Tony T (and others): West Systems order list?

I've searched the forums and looked at the builder sites of those who documented their fiberglass canopy fairings. I've decided to use the West Systems products, such as Tony T documented on his site.

Question that I can't find the answer to: can anyone who has used the West products- please provide a comprehensive list of what I'll need to order? Cloth, resins, hardeners, black dye, etc?

MANY thanks,

Here's an old article I wrote -- aggregated, actually -- which has a lot of good tips and some supply suggestions.

Gary, I think you can get what you need at West Marine if there is a store near you.

West Systems stuff

I used the Group size A system. That is a one quart can of 105 Epoxy and the smallest can (about half pint) of 206 hardener. There is also a #205 hardener but it is too fast and only gives about 12 minutes pot time. I suggest you read the West System documentations to confirm what you need. I also bought 4 oz. can of #407 filler to use on the canopy fairing to smooth it up. I also bought the #300 mini pump set. This makes measuring the quantities easy. Equal squirts from each pump gives the correct ratio. And you can leave the pumps on the cans.

The 1 quart of resin will do the whole plane if you don't mix up large quantities and have to waste part of the batch. I mixed small quantities and if you need more it only takes a minute to mix it up.

The plans specified a weight and weave of cloth and I searched on ACS for the nearest cloth that I could find. I forget now what that was. I think I bought a couple yards and had a lot left over.

If you want to use a black dye I found mine at the Ace hardware in a small tube:

It is made for coloring epoxies, seemed to work OK, I don't think West Systems had a black dye when I was building.
You will also need a lot of mixing cups and sticks, I seem to remember buying the cups from ACS and the sticks at a craft store.

Important, don't forget to buy a big box of blue rubber gloves.

Tony

Thanks!

I appreciate all the replies! There's a West Marine location about 45-minutes from my office (I had no idea there was a store semi-local to me) so I think I'll head up there tomorrow at lunch.

Thanks again for the detailed info.

Tony_T said:

You will also need a lot of mixing cups and sticks, Tony

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Hum. I have two cups and they have lasted for my entire project (7 plus years). I was going to dispose my cups and sticks and a Long EZ builder that was explaining glass stuff to me said that I was crazy. He said the cups are better after you use them (same with sticks). And it is true.

One added bonus is that you can scratch the bottom of the cup to see if the resin dried correctly. if it did, you should see a white scratch.

For mixing small batches of epoxy, its hard to beat those little plastic "Ketchup" cups that can be found at many fast-food emporiums!

I also suggest removing the canopy lift struts and use tape and scraps of foam to fill in and fair the empty areas before fiberglassing. Be careful with dripping resin oozing onto interior portions of the cockpit and canopy frame -- the solidified drips can get inthe way of removing the finished canopy.

Get the scale because most of your batches will be very small, think tenths of grams. Also, I found some food grade cups at a restaurant supply store really cheep! (Don't use these with polyester resen, it will melt right through!). Can't have enough gloves or pop sickle shocks. What everyone said!

DHeal said:

I also suggest removing the canopy lift struts and use tape and scraps of foam to fill in and fair the empty areas before fiberglassing. Be careful with dripping resin oozing onto interior portions of the cockpit and canopy frame -- the solidified drips can get inthe way of removing the finished canopy.

Click to expand...

If you follow the details of the instructions, it greatly minimizes any likelihood of this type of problem.

If the very first layer of glass is squeegeed out with a minimum amount of resin between plastic sheeting as described, applied, and then allowed to set up to the point that it gets tacky (but no longer wet) before applying any more layers, there is very little chance of having any excess resin run into areas that you do not want it.

FWIW the black dye Tony mentioned is also available at West. Peel ply is not and I had to order from Spruce.

Canopy lay-up is an immensely satisfying part of the build but you must really take your time. You are working with chemicals with a semi-specified pot life so don't try to work with too large a batch. I found out the hard way.

Nothing says more about a 12 builder's craftsmanship than the fit and finish of that canopy front.

Jim
RV-12 #264 190 hours

N223JH said:

Nothing says more about a 12 builder's craftsmanship than the fit and finish of that canopy front.

Jim
RV-12 #264 190 hours

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Jim hit the nail on the head with this comment!! Take your time and make it look good. This makes or breaks the looks of your airplane.

Tony T (and others): West Systems order list.

I too used West Systems for my resin. I got it from a local boat supply. The "one quart" size is not quite enough.

My advise, just follow the instructions in the plans and you will be surprised at how easy it is to lay up this fairing. Just like a lot of other tasks however, it takes time. DON'T HURRY.

If you can find a small metal cup to mix the resin in. The small palstic cups melt and/or deform when the resin is mixed.

