Aircraft Purchase Plans ? Please Play Devils Advocate

Hey ? I?d love some thoughts as to the logic of my plans. From my perspective it seems like a solid plan, but I?d love to hear from those with more experience to see if there is some flaw that I?m not seeing.

I have always wanted to build a plane. After a ton of research, I really want to build an RV-7A or a RV-9A. However, I?m not sure that it makes the most sense at this time. I currently am a 35 year old student pilot with 30 or so hours under my belt. I want the RV, but based on my skill level, a ?trainer? type aircraft would make more sense in the immediate future.

Here?s my tentative plan;

1) Buy a ~$25,000 Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, etc this spring/summer ?08
2)Pay it off over the next 12 months.
3) Order an RV kit - Summer/Fall-09
4) Build RV Kit ? 2-3 years.
5) When ready for an engine for the RV, sell the 150/Tomahawk and use the funds for a new engine.

Seems to me like I can find a 150/152/Tomahawk with low hours (<600) on the engine in the $25K range. Assuming I fly a hundred or so hours a year for the next 2-3 years, I imagine that I should be able to get what I paid for it back out (or close to it) when I sell.

If I go this route, I would have a solid plane to fly for the next few years, and by the time the RV is finished, I will have several hundred hours under my belt which should help with insurance.

Has anyone else gone this route, and are there any pitfalls that I?m not seeing?

Thanks,
UnPossible

Buy the tail kit now! Start building asap. I think the tail kit is pretty cheap so it shouldn't put to big of a dent in the other aircraft purchase.

UnPossible said:

Hey ? I?d love some thoughts as to the logic of my plans. From my perspective it seems like a solid plan, but I?d love to hear from those with more experience to see if there is some flaw that I?m not seeing.

I have always wanted to build a plane. After a ton of research, I really want to build an RV-7A or a RV-9A. However, I?m not sure that it makes the most sense at this time. I currently am a 35 year old student pilot with 30 or so hours under my belt. I want the RV, but based on my skill level, a ?trainer? type aircraft would make more sense in the immediate future.

Here?s my tentative plan;

1) Buy a ~$25,000 Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, etc this spring/summer ?08
2)Pay it off over the next 12 months.
3) Order an RV kit - Summer/Fall-09
4) Build RV Kit ? 2-3 years.
5) When ready for an engine for the RV, sell the 150/Tomahawk and use the funds for a new engine.

Seems to me like I can find a 150/152/Tomahawk with low hours (<600) on the engine in the $25K range. Assuming I fly a hundred or so hours a year for the next 2-3 years, I imagine that I should be able to get what I paid for it back out (or close to it) when I sell.

If I go this route, I would have a solid plane to fly for the next few years, and by the time the RV is finished, I will have several hundred hours under my belt which should help with insurance.

Has anyone else gone this route, and are there any pitfalls that I?m not seeing?

Thanks,
UnPossible

Click to expand...

That's almost exactly what I did. I bought a Tomahawk about 3 months after getting my license and started the RV about a year later.

my free opinion

SLOW down. When i started flight training, i got all excited and looked at tons of planes. Found a great deal, to good to be true, plane was LIKE NEW. Wow, imagine my goof fortune, i seemed to know more, be smarter and just have more luck than all them experienced flyers out there. Lined it up, paid a deposit, and hired my cfi to go with me to pick it up 4 hours away. Funny, trying to buy a hanger when you dont even have a plane. Ha. Anyway, my wife and also my cfi put up with my goofiness. When we went to pick up the plane, there were some issues and it didnt work out. I forced myself to slow down. In those next few months....my DREAM plane changed, my interests changed and i found I could build the plane I wanted and learn a ton, with a lot less capital tied up.
I would finish your lic, with the crappy rentals, spend a few extra dollars renting and flying a few different rental planes....and get the vans kit started. If in 6 months, after you have your ppl, and have mucho more experience and have kicked the tires on lots of cheap used planes....buy your high time plane then and enjoy the heck out of it. If that deal of the century i had would have gone through...my rushed purchase would have cost me a fortune....,way more than my FINISHED rv9 will cost when done, and not near the plane or fun. All the best...good luck.

