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Stupid question regarding heated pitot tubes

AX-O

Well Known Member
I am in the process of selecting a heated pitot tube and a mounting bracket. I came across this add. The note does not make sense to me. Why would I buy a heated pitot tube that cannot support flight in know icing conditions? By the way I would not put myself or passengers in that situation.


?The Gretz GA-1000 uses imbedded electronics to provide heat to the pitot in cold temperature conditions. By means of a control module (mounted within 18" of the pitot), the heating element is automatically turned on/off according to conditions. A panel mount 3-color LED display board provides the pilot with its current operating status. Includes 15 ft display board cable and complete instructions & recommendations. Note: Not to be used in known icing conditions. Requires pitot bracket for installation (not incl). For experimental aircraft only.?
 
I have the Gretz unit you describe. I believe the disclaimer is pretty much a CYA issue for the manufacture. After all, it isn't certified for use in certified aircraft.
 
Supposedly Dynon is comiong out with a cheaper unit soon, so maybe you can wait a little bit. $550 for the Gretz and mnt is a little steep. Buy the Safeair mnt, some wire and tubing and hold off on the pitot. Plus the Gretz is UGLY (I think it looks like an Uncirc#$@%# P#@$%), I SEEN ONE IN AN COMPLETELY UNSOLICITED SPAM E-MAIL, THATS HOW I KNOW, and doesn't even fit its own mnt. out of the box.
 
Totally a CYA thing - I can only begin to imagine the liability if they didn't put that in there. I'm surprised it dosen't have DANGER: HOT in the ad.

Not to mention that it probably isn't a good idea to fly into known icing conditions in an RV. (unless your adding the heated leading edge mod)
 
The who plane

IS not allowed in "known icing conditions" because it does not have deicing equipment...My best guess is that as every kit built aircraft is also not equipped with de-ice then it is a limitation the Gretz can put on their tube without affecting sales..So why wouldn't they.

Of course my own statement above raises the question when is an experimental "certified for flight into known icing"?...is it like when the builder decides that it is...a bit like flight into IMC??

Probably a moot point for all us though.

Incidently with the Dynon you will still need the Gretz mount which was about $120 I believe so cost wise it might be a wash??

Frank
 
It's key to remember anti-icing (like most pitot heat) is not the same as de-icing. You'll find similar disclaimers in POHs of most popular certified GA aircraft as well (at least those which aren't certified for flight into known icing).
 
This one works with the current Dynon so I am just assuming that it will work with the heated. I guess it might be a good idea to ask first.

You might be right about it being a wash anyway. With all the time its been taking to bring it to market they may have to charge more than originally expected.

http://www.safeair1.com/index.htm

$47.50
 
Heated Pitots on (many) RV's is a waste of money

AX-O said:
Note: Not to be used in known icing conditions. Requires pitot bracket for installation (not incl). For experimental aircraft only.?
If you search "pitot" and my member name you will read my "stand" or rant-N-rave.

I will not repeat the whole rant, but to summarize you can NEVER fly in KNOWN ICE. Never-ever-never-never-never. Illegal, dangerous and dumb.


Fact, a heated pitot is NOT required for IFR flight. It is not required for any thing. If you are either NOT in cloud (visible mosture say less than 1 mile vis) and/or the temp is not at or below freezing you will not get ice.End or the story. Avoid clouds or freezing temps (0C to -10C clear, -10C to -20 rime). So if its warmer than 32F or colder than -4F - NO ICE.

Also so what if you get a trace of light ice. A non heated pitot will work fine. What if you ice over the pitot? Use your GPS ground speed, get out of it ASAP, land and kick your self in the........for making un-wise PIC decisions.

My OPINION or comment is DO YOU REALLY NEED A HEATED PITOT? I know VFR guys that install them because they look cool or the C172 they flew had one.

If you are flying in ice in a light single engine, single pilot plane you are doing it wrong. I have flown LOTS in ice flying as a CFI-Inst and part 135 Freight dog in tired old twins, many with "known ICE" approved equip. I just would avoid any ice like the pledge.

