an A&P to do all the work on this plane, I highly suggest you do this. The EAAers will mentor you, and help you learn how to keep your bird safely flying. I would think, there should be several people at the local chapter that have PMAG knowledge and would be happy to help you trouble shoot and learn. It appears to me, you do not have the knowledge yet - do not do this on your own - find someone to help. I (we) do not want you to be a statistic.

An A&P without PMAG knowledge, may not be much help with troubleshooting your problem. They know mags - and you will be paying him for on the job training... If you do not plan to do your own maint in the future, and use and A&P - you might be better off with slicks.

If you want to learn and do your own work - Read the forums, get drawings from Vans, download AC-43.13, and all the manuals for the devices in your plane. Read. And join your local EAA chapter, get involved, and seek help and knowledge from them.

I am telling you the above based on my experiences as a non builder. I love my plane and working on it. And yes - I had lots of mentoring.

My plane has one slick mag and one Light Speed electronic ignition. Both have been trouble free (Slick due for IRAN this year). I know a lot of guys that fly with PMAG that like them.

I hope this helps you, and let us know how you get this issue resolved.
 
Urban- you are still not giving anyone anything to go on.

DID YOU INSPECT THE FAULT LIGHT? What was the result?
DID YOU VERIFY TIMING? What was the result?

the 113 series is not the latest model, but its hardly rare and is certainly supported by Emagair (I had my last 113 set IRAN'd less than 6 months ago. That said, if yours has been on the airplane for a decade and a half, then the magnet retention SB probably was not done and this could be the source of your newfound problems. You CERTAINLY are way behind on your firmware updates though. Id send them in for IRAN and be done with it.
 
Thanks for the responses. I'll try to answer all the questions. First, I went to do a run up one day and when I did the mag check I got a 200 RPM increase when I shut the E-MAG off and the engine smoothed out.

Kirk, for my own sanity please.
You said "when I shut the E mag off".
If you have the P mag on the Rt side of the engine and switching the magneto switch to the Rt (grounding the Rt P mag/killing it) you now are testing the Lt magneto/Slick. Is that correct?
Or are you grounding the Slick, by switching the magneto switch to the Lt, testing the P mag?
Or no magneto switch at all ?:)
and of course I might have it all wrong.
 
Thanks for the responses. I'll try to answer all the questions. First, I went to do a run up one day and when I did the mag check I got a 200 RPM increase when I shut the E-MAG off and the engine smoothed out.

Kirk, for my own sanity please.
You said "when I shut the E mag off".
If you have the P mag on the Rt side of the engine and switching the magneto switch to the Rt (grounding the Rt P mag/killing it) you now are testing the Lt magneto/Slick. Is that correct?
Or are you grounding the Slick, by switching the magneto switch to the Lt, testing the P mag?
Or no magneto switch at all ?:)
and of course I might have it all wrong.
GOFT,
One of my RV6 buddies ask the same question :D. Yes, During the mag check, I turn off one ignition system at a time and note the RPM drop. The E/P mag is on the right side. When I had the E-Mag switch OFF (Running on the Slick) the RPM INCREASED by 200. When I shut off the Slick mag the engine would run but at a reduced RPM (Compared to the Slick) and would not produce anything near takeoff power.
I ran the engine throughout the entire RPM range on both systems one at a time for troubleshooting purposes. It ran like Doo doo on the E-Mag.
 
... Sorry I cannot help any further...

Checking the fault LED takes about 30 seconds after you remove the upper cowl. This will tell you if the magnet is out of position or there is a gross timing error.

Retiming the unit takes about 5 minutes after you read the manual.

Performing an IRAN on your unit takes as long as needed to remove the units, place them in a box, and send them to Brad.

...I have more time invested in the responses to this thread. At some point you need to step up and do something to help yourself.
 
Hello Kirk; I am going off memory, so I may not have everything I am telling you 100% correct.

