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Camguard - roller tappet engine, still worth the price tag?

jcarne

Well Known Member
Patron
Hello, wondering what the consensus is out there on whether this liquid gold is still worth it on an engine with roller tappets? I know there are more benefits than reduced cam wear, just wondering what the consensus is. What say you? If you have rollers do you personally use it?

Thanks!
 
There are many who swear by it, but personally, I never have - and just overhauled a 2500 hour, first-run Lycoming in Louise’s airplane where the Cam and followers were still like mirrors. Not sure how they could be better than they were, and we never did Cam Guard. I am quite sure it does no harm - but is it necessary? I am not convinced.

To directly answer - we have two roller engines, and are not using Cam Guard....

Paul
 
If you are flying on a regular basis its doubtful that any additive really does anything so change oil every 50 hours and you'll be good to go however if the engine sits for long periods of time, by engine I mean lycoming as continental doesnt have the same issues due to the location of the cam ......then I think cam guard might help some. These engines like to be run...:)
 
If you are flying on a regular basis its doubtful that any additive really does anything so change oil every 50 hours and you'll be good to go however if the engine sits for long periods of time, by engine I mean lycoming as continental doesnt have the same issues due to the location of the cam ......then I think cam guard might help some. These engines like to be run...:)

A little bit of thread drift, but....
I can attest that the Continental O-470 can have the same problem if left sitting long enough. I have one. The lower position of the cam does not result in the cam being immersed in oil. It can still get condensation on it.

If an engine is going to sit a while between runs and you don't use an engine drier, then I think the Camguard is still a good idea. The rollers probably won't rust like lifters would, but the cam lobes can.
 
An equivalent to Lycoming additive LW 16702 anti-scuff is included in Aeroshell Plus straight weight oils and the semi-synthetic 15W-50. Anti-scuff and corrosion are not the same subject.

Some years ago I made three corrosion coupons from the same strip of ordinary 1020 steel, bead blasted for identical surface prep. The lower half of each coupon was dipped in plain Aeroshell 15W-50, plain Phillips 20W-50, and Phillips with the addition of the recommended quantity of Camguard. I left them outside the shop (inland, rural Alabama, no salt) for three months.

Corrosion%20Samples%20Start.jpg


What do you see? Remember, only the bottom half was dipped. The top half of each sample was clean and bare.

Corrosion%20Samples%20End.jpg
 
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I use it on sometimes

Right now I have three lycomings under my daily watch. A custom built experimental io360 that is about 190 to 200hp with about 300hr smoh and two certified io540 each producing 290hp at 2550 rpm or 300hp at 2700 rpm. Both 540s currently have about 20,000hr total time and 3000hr SMOH. I don’t overhaul to a number, but rather to empirical data. That’s another subject. Nevertheless, They don’t get used as much as they used to so they get camguard at oil change. No metal and running great. The io360 gets run regularly and so it don’t get camguard.

I’m the type of person that tips the waitress without guilt and never drives the extra mile to save a penny in gas. So I don’t have any heartburn spending a tad extra if I think it could possibly help given the situation. These Lycomings can cost some major Ben franklins at overhaul (bitcoins for you kids that don’t know what a Ben Franklin is).

Also, I use AVBlend at every oil change for all engines.
 
How they looked each week for a month would be the sweet spot. Camguard used to show a test out to 21 or so days of benefit.
 
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I use it because I don't know much about aircraft engines, but I suspect that it's kind of the same deal as automotive fuel and oil additives....mostly hype.
 
I consider Mike Busch the engine expert on such things. He has stated he considers CamGaurd the only oil additive to offer a benefit - and he uses it.

I do as well.

Carl
 
People much smarter than me recommend it.

https://aslcamguard.com/mike-busch-q-a/

For the average 100 hour a year aircraft, it will add about $50/year to the running cost.

I consider Mike Busch the engine expert on such things. He has stated he considers CamGaurd the only oil additive to offer a benefit - and he uses it.

I do as well.