Now if you are a hard core IFR pilot than by all means get a heated pitot. However is you survive icing, let it be very clear from a FAA, NTSB legal stand point if you get INTO IT, you are now in KNOWN ICE. You are basically illegal because NOW YOU KNOW. If there is no emergency than fine. However I would not volunteer PIREPS that you go ICIING in your RV to ATC or FSS. People have been severely penalized. Now we all know flying IFR you get that little frost over the windscreen or trace or light ice on sharp objects, no big deal and a heated pitot is not going to do much.

Bottom line HEATED PITOT is a semi-oxymoron for a single engine airplane that can't fly in ice. It is not like a low time IFR pilot risking his/her life by flying in low IFR, legal but low. ICE is a 100% no, no and you don't have a legal or safe choice IMHO. Last heated pitot's are very expensive, draw big current and add weight and complexity and drag.

PLEASE STAY OUT OF ICE OR FLYING IN CONDITIONS THAT INDICATE ICING (Sigmets, Airmets, Pireps, FA's for icing and temps in the freezing range with cloud at intended altitudes.) Have I got into sticky situations? Yes and they where in known ICE planes. I have seen turboprops slow down 10 kts and nose pitch down (requiring more nose up trim) in the matter of 20 seconds. That is a twin with +2000 hp. I would not want to do that in a 180 hp RV.

It's one of my pet peeves. So when you read a heated pitot is not for KNOW ICE, than you know why, its not a smart thing to do.
 
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Holy sticker shock Batman!!!

I just ordered my wings so I know I have to start thinking about things like the Pitot Tube but 500 plus bucks for 4 inches of heated tube seems crazy.


..........until I started to look around the net at the certified stuff that runs as much as 2 grand!!!

$550 for the Gretz and mounting bracket will be just fine although I may be seen muttering under my breath for a few weeks.



Back on topic, I wouldn't worry about the disclaimer, everything aviation related has to have that kind of warning unless they've gone through the horridly expensive FAA testing to prove it's function. There are TKS systems out there that are virtually identical to certified systems but unless they go through the same test on each airframe it's NOT certified and must say "not certified for known icing".

Also, when I wa looking at alternatives they all seem to draw similar amps so the Gretz should be just as hot/safe for short icing encounters as are common in IFR flight.

So in short, by the time the Gretz gets iced up so bad as to screw up your IAS reading you'll probably be much too busy dealing with the airframe icing and prayer to really care much. :eek:
 
George: You're probably right on the money on this one with one caveat. Glass panels, if that's what's being installed, sometimes depend on airspeed info for accurate attitude display. I don't understand the details but the Dynon needs this (and there was a thread about it a little while ago).

So icing up the pitot could result in loss of accurate attitude data too. I agree that none of us should be flying in icing conditions but sometimes weather changes suddenly (or you screw up) and it happens anyway. I guess that's what backups are for :)

edit: As Paul and others point out, the GRT does not require airspeed for accurate attitude data
 
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One correction John - GRT does NOT "require" airspeed for a good attitude solution - I believe that it uses it, but it does fine without it. I have no experience with Dynon, so can't comment on that.

That said, I fundamentally agree with the fact that you don't really need a heated pitot for what we do in RV's I have one because, well, I had one for free, and it's a blade-style Piper that looks cool! If the heating element dies in it....I probably won't replace it.

Paul
 
I kind of agree with GMC somewhat but I do plan on IFR in my 8. And with all it will take to make a decent, fun, and confident IFR plane out of the 8 an extra 300 bucks to heat the gretz isn't much in the long run. And long pointy things are usually the first to ice up (so I hear since I am not even rated yet so pardon opinions from the uninitiated here).

So I will likely have a heated pitot.


And as far as RV's and IFR and ice go, I think a plane with a 2000 fpm climb (if not far more in a zoom when first encountering ice from cruise speed) is a good platform. What do you think? My plan is obviously to get the **** out of the ice as fast as I can but I'd like a working ASI as I crank back for the greatest climb I can get???


Or put another way, did you EVER turn the Pitot heat off in your 2000 hp Turboprop while IFR and near icing conditions?? ;) If not then it's not worthless in a plane used for IFR.
 
[QUOTE/=Or put another way, did you EVER turn the Pitot heat off in your 2000 hp Turboprop while IFR and near icing conditions?? ;) If not then it's not worthless in a plane used for IFR.[/QUOTE]

Mater of fact I never did, because it was wired to be on all the time in the turbine airplanes that I flew. Your "pointy thing" theory is correct, the pitot is one of the first things to collect ice. I know this because I have had the heat quit on an airliner. The system plugged and failed. Fortunatly, there were two independent static systems and pitots.