AX-O said:

Hum. I have two cups and they have lasted for my entire project (7 plus years). I was going to dispose my cups and sticks and a Long EZ builder that was explaining glass stuff to me said that I was crazy. He said the cups are better after you use them (same with sticks). And it is true.

One added bonus is that you can scratch the bottom of the cup to see if the resin dried correctly. if it did, you should see a white scratch.

Click to expand...

Two cups in 7 years! Man, you got your moneys worth out of those two cups.

If you don't see a white scratch what do you??

AX-O said:

Hum. I have two cups and they have lasted for my entire project (7 plus years). I was going to dispose my cups and sticks and a Long EZ builder that was explaining glass stuff to me said that I was crazy. He said the cups are better after you use them (same with sticks). And it is true.

One added bonus is that you can scratch the bottom of the cup to see if the resin dried correctly. if it did, you should see a white scratch.

Click to expand...

Paper no-wax Dixie cups are what you want plus a bag of Popsicle sticks for mixing. No cleaning required!

Don't buy the popsicle sticks, just swing by your nearest Starbucks and swipe a few coffee stir sticks.

fwiw,
i made spacers to fit around the pump where it slides. the spacers are sized to deliver 1/2 and 1/4 amounts. very often i found on small work that a full pump is mostly wasted.
AND went to my new, full can of harderer last month and don't ask me how but it had all gone up thru the pump and out, making a mess on the shelf !
bob noffs

Ditch the pumps. Buy a small digital scale and mix by weight. Every batch, regardless of size, is accurate.

The scale doesn't cost much more than a set of West pumps, but you can use it to ratio any epoxy, structural adhesive, or polysulfide sealant, forever.

I had pretty good luck with the Harbor Freight electronic scale. I found the working time can be varied considerably with a little change in the amount of accelerator. Previously my experience was with the older resins that needed 24 hours to set up.

I also had very good success with the small (@ 4" x 3") HF electronic scale. The pumps are great for one or two strokes-worth, but for smaller quantities weighing is easier and, I suspect, more accurate.

You can also use the scales for measuring fuel tank sealant. I never needed to do this, but you can slip a thin plastic baggie over the scale to keep it clean (I couldn't convince my wife that the hard, gray stuff on the scale was old cookie dough).

I also found it easier to make a number of small batches (@ 1/3 cup?) of epoxy or sealant as I went through the process -- rather than big cups that got too hot and set-up too soon. If you pre-plan your work, you can usually do small bits of epoxy / sealant at a time -- no big rush to do it all at once.

I used West Systems epoxy when I built my -4

I recently finished building a kit kayak that came with MAS brand epoxy and find I like it much better than the West products. The West products left an amine blush that had to be removed prior to any subsequent operation - adding more resin, sanding, filling, painting, etc.

The MAS product leaves no blush and can be recoated without sanding for up to 30 hrs (according to the manufacturer) after the initial application. This is very convenient for operations that cannot be completed in one session.

Good luck,

Dean Pichon said:

The West products left an amine blush that had to be removed prior to any subsequent operation -

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Dean, as a data point, is your shop climate controlled? Or perhaps combustion heated?

Interesting question

DanH said:

Dean, as a data point, is your shop climate controlled? Or perhaps combustion heated?

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Hi Dan,

My basement shop is heated and cooled using the same HVAC system as the house. I assume you are questioning the humidity level... In the summer, I run a supplemental dehumidifier to maintain low RH as I have read higher humidity will increase blushing. When possible, I use peel ply and often vacuum bag my parts. These things do help, but I find the West epoxies still leaves significant blush.

Do you find that the West products do not blush?

Regards,

Here are a couple of other tips that found helpful:

1. Pick up a four foot long aluminum ruler and a four foot by two foot section of particle board. Along with the rotary pizza cutter thing they work great for making nice clean cuts of fiberglass.

2. As for the mixing cups, I used the disposable zip-loc containers. Once the epoxy had hardened you can flex them, pop it out, and reuse the container.

3. Next time you drive by a hobby store, stop in and pick up some very lightweight cloth. I used it on some non-structural areas where the normal BID cloth is too thick and I didn't want to use flox or micro.

4. When wetting the fiberglass cloth, put a piece of thick plastic sheet down on your work bench, lay the cloth on top, pour on some pre-mixed resin, cover the cloth and resin with a second sheet of plastic, squeegee the resin into the cloth to make sure it is saturated, and then squeegee out all the excess resin. (All the excess resin does is add weight, not strength. The strength is in the resin saturated fibers.) You are now ready to pick up the wet fabric and drape where it needs to go. This also makes cleanup much easier.

5. Next time you are in a hotel, ask the front desk if you can have a handful of used door "key cards". They work great for squeegeeing the fiberglass resin.