The company EMAG makes electronic ignitions for experimental aircraft engines. Their first models did not have a built in alternator, so the ignition would only run on "ship" power. Then, EMAG (the company) came out with the P Model (the PMAG), First P model was the 113, then after improvements came the 114 series. There were some issues along the way. As I recall, the magnet that triggered the hall effect sensor (timing) could come loose - they made a design change (that may be when they went from the 113 to 114 model, I'm not sure). Another issue was under certain (rare) circumstances, the ignition timing would change on its own. EMAG fixed that issue with a sw update. I had a friend with PMAG that had a bearing go out... but Slick Mags can do that too.

I do not run PMAGs - but if you are running 113s that have never been updated or inspected by EMAG since installed, I would think Brad at EMAG (and you) would want to do that.

Are you a member of your local EAA chapter? Unless you are planning to use an A&P to do all the work on this plane, I highly suggest you do this. The EAAers will mentor you, and help you learn how to keep your bird safely flying. I would think, there should be several people at the local chapter that have PMAG knowledge and would be happy to help you trouble shoot and learn. It appears to me, you do not have the knowledge yet - do not do this on your own - find someone to help. I (we) do not want you to be a statistic.

An A&P without PMAG knowledge, may not be much help with troubleshooting your problem. They know mags - and you will be paying him for on the job training... If you do not plan to do your own maint in the future, and use and A&P - you might be better off with slicks.

If you want to learn and do your own work - Read the forums, get drawings from Vans, download AC-43.13, and all the manuals for the devices in your plane. Read. And join your local EAA chapter, get involved, and seek help and knowledge from them.

I am telling you the above based on my experiences as a non builder. I love my plane and working on it. And yes - I had lots of mentoring.

My plane has one slick mag and one Light Speed electronic ignition. Both have been trouble free (Slick due for IRAN this year). I know a lot of guys that fly with PMAG that like them.

I hope this helps you, and let us know how you get this issue resolved.
Tim,
Thanks for the history and the encouragement! My backround is Jets and racing sailplanes and all the kits I have built so far were powered by Rotax. Looking forward to working on and learning more about the Lycs. The 6 I own was built by an engineer and I was privileged to assist with the condition inspection (Which constituted my pre-buy as well). I found the emag/pmag easier to install and time than the traditional Slick or Bendix. The mag timing tool stayed in the toolbox! Not ready to rewrite the timing curve yet but I am sure you have already done this with your LS ignition.
I am blessed to have a friend who is an AI on Biz Jets and Turbine Choppers. He signs off everything I do on my certified planes and he is a hard *** stickler (I mean that in a good way, Keeps me out of trouble). And the guy is a craftsman and someone I look up to.
The local EAA Chapter guys are great but with my schedule it is not an option. Maybe someday.
The E/P-Mag is off to see the wizard in Texas via FedEx. Should know soon if I own a paperweight or not. Will keep you posted.
Kirk
 
While you wait for the PMAG to come back to you, do some checking:
1. Ship power to pmag present
2. Pmag ground to engine bolt somewhere, not a long run back to firewall or anywhere else
3. Manifold pressure hose intact, not split or loose
4. small Wires on the PMAG not loose
5. Each spark plug wire to/from the PMAG has the correct ohm resistance reading (not sure the number), but more importantly it stays the same with a lot of wiggling/bending
6. Each spark plug run by PMAG is right type and right gap with the right adapter.

Then when it returns it will be easy to put in place, set TDC, and set the PMAG timing with the rest all checked.
 
I sent my PMAG to Brad a few months ago and it was inspected, updated, and returned in less than a week. If they find a problem I'm sure they will let you know. I'm nobody special but they handled it marvelously.
 
Performing an IRAN on your unit takes as long as needed to remove the units, place them in a box, and send them to Brad.

...I have more time invested in the responses to this thread. At some point you need to step up and do something to help yourself.

