Crosswinds in an RV-12

I spent 3.5 hours of transition training with John Algood in Denton, TX this past Friday and Saturday and fortunately for me, we had some stiff crosswinds to deal with. I say "fontunately" because I had a preconcieved idea that the "12", being a lightly wing loaded aircraft/ wouldn't be good in a cross wind, but it behaved quite well with close to direct crosswinds up to around 24kts. I thought my 8A was good in crosswinds, but this little puppy is equally as good.

Speaking of John, I would recommend anyone desiring transition training go to Denton and fly with him - he's very professional, experienced (27 yrs with American Airlines) and besides being a top notch CFI, he will give you lots of tips on making your first flight in the 12.

A very happy customer,
Walt Shipley

Thanks for the good report, he is my chosen transition trainer as well.

I haven't had Xwinds quite that high, but the 12 does just what you ask it to do. Real honest airplane in all situations I have seen. I would guess the highest I have handled was about 15 knots, and no problem at all.

Bob

Two years ago I gave quite a number of demo rides at the LSA Expo in Sebring with direct crosswinds 20 to 25 knots. If the pilot is up to the task, so is the airplane.

MLock said:

Two years ago I gave quite a number of demo rides at the LSA Expo in Sebring with direct crosswinds 20 to 25 knots. If the pilot is up to the task, so is the airplane.

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Now Mitch.....
Step aside your humility for a moment, and admit to all the nice people that with your amazing piloting skills you just take-off and land across the width of the runway (we all know how short an RV-12 will take-off and land)

no cross wind

I thought he just fly's it in and out of his hanger
That's one way to get rid of the cross wind component

Dang it all, Scott. You're certainly not helping me perpetuate the myth I'm desperately trying to establish here. You see, most people don't know that the runways at Sebring are 500 feet wide, so it's possible to land cross ways.

Transition Training

I give a lot of transition training. All the Vans aircraft will handle their recommended maximum crosswind with ease. Actuall, a lot more, but this is supposed to be fun, so lets stay within a comfort envelope of not exceeding recommended limits.
Good pilot technique will have those great birds touching down in strong crosswinds with great control. Go up on a very windy day with an instructor, and gain confidence in the envelope of the aircraft.

I once had to land a 727 in a crosswind exceeding the maximum demonstrated value by about 15 knots, no where else to go in the middle of the Pacific! Just landed it a bit light an Ercoupe, touched down in a bit of a crab with almost full cross control, it castered straight, and didn't leave too much rubber on the concrete!

Regards,

Gary

Be careful guys. Don't let these big numbers lull you into complacency. 15 knots should be your limit until you grow gonads like a lot of guys claiming crosswind abilities like some I've read about on here. Matter of fact, 15 knots may well be pushing your abilities.

Best,

pierre smith said:

Be careful guys. Don't let these big numbers lull you into complacency. 15 knots should be your limit until you grow gonads like a lot of guys claiming crosswind abilities like some I've read about on here. Matter of fact, 15 knots may well be pushing your abilities.

Best,

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I agree, Pierre. At about 15 kts the rudder on my RV-6 is pretty much maxed out. I've landed with crosswind gusting up to 26 kts but it was more of an "arrival" than a landing, and something I don't care to repeat. Noisy........

At our airport a 15kts+ 270 crosswind blows across the hangars and the rotors created are vicious. Makes for an exciting end to a flight.

Work up gradually to a personal crosswind limit and remember that a turbulent 15kts is far more demanding than a smooth 25kts.

On page 3-3 of the RV-12 POH the max direct crosswind limit is given as 11 knots. Nice to know that individuals have demonstrated more.

Just sayin.

-Dave

Sam Buchanan said:

I agree, Pierre. At about 15 kts the rudder on my RV-6 is pretty much maxed out. I've landed with crosswind gusting up to 26 kts but it was more of an "arrival" than a landing, and something I don't care to repeat. Noisy........

At our airport a 15kts+ 270 crosswind blows across the hangars and the rotors created are vicious. Makes for an exciting end to a flight.

Work up gradually to a personal crosswind limit and remember that a turbulent 15kts is far more demanding than a smooth 25kts.