And yes, I have a heated pitot on my -8.

John Clark
RV* N18U
KSBA
 
I'm stickin' with heat!

George's points about keeping our aircraft out of serious ice are well made.

However, I've had to live without a heated pitot while waiting for Dynon to finally release its heated AOA model. Finally, I have given up and am putting a standard heated unit in the airplane. Why?

Because, twice now, operating IFR during the spring and fall, I have managed to pick up the slightest bit of ice during and climb or descent that iced the tube. The airframe picked up a very light dusting, and I was flying where I could see the tops and I had good, non-ice-forming temps below the deck. Absolutely no risk, IMHO.

But with the pitot iced, flying above the freezing level, it stayed iced. The first time, likely as the result of a small leak in the system, IAS slowly dropped to 40 or 50 knots. Not a big deal at cruise, but the TruTrak autopilot didn't like it, and kept kicking off. (I know: call the waaaaaambulance.) The tube didn't fully clear itself until near landing.

As for the Dynons, they were fine. Dynon appears to use airspeed for short-term adjustments in pitch, but if I recall correctly, the pitch bar parked itself about a dot higher (maybe lower) than normal, but responded to actual pitch changes corrrectly.

In the end, if you're going to fly any IFR you're going to find yourself in conditions where you could get icing. Your mission should always be to get the heck out of it, but thinking you can avoid all icing forever and still file IFR is an impractical position, in my view.

I'm no happier than anyone else about spending $500 for a heated stick, but it's a necessary evil unless you plan to (and can always guarantee that you WILL) stay VFR.

--Marc
 
Ironflight said:
One correction John - GRT does NOT "require" airspeed for a good attitude solution - I believe that it uses it, but it does fine without it.

Paul


Not that I need to but here is the thread that backs this up. I emailed the guys at GRT and posted the response here. Page 2


http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=14224

I was going to make pretty much the same point as KPmarc but he beat me to it and I would like to add that buyers of used RV's often request heated pitots (who am I to argue with a customer). I hope to never ever ever have to sell mine but I live in MI and the economy here sucks so I need to be prepared. Housing market here is so bad I would have to sell my house for less than it cost in materials alone.
 
Pitot Heat

JMCJETPILOT

I couldn't agree more. Pitot heat in an RV....????? not required, not needed, and not even a good idea. The loss of the A/S indicator due to an iced over pitot, will be the least of a foolish RV pilot's problems. I only hope spending 500 bucks won't purchase a single minute of security for them, and they will not be tempted to fly in icing conditions.

On my private pilot checkride the FAA check airman placed a cover over the airspeed indicator for the last half of the flight. That included landings. It really was no big deal.

Both RV's in my hanger (some how, on different days) managed to takeoff with the pitot covers still in place. One pilot had thousands of hours, the other a couple hundred. The results were the same for each. No big deal.

Ice on wings, tail, prop...............BIG DEAL!
 
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Danny King said:
JMCJETPILOT

I couldn't agree more. Pitot heat in an RV....????? not required, not needed, and not even a good idea. The loss of the A/S indicator due to an iced over pitot, will be the least of a foolish RV pilot's problems. I only hope spending 500 bucks won't purchase a single minute of security for them, and they will not be tempted to fly in icing conditions.

On my private pilot checkride the FAA check airman placed a cover over the airspeed indicator for the last half of the flight. That included landings. It really was no big deal.

Both RV's in my hanger (some how, on different days) managed to takeoff with the pitot covers still in place. One pilot had thousands of hours, the other a couple hundred. The results were the same for each. No big deal.

Ice on wings, tail, prop...............BIG DEAL!
I disagree, anytime I'm in IFR conditions the Pitot Heat goes on, no matter the OAT, why take that chance? I'm planning on some IFR with my -7, so it'll get a heated Pitot.
 