And I have more time invested reading your response:D. The impression I got from Brad and reading the Service Notes (Which you can find here https://emagair.com/service-notes/ ) is that not all Firmware or Software updates are necessary. This might be why he encouraged me not to send it in. Just a guess.
When you posted that you had your 113 IRANed that is not enough information to go on. Was the Firmware updated? What version software did you end up with? Time in service? Any repairs?
Good news is that Brad emailed this morning and my serial number 113 is supported! He could not tell if my serial number has an internal alternator because it was an option back in those days. If not he can add one for 350 spendoolies. I consider this a small price for redundancy.
 
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Responding to post #18

GOFT says that he assumes that turning the key to RT grounds the right magneto. No-one responded.

I believe when I turn my key to RT, the left mag is grounded and I'm running on the right mag.

If this is the case then GOFT is mis-diagnosing which magneto runs rough.

Am I wrong and just confusing the issue further?
 
GOFT says that he assumes that turning the key to RT grounds the right magneto. No-one responded.

I believe when I turn my key to RT, the left mag is grounded and I'm running on the right mag.

If this is the case then GOFT is mis-diagnosing which magneto runs rough.

Am I wrong and just confusing the issue further?

Nope, you are correct. I was wrong. Selecting Left, grounds the Right and runs the Left. Thanks for pointing it out.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ght-training-magazine/ol-how-it-works-p-leads
 
Pmag

Sounds like goft was reading his issues on the wrong mag.
Looks like there was no issue with the Emag and the problem was with his slick mag.
 
Wrong mag

Just to clarify, GOFT never had trouble with his P mags.
He was just clueless on how the mag switch grounds. Cerebral problem.:)
The OP is the one with the mechanical problem.
 
The OP is the one with the mechanical problem......

In the sense that I don't understand mechanical issues :D
While I am waiting for the Mag to be upgraded and serviced I have been at the hangar making sure the rest of the components are functioning (Per JDA's reminder, Thanks) and a question has come up.
The Slick mag is controlled by a traditional Mag/starter switch and the E Mag is controlled by a separate (Independent) toggle switch. In other words, The Off-L-R-Both switch can be shut off and the engine will run on the E-Mag if the toggle switch is on (And vise versa). I ask the builder why he did it this way but I don't recall the answer. On my Rotax powered ships the CDI ignition switches were toggled so I didn't mind this arrangement but I can't see why I couldn't switch the P lead from the toggle switch to the traditional Mag/starter switch. The Slick is a 4373 which is an impulse mag so I would NOT need to remove the jumper (If installed) from the traditional switch per the Emagair installation instructions.
I start the engine with both mags on anyways and don't have an issue. What am I missing?
Thanks for everyone's patience with my silly questions.
 
Lots of people have both connected to the starter switch. Both mags and P/E-Mags stop firing if grounded. The difference is that the P-Mag doesn't send the spark to ground like the regular mag, it just stops firing - thus no need for a shielded wire.

You could also replace the old starter switch with another toggle to ground the Slick when you want it off.
 
The Slick mag is controlled by a traditional Mag/starter switch and the E Mag is controlled by a separate (Independent) toggle switch. In other words, The Off-L-R-Both switch can be shut off and the engine will run on the E-Mag if the toggle switch is on (And vise versa). I ask the builder why he did it this way but I don't recall the answer.
The answer is probably that the plane was built with two traditional mags first, and when the eMag was installed the person installing it didn't understand electricity either and put a separate switch in.
 
Lots of people have both connected to the starter switch. Both mags and P/E-Mags stop firing if grounded. The difference is that the P-Mag doesn't send the spark to ground like the regular mag, it just stops firing - thus no need for a shielded wire.

You could also replace the old starter switch with another toggle to ground the Slick when you want it off.