UnPossible,

I would agree with the other folks. I got a license eons ago, quit flying, and then started again after many years (I can finally almost afford it). I rented to get current again and then bought a 1961 172 (almost the same airplane I bought when getting my ppl but 3x the price). To make a long story short, it has been a good plane to rebuild my hours, nice because it's mine and I don't have to worry about scheduling a rental. I will end up selling it this summer to pay for the last of my 9A. However, it has been an expensive investment and if I were at your stage of decision making (don't know about your finances), I would probably go the rental route for at least several more months. I would also encourage you to 1) travel around a bit and look at options (RV, other homebuilds, used certified) and make sure you know what you (think) you want a bit better; and 2) Help someone else out building their plane (must be someone close by that could use help - advertise on this forum) to see if you really want to build, then get the emp kit, which is not very expensive (but you will also have to get some tools, unless you can borrow).

FWIW, my experience has been that the ultimate cost of an RV is significantly greater than what you get on the Van's estimator. There are a lot of little (and not so little) things that you really need even on a VFR airplane to make it useable (i.e., their estimate of avionics costs is laughable and assumes almost nothing for instrumentation, though still legal). You can, of course, save some $ by scrounging and spreading your build over a few years to take advantage of opportunities that may arise.

greg

I don't see anything wrong with the plan, as I did something similar. A couple of observations of my experience:

- there are lots of hidden costs to owning an airplane, even a simple one. One unexpected engine overhaul can really screw your financial model (ask me how I know)
- seriously pursuing a rating takes away from build time (I bought my tail kit around the time I started my IR)
- flying off on weekend trips in your plane takes away from build time (but its fun)
- I wouldn't count on selling the plane for what you paid for it, or even close to it. I think those days are gone with the aging fleet and the new stuff coming out (Cirrus, glass cockpits, etc).

Consider a partnership in a trainer to reduce your capital outlay, and get to fly the same plane all the time.

But, I really dig having my cake and eating it, too! I'll finish this plane someday.

Slow down

Owning a plane is a wonderful thing but like they say if it flys, floats or f*&!% it is cheaper to rent. If you want to have the money to buy your engine when it comes time to do it, don't put it into another plane. Like John said, consider being in a club to use their plane. Are you really wanting to have insurance on a plane, as well as your kit? Hidden costs? That is an understatement unless you are lucky. I have to admit, I have been lucky in my plane ownership but have known many that ended up with a money pit. It is all in the luck of the draw. I have owned several planes and considered purchasing something cheap to fly while I build and then turn it into an engine, but I can't afford to take the chance of needing to sink serious money into an engine on the "cheap" interim machine. If you have the disposable income to handle that, press on, but you will come out with less at risk and less total cost if you rent.

Buy the tail kit and get busy, before you know it you will need that engine.

Best of luck to you!

If you must own

Buy your second plane first! The first plane will become boring and worthless to you in no time at all. So why not just skip that step and save the money and hassle of paying taxes, brokerage fees, and your time to boot. Go right for the prize and leave the Tomahawks for somebody else. My two cents.

Best,

You are doing simular to what i did. I started flight training and bought a kitfox, nice airplane, and flew the heck out of it. I did training in both the kitfox and the cessna. I was lucky to have a CFI that would flight train in an experimental, tail wheel at that. I got my ppl, but I had to do the final in the cessna, that was ok. I been flying now with the ppl for 4 years. I have over 900 hours, it's been really fun. I'm finishing up on the RV, working on the panel and the engine gets here next month. Lots to do, but I want it done by the end of summer, hopefully. If it doesn't, than I keep flying the heck out of the fox. Oh with that many flight hours, multiply that by 120 an hour and see what you get. I saved a bunch.

I agree with not buying a plane. Get your license first (or maybe order the tail kit), rent as required, and find someone with an RV to let you fly a bit. RVs are more responsive than a 150 but I doubt that it will be an issue to fly. If you have concerns there is always the 9A.

I flew a 150 a few months ago and it was great. Nostalgia and all that. But it is a dog to fly.