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And since this discussion is specifically in the RV-12 forum, I will repeat what I have said before...
With an RV-12, a cross wind take off can actually be a bigger difficulty factor than a cross wind landing, if the wind is from the left. This is because the weather vaning tendency, and the engine torque left turning tendency are coupling to make an even strong turn to the left. Slightly lifting the nose wheel as soon as possible in the takeoff roll improves the rudder effectiveness by about 50%, but it takes practice ind should maybe be investigated while flying with a more experienced pilot. The reason I say that, is I have seen posts here in the forums where people implied they nearly crashed because they were attempting lifting the nose wheel early (I guess a lot of people have forgotten their soft field take-off training, or were never taught).
As already mentioned, pilots need to work up to these extremes very slowly. Particularly in gusty conditions... with the big sized vertical stab and rudder on the RV-12. it can get quite interesting.

I agree completely with Pierre and Sam. My sole assertion here is that the RV-12 is a very capable aircraft and that a properly trained (Mike Seager trained me) and experienced pilot may safely operate it to the levels at which I have personally experienced.

Also, keep in mind this discussion is in the RV-12 specific forum.
I also have done take-offs and landings in RV-12's, in cross wind conditions that I would not consider while flying one of the tail dragger RV models.

Unlike many of the RV models prior to it, where most people say that for the most part they fly the same, the RV-12 is very much a different airplane.

But I in no way intend someone to think that they should automatically asume they can handle a higher crosswind component than people do with the other RV models.... just that with the bigger differences that some models have (long wing and big slotted flaps on the RV-9 for example) it should make us think more before generalizing flight characteristics and handling qualities.

Bottom line.... learn to fly the airplane you are flying, and learn to fly it well. And the only safe way to do that, when operating at the extremes of its performance capabilities, is to move slowly and gain lots of experience.

Guys like Pierre and Sam and Mitch are speaking from the position of lots of experience when taking about what can be done in these airplanes vs whether you should be doing it.

Using my self as an example...
When I lifted off on the first test flight of my first RV in 1993, I had about 200 hrs T.T. About 20 minutes of that time was in an RV (but no landings; there was no options for transition training available back then).
By the time I had 100 hrs of RV time I felt I was starting to get the hang of flying my 6A.
At 200 hrs of RV time I realized that I probably was miss evaluating myself quite a bit at the 100 hr point.
At 500 hrs of RV time I realized how stupid I was in my evaluations at 100 and 200 hrs.
Now, with somewhere north of 1500 hrs of RV time, I am still learning.

The information provided by other RV pilots is of great value, but always bounce that against where you are skill level wise, And, always keep in mind that with the personality traits that tend to be most prevalent in us pilots, we will always tend to think more highly of our skills and ability's, than our peers probably would.

Food for thought.......

Yep

Wise words...and thanks as well.

Best,

As a low-time-in-only-the-RV-12-and-no-other-RVs pilot, (1000 hrs TT) what are some of the things you re-evaluated at the ~500 hour mark? Sounds like the making of a great magazine article!

Bill_H said:

As a low-time-in-only-the-RV-12-and-no-other-RVs pilot, (1000 hrs TT) what are some of the things you re-evaluated at the ~500 hour mark? Sounds like the making of a great magazine article!

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I too would enjoy seeing what Scott has to say. I am betting he will mention the fact that your brakes are unnecessary in almost all situations. Enough air speed across your rudder will give an amazing amount of directional control.

Peterk said:

I too would enjoy seeing what Scott has to say. I am betting he will mention the fact that your brakes are unnecessary in almost all situations. Enough air speed across your rudder will give an amazing amount of directional control.

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Bill_H said:

As a low-time-in-only-the-RV-12-and-no-other-RVs pilot, (1000 hrs TT) what are some of the things you re-evaluated at the ~500 hour mark? Sounds like the making of a great magazine article!

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First off, I wasn't meaning to imply that I felt I wasn't flying safely at 100-200 hrs, just that in the grand scheme of learning the airplane, I was still a toddler learning to walk well.