Carl

This is the number 1 reason I'm considering using it. I have great respect for Mike. Not to mention he has access to more engine data than just about anyone.

I have also read somewhere on VAF that Barrett said the engines that run Camguard seem to be the cleanest when disassembled.
 
An equivalent to Lycoming additive LW 16702 anti-scuff is included in Aeroshell Plus straight weight oils and the semi-synthetic 15W-50. Anti-scuff and corrosion are not the same subject.

Some years ago I made three corrosion coupons from the same strip of ordinary 1020 steel, bead blasted for identical surface prep. The lower half of each coupon was dipped in plain Aeroshell 15W-50, plain Phillips 20W-50, and Phillips with the addition of the recommended quantity of Camguard. I left them outside the shop (inland, rural Alabama, no salt) for three months.

Corrosion%20Samples%20Start.jpg


What do you see? Remember, only the bottom half was dipped. The top half of each sample was clean and bare.

Corrosion%20Samples%20End.jpg

Dan you didn't happen to take pictures each week by chance did you? I would think the first 3 or 4 weeks would be the range that would show a difference. Just a hunch though. Thanks for posting, I also read your other thread on this, awesome stuff.
 
I consider Mike Busch the engine expert on such things. He has stated he considers CamGaurd the only oil additive to offer a benefit - and he uses it.

In God we trust, all other bring data. Does Mike offer anything beyond opinion?

How they looked each week for a month would be the sweet spot.

Agree, but I didn't get those pictures. It's a simple test, easily duplicated. Seems like we could get a half dozen sample sets done and posted PDQ.
 
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These 540's have a TT of 20000 hours? ...wow! Or was that a Typo?

Right now I have three lycomings under my daily watch. A custom built experimental io360 that is about 190 to 200hp with about 300hr smoh and two certified io540 each producing 290hp at 2550 rpm or 300hp at 2700 rpm. Both 540s currently have about 20,000hr total time and 3000hr SMOH. I don’t overhaul to a number, but rather to empirical data. That’s another subject. Nevertheless, They don’t get used as much as they used to so they get camguard at oil change. No metal and running great. The io360 gets run regularly and so it don’t get camguard.

I’m the type of person that tips the waitress without guilt and never drives the extra mile to save a penny in gas. So I don’t have any heartburn spending a tad extra if I think it could possibly help given the situation. These Lycomings can cost some major Ben franklins at overhaul (bitcoins for you kids that don’t know what a Ben Franklin is).

Also, I use AVBlend at every oil change for all engines.
 
I consider Mike Busch the engine expert on such things. He has stated he considers CamGaurd the only oil additive to offer a benefit - and he uses it.l

This isn’t quite true. Check out Mikes “All About Oil” webinar. He likes the Lycoming anti-scuff additive as well, although he still prefers Camguard.

Erich
 
We had many discussions with an engineer at Phillips (now retired) when a good friend of mine was testing oil for them. When we spoke about oil additives and their ingredients he pretty quickly dismissed them and told us that if they were worth using Phillips would be including them in their formulation. Everyone wants to feel good about their choices and who you listen to on the internet, and that's fine. But for some of us that want to see proof that products like AvBlend and Camguard actually work, I have yet to see it and I've seen the insides of engines on a steady diet of these additives that had rust in them.
 
No typo

No typo. My star used to make nightly check runs so flying all day for 5 days a week can get you to 2000hr pretty quickly. With the internet, those flying jobs went by way of the dodo bird.


These 540's have a TT of 20000 hours? ...wow! Or was that a Typo?
 
In God we trust, all other bring data. Does Mike offer anything beyond opinion?

Agree, but I didn't get those pictures. It's a simple test, easily duplicated. Seems like we could get a half dozen sample sets done and posted PDQ.

Mattituck ran a similar test, but instead of coupons used a bunch of old Lycoming cams leaned up against the exterior wall, but under the eaves. Many different oils were tested, and the only conclusion Jay would offer after several rounds of testing was don't use AeroShell 15W-50.
 