Why spend all that money on a new heated pitot? I bought mine from Dodson, second hand from a wrecked Cessna for around $ 100.00
It was easy to put it on the wing and it works just fine. I kinda like the looks of a heated pitot. Yeah, I admit it's there just for the looks. Better esthetics that the bended tube supplied by Van?s. I do a fair amount of IFR flying and agree that we must avoid ice as much as we can. However, if you find yourself in the situation unexpectedly, it's nice to know your pitot won't freeze over...
This is what it looks like..
cimg2205xl7.jpg


The mast may be a little short, keeping the pitot away from undisturbed air. It's easy to lengthen the mast later if it proves necessary.

Edit February 11th: I found the bill from Dodson today, actually paid $ 125.00 for the heated pitot. Partnumber of the pitot in the picture is 0721105-27 and it came with a mounting plate and mast attached to it.
Hope it helps.
 
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Don't install a heated pitot because it's not mandatory and we shouldn't be flying into ice? Now, I'm relatively young, and not an RV'er (yet), so I'm writing with utmost humility. But I can't get there.

I'm completely on board with everything that's been said about needing to avoid ice. Absolutely! I hate ice as much as I love approaches. But stuff happens. Weather changes. And pilots get caught out.

Who can say they've never seen that little glisten on the leading edge? I really wish I could say that. Really. But I can't. And I can't guarantee that I won't again, despite my most concerted and diligent efforts. And when that pit returns to my stomach and it's time to get the heck outta there, you can be certain that funky little probe cookin' away on the wing is worth every penny. Yeah, I got bigger problems at that moment. But that doesn't mean I want a few extra small ones.

Otherwise, why install a five-point harness? It'll just encourage you to crash. And we're not supposed to do that either. :D

Besides, I caught a bug in the tube once climbing out. Not a total blockage, but got some goofy readings. Flipped the heat, burnt the sucker away. Worked great.
 
In my work plane, I'll get a yellow caution light if either pitot heat fails (it's a 4000hp turboprop). It doesn't care if it's blue skies, or a dark and snowy night, the caution light comes on.

I had the pitot heat fail in a King Air once. There was trace amounts on the wing, but the pitot was completely blocked with innaccurate airspeed indications.

If I were building an IFR airplane, it wouldn't be even a hesitation, heated pitot for sure. Maybe once they are 110% accurate at forecasting weather, including enroute temperature at altitude along the entire route and possible diversions. Or I can equip the plane with a weather machine :D

When accidentally encountering icing conditions, the first concern should be how to get out of it, not to worry about potential airspeed errors as well. How many problems is the pilot capable of handling simultaniously? Heated pitot provides one less thing to compound the already dangerous situation.

Another point to consider, heated pitot and static ports are legally required equipment when operating IFR in Canada, even if the plane isn't allowed into known icing conditions.
 
If you search "pitot" and my member name you will read my "stand" or rant-N-rave.

I will not repeat the whole rant, but to summarize you can NEVER fly in KNOWN ICE. Never-ever-never-never-never. Illegal, dangerous and dumb.


Fact, a heated pitot is NOT required for IFR flight. It is not required for any thing. If you are either NOT in cloud (visible mosture say less than 1 mile vis) and/or the temp is not at or below freezing you will not get ice.End or the story. Avoid clouds or freezing temps (0C to -10C clear, -10C to -20 rime). So if its warmer than 32F or colder than -4F - NO ICE.

Also so what if you get a trace of light ice. A non heated pitot will work fine. What if you ice over the pitot? Use your GPS ground speed, get out of it ASAP, land and kick your self in the........for making un-wise PIC decisions.

I am still a relatively new IFR pilot. However, on two occasions so far in IFR conditions, both above 32, I have had my airspeed drop and return to normal after turning on the pitot heat. In both occasions I had no airframe ice and was on high alert looking for it, as the conditions were getting near the point that it was a risk. Both were in thin layers and had many options should icing have developed.

It is quite apparent to me that icing inside the pitot will occur long before airframe icing and at more liberal temperatures than airframe icing. Not saying that they are required, only that pitots are magnets for ice.

Larry
 
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I am still a relatively new IFR pilot. However, on two occasions so far in IFR conditions, both above 32, I have had my airspeed drop and return to normal after turning on the pitot heat. In both occasions I had no airframe ice and was on high alert looking for it, as the conditions were getting near the point that it was a risk. Both were in thin layers and had many options should icing have developed.