I wasn't really meaning tangible details that could be passed along to someone else (though there are many RV specific details and the one Pete mentioned is a valid one). And if I had to put one at the top of a list, it would be to learn how to be correct and accurate in airspeed control while landing (someone demonstrating a perfect squeaker landing every single time, but landing nearly 3 point in a tri gear, and requiring 2500 feet of runway to do it, should not impress any of us)

What I primarily meant was the changes in the pilot that come by experience. Such as realizing that you spend far less time focusing on instruments to determine what the airplane is doing. But instead are gaining much more of that information in other ways (visually looking outside, how the controls feel, sound, reaction rate based on amount of control input, etc.), seat of the pants type stuff.

Once you begin to intimately know an airplane in this way, you will be much more capable of flying it nearer the corners of its performance envelope. This has great value when the stakes are high (such as maneuvering at low altitude during a forced landing because of a power failure).
It also seems that once a pilot has acquired this level of experience, it takes far less time to begin to Know other airplanes in this same way.

As a low time pilot with a healthy respect (I hope) for my own limited skills and experience, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to post this.

Robert, we're all in this deal as a family.

Whatever we can pass on that will mitigate any injuries and/or bent airplanes, we feel is an obligation.

Thank you for your kind words

Down the road, you will have ample opportunity to pay it forward.

Best,

I guess I stirred up some controversy about my remarks of landing Jet
Guy's 12 in an 18-24kt crosswind.

Guys, just let me say that safety is paramount to me in the cockpit of any aircraft, and I don't think exploring the crosswind envelope is contrary to that idea, especially if you're flying with an accomplished CFI, with lots of hours in type.

I guess to be absolutely safe, one would never fly except in dead calm conditions, and then only stay near the home field in case the winds pick up.
But this is the real world, and if you're going somewhere in a plane, the winds at your destination airport may not be as advertised.

Why wouldn't it be prudent to know ahead of such a scenario how the plane, and YOU handle high wind conditions? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I've
always taken my previous aircraft out in cross wind conditions to gain experience in handling the wind.

Just sayin'.........

Walt

I was about to add a similar point. I just hate crosswinds, you can't always see them and they always see you. I think my failing is therefore to NOT practice crosswind landings enough since I don't like them, you can always land on a taxiway or someplace where it is not bad if you hate them enough. In addition to all that, my last plane was an Ercoupe with no rudder pedals and it loved crosswinds.
That said, I am hoping that there is someplace Jetguy can get me some crosswind training in the 12 so I don't have to avoid them all the time..

Don, you'll enjoy flying with John, and yeah, try to make it with some crosswind component.

By the way, I just made the first flight in my 12 this morning. Flies really nice - maybe better than the 8A I sold a few years ago. Only problem was a slightly heavy right wing. Well, there was another problem, I did two go arounds before I finally got the speed across the numbers slow enough to keep this bird from floatin' waaaaaaaay down the runway.

I'd like to post a report to the 12 group, but I haven't figured out how to post such a notice to the group - how do you do that?

Walt
Computer illerate in TN

Well congratulations on the first flight! We who are still building can only guess at that feeling we all long for.

Walt, my 12 also suffered from a heavy right wing and no amount of squeezing would fix it. I used a tab on the left wing for awhile until I was ashamed for people to see it. Then I screwed the bearings out 1 turn on the left wing. This solved the problem. The 12 is a remarkable airplane. I will admit the 8A is a fine airplane, I flew one for years, but I will take the 12.

Walt Shipley said:

Don, you'll enjoy flying with John, and yeah, try to make it with some crosswind component.

By the way, I just made the first flight in my 12 this morning. Flies really nice - maybe better than the 8A I sold a few years ago. Only problem was a slightly heavy right wing. Well, there was another problem, I did two go arounds before I finally got the speed across the numbers slow enough to keep this bird from floatin' waaaaaaaay down the runway.

I'd like to post a report to the 12 group, but I haven't figured out how to post such a notice to the group - how do you do that?

Walt
Computer illerate in TN

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Go to the top of this page and find this line........ VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-12 ....... click on the RV12....
then click on NEW THREAD.

How much wind is to much wind?