If you buy a plane you will have costs that will cut into building a plane and then you have to worry about selling it.

Let's be honest. GA is not healthy. As fuel prices go up there is less flying. Less flying may mean a poor market to resale a 150/Warrior/etc.

Once you get your license...go fly and RV and start the selection process. If need be, get transition training from a real instructor.

PS, if the ADS-B Out NPRM I have been warning people about goes into effect, add in the cost of that avionics which per the FAA is around $17,000. If it is only half that amount do you think that will help the GA market or your pocketbook?

I agree, aviation is not healthy. There are some real greedy people out there and they are selling hangars at an unreasonable price right now. Seems the ones at my airport have gone up 100% in the last year. Who's hurting aviation now.

Good plan, but...

you might consider a partnership airplane. While building my RV I am a 1/5 owner of a C-172. It cost me $5,500 to purchase the share. Monthly we all pay $120 each, whether we fly or not. We charge ourselves $20 per hour dry and top off the fuel with our own money after each flight. Only one of my partners ever uses the airplane regularly so I can effectively use it any time. Never a scheduling problem (on-line with a Yahoo account). Yes, I can take it for weekends and up to two weeks at a time for trips, Osh, whatever. My partners and I value our time so we hire out everything, including, oil changes and occasional washing. This enables me to focus on my RV under construction and not worry about taking care of an airplane. I get my airplane tinkering fix on the RV project at home. We keep the airplane in 100% tip top condition so when I go to the airport my time is spent aloft.

Airplanes cost money - We just upgraded some panel components and unanimously voted for a deluxe system because the total was divided into 5ths. Our upgraded panel is way better than I would have chosen to install if I owned the airplane by myself.

This is the second airplane partnership I have been involved with. My experience with group airplane ownership has been without a single problem.

My two cents!!! Best of luck with your decision

Sincerely,

i'm in the same boat..

i'm at the same place you are (10 years younger).. almost done with my private, and really want a plane now.. i considered doin what you are thinkin about, till my flight club just took one of our planes off-line for an engine change...... $$$$ i quickly realized that i would rather rent and build, instead of spend and spend and build..


do the calculations.. i can't remember where i saw it, but someone posted the approx cost of ownership:

hanger rental:
Plane cost:
Fuel/oil cost:
insurance:
tires/minor repairs:
periodic maintenance:
scheduled overhauls:
etc:

according to the calculations i saw it was approximately $76/hour (hobbs meter) to own it

i don't know what you pay for rental but i pay $79/hour (fuel/oil included)

i chose to continue renting for now.. (i also got friends who have agreed to let me fly their planes for gas+beer)


then i'll start my -8 as soon as i got my new house and a place to work on it..

UnPossible said:

Hey – I’d love some thoughts as to the logic of my plans. From my perspective it seems like a solid plan, but I’d love to hear from those with more experience to see if there is some flaw that I’m not seeing....snip

Click to expand...

Welcome, Jason!

My advice (and feel free to chunk it) is to:

• Order your tail kit and keep taking lessons. You'll find that you have LOTS of free time away from the lessons and those are perfect 'build' times.
• I have a few friends that bought a plane to have while they built - they (almost all) regretted it. One sold his half-built RV-8 project to fund some unexpected maintenence on the Cessna he had bought to fly while he built. He has since sold the Cessna and started a new RV-8.
• Renting is cheaper than owning (in most cases). The real joy...and ultimately its real value...is having a plane in the hangar JUST like you left it - available at a moment's notice.

I was 31 and a student pilot when I began building my -6 - about in your shoes. It took a lot longer to build than I planned . And it cost more....

Of course it was worth it...

Again, feel free to toss this advice.

I considered doing exactly what you are thinking about. Since then I've gotten more involved in building and I find myself not flying very much because I'm busy building. If I owned an airplane I would either be paying fixed expenses like hanger rental and insurance to not fly it very much, or I'd be flying a lot more than I currently do and my building progress would be much slower.

How long, calendar time, have you spent accumulating your 30 hours?

Devil's advocate...