I think that believing in the benefits of Camguard is a bit like believing in God....there’s absolutely no scientifically empirical evidence whatsoever to support the belief...it’s just whatever makes you feel good.
 
I think that believing in the benefits of Camguard is a bit like believing in God....there’s absolutely no scientifically empirical evidence whatsoever to support the belief...it’s just whatever makes you feel good.

Well, using Camguard makes me feel good.............. so, using your criteria, I will keep using it! :)
 
DanH
What do you see? Remember, only the bottom half was dipped. The top half of each sample was clean and bare.

What do I see? Little difference in an inconclusive test... dipping those sample in oil and hangin'em loose in the breeze, and probably rain and flying dirt, for such a long period, the surface got cleaned up real quick.
This test doesn't replicate the working conditions of engine oil regarding T, T variations, P, degradation, and latent humidity.

A better test you will ask? The best one would be to have two engine siblings at the same location running for the same periods of work/rest at the same time under the same loads, over an extended time, one with, and one without the "feel better" product.
I don't thrust anything, but hope the stuff is doing its work when I don't fly... maybe :eek:
 
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Well, using Camguard makes me feel good.............. so, using your criteria, I will keep using it! :)

That’s the bottom line. It’s likely that its the same voodoo as automotive additives, but it is very unlikely that it does any harm. At such a low percentage of the cost of aircraft maintenance, if it makes you feel better, why not?
 
...
This test doesn't replicate the working conditions of engine oil regarding T, T variations, P, degradation, and latent humidity.

A better test you will ask? The best one would be to have two engine siblings at the same location running for the same periods of work/rest at the same time under the same loads, over an extended time, one with, and one without the "feel better" product.
...
Or use a twin like the guy with the engine dryer did - one with the product, one without.

Unfortunately Van's has not yet released his twin kit. :D

Perhaps another test that might be closer to what we see in our engines is to do the same test that Dan did, but leave the metal in the hangar, not in the wind/rain.
 
Camguard testing in a humidity chamber showed 19 days and it was better than straight oil., see attachment. Lycoming additive not included. I am not sure if the Lyc additive is an EP lubricant or for corrosion. I use a dryer.


The OP asked about slipper vs roller follower. I was happy to get rollers in my M1B. Why? In my professional life, a test was run with slipper vs rollers including analysis. Not a corrosion test. It showed this roller design was better than our best slipper by 3x. The slippers were running fine in production but this was a limit test to determine how far slippers could be pushed. For many reasons the rollers were selected, all durability and cost related, none were corrosion. Rolling parts are much lower contact stresses and sensitive to EP additives in the oil (or lack thereof).

No, Dan, sorry, but I have been able to retrieve the reports, the tech library people looked at me like a spy when I went and asked.

Data - FWIW - The lifter test is near the end. Too bad cam material was not tested too.

View attachment Engine Dryer Data.pdf
 
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Perhaps another test that might be closer to what we see in our engines is to do the same test that Dan did, but leave the metal in the hangar, not in the wind/rain.

Camguard publishes two cabinet tests:

https://aslcamguard.com/humidity-cabinet/

https://aslcamguard.com/api-derived-humidity-cabinet-testing/

The first simply cycles temperature, apparently to promote condensation.

The second adds acid to the water, and a 220F conditioning period, presumably to simulate the way Camguard is deposited on metal surfaces at shutdown. The rest of the test is like the first, to promote condensation.

The dipped strip samples are a "Let's see what happens" cousin to the basic humidity cabinet test. No controls, but it took about half a beer to set up while loafing in the shop one evening. It's not data in any serious sense, but it is an indicator. I did look at the samples every few days, just didn't take pictures. Want more precision? Go for it. In the meantime, does anyone have a link to real data from an independent source?

Ed Kollin spells out his position pretty well here:

https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?31190-ASL-Camguard

Kollin clearly has the chops.

I admit to being a bit amused at his discussion of MMO.