When Pilots come into town for transition training I always tell them to check back a few days before they come to review the long tern weather outlook for their training period. However some times mother nature throws us a curve ball after the customer arrives. Not much fun traveling to a location and sitting in your Hotel room all day. So I try to complete as much training as possible within the boundary of safety. 95% of the runways in my area are orientated north south. But there is one airport close by that has a northwest southeast runway. So even if we have those usual south winds we can still get some crosswind training in. However when Walt came the wind was out of the west both days. On day one they were light, out of the west at 5 to 10 knots but on day two by the time we ended the training period the winds were out of the west at 18 gusting to 25kts.

Some pilots come to training with a specific request. Walt wanted short narrow runway landings cause he lives on one. So I was happy to accommodate him. During end of training debreif I add the following advice to each customer.
1. After leaving get back in the air as quickly as you can. Your flying skills will get rusty if you don't use them. Your plane should be close to being finished before you come. Try to fly at least once a week. If you have to, add dates to your calender designated as flying days as you would for a doctor or business appointment.
2. Wind: Start out with light winds that are alined with the runway at your home field. As you fly more and more then try to fly in higher and higher winds up to a point where anything past a certain number is a no go! Use this same mythology with x-winds, start out light and work up to stronger winds to a point where anything past a certain number is a no go! This number for most pilots is the max wind designated in the POH.

Training is a great pilot equalizer because when you leave you know your own personal capabilities. Also it never hurts to find a good compatible flight instructor on your airport which you can occasionally go flying with to keep your skills razor sharp especially if you take a few months off from flying for one reason or another.

Remember that when on a x-country wind could be one of many reasons to divert to another airport with a runway that would be more aligned with it.

A man/pilot has got to know his limitations!

Walt congrads on your first flight.

pierre smith said:

Robert, we're all in this deal as a family.
Whatever we can pass on that will mitigate any injuries and/or bent airplanes, we feel is an obligation.
Thank you for your kind words
Down the road, you will have ample opportunity to pay it forward.
Best,

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Thanks Pierre,
I fly 172's and 152's and know the RV-12 will be quite different, so any tips from the experts are very welcome. Transition training is problematic in this part of the world. RV's are very popular in Australia, and there are plenty of experienced RV pilots, but there are currently no flying RV-12's in the western half of the continent. It is quite possible that mine will be the first completed RV-12 in Western Australia, and as I'm nearing completion now, the question of how to get adequate training is on my mind.

My best option is to fly with an instructor in a similar aircraft, probably a SportStar, which is available locally. Much as I would like to, I won't be making the first flight myself unless I'm very sure that I have the necessary skills, and maybe not even then. Apart from any safety considerations, there's also the problem of getting insurance cover with no in-type experience.

RV first flight- Australia

rgmwa said:

"...Much as I would like to, I won't be making the first flight myself unless I'm very sure that I have the necessary skills, and maybe not even then. Apart from any safety considerations, there's also the problem of getting insurance cover with no in-type experience.

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Robert:

BLUF: I was in your shoes until yesterday; strongly recommend you keep with your plan for an experienced and qualified pilot to to make the first flight.

My RV-9A had its first flight yesterday morning, with an experienced pilot (multi RV first flights, multi RV checkouts, several hundred RV hours, total time >4000 hours, A&P...) at the controls. As much as I wanted to make the first flight, I'm glad a very experienced and qualified pilot was at the controls.

My decision was reinforced when I learned of the (minor) issues he discovered in flight; I might have focused on troubleshooting those issues, vs. flying the airplane.

Further reinforcement of the decision came that afternoon, when my RV transition instructor happened to be at my home airport, so we completed my training there (we had started 6 days earlier, at a different airport.) I know my airspace and airport fairly well, but the combination of haze, crosswind, and a new to me airplane gave me lots of challenges. This also gave me a great appreciation for how well my "test pilot" handled the same conditions with no bobbles, and showed me how far I have to go.

BTW, my insurance broker strongly "recommended" the other pilot; saying "if everything goes perfectly, it's not an issue, but if one thing goes wrong, your lack of experience might focus on it..."

YMMV,

Esco...

Very good advice. Thanks, and congratulations!

RGMWA- Check your PMs.