As Imac just pointed out it is the "little stuff" that will ruin your plan. The purchase cost of the airplane is not the whole picture. Your used trainer can turn into a very expensive sun-shade with one good failure or AD note. One of the joys of renting is that you are off the hook on a surprise expense. If you really get into building, you are not going to be able to fly enough to rationalize owning the airplane outright. Rent or get into a 4 or 5 person partnership.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine" Flying
200 HP 'Crocodile'
KSBA

I had almost the same plan...

Here was my original plan:

1) Buy a Grumman
2) Get my PPL.
3) Order an Quick Build kit after I retire in 15 years
4) Build Kit.
5) When ready for an engine for the RV, sell the Grumman and use the funds for a new engine.

What I did:

1) Bought a Grumman
2) Spent $ on insurance, annual, tires, new carb, new DG, new ELT, tie-down fees, etc.
3) Got my PPL using a rental because my insurance didn't cover an instructor without Grumman experience.
4) Spent more $$ on new windscreen, new AI, new alternator, new audio panel, fixed leaking tanks, etc.
5) Realized I was wasting time (why wait until I retire) so ordered the RV9A empennage.
6) Spent even more $$$ on avionics in my plane for my IFR training.
7) Worked on Empennage
8) Tried to sell the Grumman to pay for the Quick Build kit, but the market is bad for 36 year old aircraft.
7) Ordered the Slow Build wings...

Bottom Line: Although I love my Grumman, I spent a ton of money that I will never recover which I could have used for a Quick Build kit. Renting is cheaper!

I did pretty much what you're thinking of. Bought a 152 for what I thought was a steal and started building. The 152 took a lot of work at A&P prices. Still it's a lot of fun to fly when ever you want. My 152 is now up for sale and is able to be annualed at a fairly low price. I'm nearing the end of my build. If you go that route you may want to consider it.

I had similar a plan as you outlined. I purchased a Piper Cherokee to complete my flight training. I bought it for 31K and sold it for 30k 5 years later. It enabled me to build quite a bit of time at a reasonable cost.

I started building my 7A about halfway in the ownership and sold it when I ordered my engine. This was my first plane & it taught me plane ownership and feel it prepared me for building and maintaining my own airplane.

In todays world, I would probably seek out a club or fractional ownership to help with the cost of ownership.

Best of luck with your decision. Either way, if you decide to build an RV, you won't be disappointed.

Rent - Club - Own

I started when I was 10 years older than you, kids out of college, yeah. I was pretty enthused to buy a "starter" plane. I was looking at a cherokee 160 and was about to fly down and check one out when my CFI said, hold on, wait a while. You're probably going to outgrow that plane in a hurry. I fly about 100 - 150 hours per year. He was right.

I joined a club and we had an Archer, Cardinal and Mooney. I've moved and looking at another club right now. I'm half way through the wings and spending a lot more time on the plane. The same instructor told me to stay away from experimentals, but since he's not me and I did a lot of research into what model, I finally decided to build the RV. I wish I started when I first learned, you learn a great deal about aircraft and knowledge should make you a better pilot.

BTW, each of the club aircraft has maintenance costs, annuals, replacement avionics that average over 10K per year for 400 hours of use, not including engine set asides. What's right for you will depend on your flying profile, your wallet, patience and drive.

Don't wait like I did

I wanted to build a Quickie about 25 years ago. Life, family, work and many other very important thing have kept me and my wonderful family busy. I bought a RV-8 tail kit, second hand with most of the tools, about 1 1/2 years ago. I have enjoyed every minute in the garage, figuring out how to solve little problems, reading Van's Air Force daily, planning for the next project and feeling very satisfied with the results. The kit is amazing, not easy every step, but not too difficult for someone with desire. Good luck.

Call me whatever you want, but I purchased a tail kit and tools shortly after my first ride in an RV (-7A). I have about 1.5 hours in RV's and about 2 hours in a J3 and THAT'S IT for my flying experience. No takeoffs, no landings, only riding in these airplanes and a little bit of flying while I'm up in the air, mainly trying to keep heading and altitude.