In the same thread you'll find a fella who tracks oil analysis long term. He reports no big change, before and after.

Anyone have a link to detailed discussion from Busch? A Bertorelli piece in Aviation Consumer seems to suggest Busch's primary evidence was no spike in iron following a period of inactivity. Apparently Busch wrote about it for the Cessna owners group, but I'm not a member.

EDIT: Thanks Bill, good read. Lot of merit to a dryer!

Interesting difference in reported results, Exxon Elite (which includes an additive package) vs Phillips w/ Camguard. Camguard's humidity chamber test on left, vs Sutton's results on right.
 

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Let’s accurately quote Mike:

“I decided to run a test of CamGuard in my own airplane. I used it quietly for 18 months. My oil analysis results showed that the big spikes in iron (caused by rust) that I had always seen when the aircraft was idle for a month or more were eliminated. That got my attention. I also found a modest across-the-board reduction in other wear metals (about 10 to 20 percent). I examined the oil analysis history of several other air- planes using CamGuard and saw much the same thing. I’ve been using CamGuard in my engines for more than three years now, and I’m convinced the stuff works.”
 
If you listen to Mike Busch's webinars you will eventually pick up on the fact that he doesn't really ever speak/claim something without having a scientific reason or data to back up his claims. He will speculate to some degree when questions are asked but not during his presentations. If he says running Camguard has advantages I'm sure he has something to back up this claim. HOWEVER, I will admit he hasn't done that great of a job describing why he came to his conclusion.
 
Let’s accurately quote Mike:

Yes, that one is from an old Sport Aviation column. More anecdote than data, but hey, it's a column. The rest of the quote:

For most of the airplanes we manage, we
recommend AeroShell W100 with a pint of
CamGuard added at each oil change. That’s
what I use in my airplane, and my two
engines are at nearly 200 percent of time
between overhauls (TBO) and still going
strong. For wintertime operations in cold
climates, I recommend Phillips X/C 20W-50
multigrade with a pint of CamGuard.


Best I can tell, W100 and X/C don't contain the corrosion additive(s) found in Exxon Elite, Aeroshell 15W-50 semi-synthetic, or the Aeroshell Plus oils. It's unclear if the more recent Phillips Victory oil contains a corrosion additive, or just the LW-16702.

Point is, Mike saw an improvement when he added a scuff and corrosion package to an oil which did not already have it.

As for oils that do, Kollin wrote that the quantity of anti-corrosion additive in Aeroshell and Exxon was too low by a factor of 20. However, the independent test Bill posted suggests well, maybe not.

Keep the info coming.
 
The best protection against engine corrosion is to fly frequently- double the fun, or even triple the fun if you enjoy aviation maintenance. My goal is to wear the airplane out. :)
 
As far as flying frequently, no problem there. I'm currently on track to do 300-400 hours this year at the rate I'm going. I think I go into withdrawals after about 2 days of not flying. haha Main symptom is a sore neck from always looking up at the sky. :p

If anyone knows my wife you better keep your mouth shut after hearing those numbers! :D
 
If you listen to Mike Busch's webinars you will eventually pick up on the fact that he doesn't really ever speak/claim something without having a scientific reason or data to back up his claims. He will speculate to some degree when questions are asked but not during his presentations. If he says running Camguard has advantages I'm sure he has something to back up this claim. HOWEVER, I will admit he hasn't done that great of a job describing why he came to his conclusion.

Mike covers Camguard in his book "Engines" in chapter 28 and has his before/after data that convinced him the "snake oil" actually had merit. The entire chapter is committed to additives. His conclusion was CamGuard helps, and especially with engines that have intermittent or prolong periods of downtime. I don't think his testing would pass the standard of a double-blind placebo-controlled study, but he did a reasonable review of the data from his before/after experience with results from his oil analysis.

The best medicine for these engines seem to be regular use and frequent oil changes. I also enjoy woodworking, and I find the best thing to keep my table saw top from rusting is to use it!
 
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