Ray,
Thanks for the reminder. I used the Toggle switch again for power and wired the P lead to the traditional Mag/Start switch. Had a slight problem with the mag switch. Showed grounded to the P lead no mater the switch position. Turns out the starter light (Installed by the builder) was somehow causing the right position of the switch to show grounded on the Ohm meter and in operation. I fiddled with this all morning and my next door neighbor found the starter light grounding to the instrument panel and interfering with the operation of the mag switch (ACS A-510-2) within minutes. Piece of advise; Rent a hangar next to an electrical engineer. We rewired the light and everything works fine. With all power shut off the Pmag idles at 800RPM and I picked up 50 static RPM. The factory upgraded the 14 YO circuit board for free and the upgrade to Pmag was very reasonable.
 
Here is what I don't know; E-MAG or P-MAG?? When I Google P-MAG I get the E-MAG site which is pretty sparse and there is no mention of the 113 except in the service letters. Aircraft Spruce lists a E-MAG 114 "P" model with the description of having the ability to generate its own power. Is this what is referred to as a P-MAG? I stupidity assumed any E-MAGs have a built in generator. If the 113 does not it is one step closer to the trash can :D.

The company that makes your mag is E-Mag. They used to be called E-mags (and had no self-power...if your ship power died, you were coming down when your battery ran out), but when E-mag (the company) came out with the "P" model (P114, with alternator), everybody started calling them P-mags. Now, if you say you have E-mags, it's generally assumed that you have the original version, whereas what you actually might have is the E-mag's P model.



. ...
 
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Now, if you say you have E-mags, it's generally assumed that you have the original version.

It's a Pmag now. The factory upgraded it with the alternator. According to the factory the "E" version was not very popular after the "P" version was introduced so it was dropped. What is nice is that my 113 2006 version is now the same as a current version 114 Pmag.
If anyone here has the old Emag it's a cheap quick upgrade to a P. Added redundancy in the same package.
 
There is something fundamentally wrong with having switch labels that don’t tell the truth. If the ignition switch says L and R then it should be switching the left and right ignitions as labelled. There should not be any secret knowledge required. I would bet that the poster who guessed that the airplane started life with 2 traditional mags is correct and the pmag wiring was a bandaid job. That should be fixed. Every label on the panel should be accurate. You just never know when in the heat of the moment you will forget how you or the previous builder did something and misdiagnose an issue when it counts. Fixing this particular issue is dead easy and I strongly encourage the owner to do so and in the process become more familiar with how his airplane is wired. I’m not pointing fingers or blaming anyone, just fix it.

One thing about my homebuilt that I love is that I know how everything is built and how it works (well, for the most part). Knowing your airplane is so important. I’m sure bad or missing labelling has been a factor in accidents.
 
Sorry if I wasn't more clear. The plane was wired correctly from the time it was built (With the Emag). And the builder was a labeler which helped save guessing. For whatever reason he did not use the P lead on the Emag during the mag check and instead cut power to the mag through the power switch to the Emag. The problem arose when I converted the Emag to a Pmag and tried the same approach. Cutting ships power to a Pmag via the switch did nothing if I was above 800 RPM (Laughing, it actually took me a minute to figure out why it wasn't shutting off because I wasn't used to the Pmag). I had intended to use the P lead through the traditional mag switch for this purpose and this was when I discovered the idiosyncrasy with the starter light. Moving the power for the starter light solved the issue and the mag switch works perfectly. I also have the toggle switch to cut ships power to the Pmag. This switch is actually shown on the Emagair schematic. From what I understand this is necessary if you ever hook up a battery charger. Let me reiterate none of this was a "band aid". I don't do band aid fixes and I don't fly airplanes where others have done band aid repairs.
Now, As for a light telling me my starter is engaged, That is open to debate. As Scott said, I don't like stuff on the panel that doesn't work so I took the time to find a working solution for the light. I am somewhat certain I would be able to tell if the starter failed to disengage on a piston engine but I am used to jets where this would most likely cause a catastrophic failure. So the light stays ;).
Thanks for the input.
 
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