I plan to get my PPL some time in the next few years before finishing the airplane. I'll probably get a good few hours in over the next few years in the J3 though, before getting my PPL.

ownership

I like your plan. Owning is not cheep but not flying is, not flying. Ownership is rewarding for me.
If you find a good cheep airplane 'read trainer' you should be able to re-coop your investment. I have a Cessna 140 that is nice. It is a good trainer and has a following. Should not be too hard to sell when the time comes. I would recommend this type to a RV builder. When you learn in a C 140 you will be a good pilot and have no problem with your transition. And they are priced right.

BUY!

I am in the process of buying my first RV (in flying condition). It took me 6 years and 200+ hours to finish my PPL because I was always waiting on scheduling, instructors, broken aircraft, weather, MONEY, etc. As an Active Duty Military officer, I seemed to be more involved with work than flying. I finally decided to buy a plane of my own, a beech musketeer and feel it was the smartest decision I ever made. Don't think you're going to save any money owning your own plane -- BUT, you will fly it more because you feel like you have to get your money's worth out of it. BTW, the Musketeer is by far one of the best "training" aircraft on the market. It's docile, predictable and unparalleled beech quality.

In Summary, I strongly support buying a trainer aircraft to finish your PPL. Building an RV at the same time would not be a bad move either and you'd want to finish the RV that much quicker! Stay away from high time aircraft as they've usually been trainers and had the snot beat out of them. If you can buy an aircraft with a mid time engine (800-1200 hours), you should be able to fly it for a couple of years and sell it for about what you paid for it (I made $5K). You'll find that you fly a lot differently in your own airplane as opposed to a rental (easier on brakes, lean the engine during taxi, advance power slowly, etc) Feel free to e-mail me with your questions directly as I've been down your road before. Mike [email protected]

Opinions re: buying a spamcan

To paraphrase Yoda: Build or fly, there is no both.

If you're flying a lot, you might find you won't have much time to build. If you're heavily into building, you'll hardly have time to fly. Of course this doesn't necessarily hold true 100% for everyone, especially those who are independently wealthy enough to not have to hold down a job or two, while spending a fair amount of time with home/family/church/social events, etc, and trying to keep aviation in the old time budget too. Don't try to spread yourself too thin across all these, since both learning to fly, and building a plane requires deep immersion of yourself into the activity.

I recommend to rent the aircraft while you're training to get your PP-ASEL, then after you've passed the checkride, weigh the decision whether to buy an interim timebuilder plane or build your own.

Now having said all that... right now the used spamcan market is down the toilet and a shrewd buyer can find some serious good deals on 30-40 year old spamcans. It's a buyers market. Don't spend over $20K on a C150 or Traumahawk unless it's got a Garmin 430 in it! Right now there are good C150's on the market for upper teens. If your budget is mid twenties, you can get a Cherokee 140 with a mid-time engine, which is a heck of a lot more airplane than a C150. Older O-300 equipped C172's are going for upper twenties. A PA28-140 or C172 is much more useful than a cramped little 2-seater spamcan.

I'm right now myself in the dilemma of keeping my Cherokee 140, or selling it to start building an RV-7. I want a -7 real bad, but the cold harsh truth is that I cannot afford to both keep my Cherokee, and build a plane at the same time. And right now, I couldn't get diddly squat on the market for my Cherokee compared to what it's really worth since it's a mid-time engine, new P&I, and I just spent a bunch of money on avionics, plus I really hate being without a plane since there are effectively zero rentals available in my area so I basically must choose either to own my own or not fly at all.


(EDIT) WRT buying a used spamcan, and high-time airframes, not all high-time airframes were used as trainers. Keep into consideration just how many years old a plane is, read thru the aircraft logbooks and make the determination how it spent its life. For instance a 40 year old plane might have over 6000 hours on it, which some people might automatically assume high-time abused trainer, but in reality it may have just been flown consistently 150+ hours a year by private owners on cross country flights, which would be a good thing.

Hey - I just wanted to thank everyone that responded to my potential purchase plans. You've given me a ton to think about. After reading and digesting all the knowledge in the posts, I think that I will continue to rent for the next couple of years, and order my tail kit later this summer.

Thanks again for all your time and thoughts,
UnPossible