It is quite apparent to me that icing inside the pitot will occur long before airframe icing and at more liberal temperatures than airframe icing. Not saying that they are required, only that pitots are magnets for ice.

Larry

Hmm.

I was taught that you could get water droplets inside the pitot that would clog things up, and that pitot heat would take care of those. I've had airspeed fluctuations in clouds above freezing, too...

But if the ambient temperature is above freezing, what would drop the temperature so that water would freeze, especially *inside* the pitot tube? There's no airflow inside the pitot tube, only ram air pressure at the front. And there's no venturi to drop the temperature like in a carburetor.

I'd guess water droplets, but somebody probably knows more than I.
 
ice

From Skybrary online:

"In "cold" clouds, where the temperature is below 0?C, ice crystals and supercooled droplets co-exist. In these 'mixed' clouds, the air is close to being saturated with respect to liquid water, but is super-saturated (an unstable phase) with respect to ice. Consequently, in mixed clouds, ice crystals grow from the vapour phase much more rapidly than do the nearby droplets. This is usually known as the Bergeron - Findeisen or "ice crystal" process.

At temperatures between 0?C and -15?C most clouds are composed of supercooled water droplets.

Between -15?C and -40?C most clouds contain a mixture of ice crystals and supercooled water droplets.

Below -40?C almost all clouds consist entirely of ice crystals, with the notable exception of Cumulonimbus (Cb) clouds, in particular the ?anvil clouds?.

Supercooled droplets are in an unstable state and usually start to freeze when brought into contact with ice crystals and particles with a similar structure to an ice particle (freezing nucleus). The ice crystals may form directly from water vapour in the cloud or fall into the cloud from above."
 
oh, and

"If you are either NOT in cloud (visible mosture say less than 1 mile vis) and/or the temp is not at or below freezing you will not get ice.End or the story. Avoid clouds or freezing temps (0C to -10C clear, -10C to -20 rime). So if its warmer than 32F or colder than -4F - NO ICE."

You have obviously never flown an MD-88...
 
Sometimes a pilot will end up in a situation they didn't expect to be in. The cause could be a benign as an inaccurate weather forecast.
 
Hmm.

I was taught that you could get water droplets inside the pitot that would clog things up, and that pitot heat would take care of those. I've had airspeed fluctuations in clouds above freezing, too...

But if the ambient temperature is above freezing, what would drop the temperature so that water would freeze, especially *inside* the pitot tube? There's no airflow inside the pitot tube, only ram air pressure at the front. And there's no venturi to drop the temperature like in a carburetor.

I'd guess water droplets, but somebody probably knows more than I.

The tip of the Pitot is a small protrusion. These are the first objects to get ice. Ask an old piper pilot and the first indication of ice will be on the small OAT probe sticking out of the windshield. The icing experts i have read continue to call 35* as the upper end of icing temps. In both of my cases, my OAT was reading 34 or 35 degrees. 32 is not a rigid magic number for all cases. SLD helps debunk that myth.

Water isn't likely or I would have seen issues when flying in heavy rain.

Larry
 
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A lot of great conversation, I agree keep these airplanes out and away from icing conditions. Those who have experienced it won?t ever do it again and the others aren?t here to give their opinion.

Back to the topic of pitot heat, I feel it is unnecessary if you stay out of icing conditions, but if you lost your pitot indications you also have GPS ground speed and could use that, probable in multiple displays to maintain safe airspeed within hand grenade accuracy.

Keep it simple, light, and maintenance free.
 
I am firmly in the pitot heat club for any airplane that will fly IFR or even just do IFR training, if for nothing more than good situational awareness and habit patterns. I know examiners that's won't do IFR ticket rides or IPC's without it.

CU's and CB's, by the very nature of convection and still long before they may or may not become dangerous can have large internal temp swings in relative instants within them or below them. Frontal activity can have large swings at the same altitude from one side of the boundary to the other. Light nearly invisible snow squalls can be accidentally encountered in otherwise VFR conditions. Lots of bad unplanned things can happen enroute, especially at night.

Heat is cheap, low maint insurance that can save lives just through training, thought process, and sound habit patterns whether it is ever used for real or not.
 
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yep

"...Heat is cheap, low maint insurance that can save lives just through training, thought process, and sound habit patterns whether it is ever used for real or not..."

Exactly.
 
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