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High CHT with P-Mag

GalinHdz

Well Known Member
I just installed dual P-Mags on my Lycoming O-360 A4M and my #3 CHT is running hot. With the older Slick mags I never had a problem. I checked the baffles, they are in good shape and have not changed since the new instal.

CHT 1, 2, and 4 stay just below 400f under my normal cruise but #3 runs around 425f. If I reduce power below 65% then everything drops below 400f but anything above 65% brings the temp on #3 right back up unless I run it very rich, about 12gal/hr.

I am using the "A" curve on the mags and they both are hooked to the same MP point with a "T" connector. I have about 30hrs on the ignition.

Any ideas?

:cool:
 
Have you checked the ACTUAL timing with a timing light of each ignition?
Is the use of timing light in aircrafts, the same as in cars?

If so, I would imagine you will need a long cords to attach to the spark plug wires due to the prop.
 
I have dual P-Mags (jumper wire installed) with an O-360-A4K converted to an -A4M (updraft carb) on my -9A. I also have higher CHTs with the P-Mags vs Slick Mags, especially #3 cylinder. I can keep them all below 400F up to 2500 RPM at altitude burning 8-8.5 gal/hr with 155 KTAS. Baffling is good and oil temps hardly ever see 200F in summer. Dan
 
Much has been written here regarding timing and CHT's. Sounds like your timing is advanced from what it was. Search the forums.

Yes you can use an inductive timing light as used on a car engine. Not a big deal, be very careful.

Make sure you are familiar with the timing marks on the flywheel ring and that you have rigged a good timing pointer aligned with engine case split. Know what timing you will be expecting to see. Standard Bendix mags will give a constant advance (20 or 25 degrees) but the electronic ignitions will give a variety of advances dependent on conditions (RPM and MAP). Check with the P-mag people.
 
Higher CHTs is very common when swithching from standard mags.

What numbers are you seeing?

Pull your plane in the hangar, turn off all the lights, put a trouble light under the cylinders and look for air leaks. I was able to drop my CHTs by 15 to 20 degrees by simply sealing all my LITTLE air leaks.
 
We know all about this........;)

Fitted dual P Mags with NGK plugs on top and Unison on the bottom.

Had CHT issues from the get go.

Using a US made plenum on standard cowling, ECI IO-360 motor with an MT 3 blade prop.

Always hovering around 400, 430 when stunting.

Anyhow, we swapped the lowers for NGK's this annual and re timed, paying attention to how and where it was timed.

We had damaged a starter casing with kickbacks so suspected an advanced timing.

Spoke with Brad and he suggested re timing on the A curve but set the timing a couple degrees after TDC on #1.

Set it all up at TDC - moved it a puffteenth retarded and set the timing using the blow method on both mags at the same time.

I know - we changed a bunch of stuff at the same time, so we cannot be for sure what cured the issue, but........

We now run at 320, maybe 350 when stunting.

I couldn't believe what a difference it made.

V happy bunnies :D
 
I have dual P-Mags (jumper wire installed) with an O-360-A4K converted to an -A4M (updraft carb) on my -9A. I also have higher CHTs with the P-Mags vs Slick Mags, especially #3 cylinder. I can keep them all below 400F up to 2500 RPM at altitude burning 8-8.5 gal/hr with 155 KTAS. Baffling is good and oil temps hardly ever see 200F in summer. Dan

What numbers do you typically see above 2500 RPM's at altitude?

Pull your plane in the hangar, turn off all the lights, put a trouble light under the cylinders and look for air leaks. I was able to drop my CHTs by 15 to 20 degrees by simply sealing all my LITTLE air leaks.

I already did this and sealed all the tiny little leaks. There were not many I could find. It help a little, but not much.

Spoke with Brad and he suggested re timing on the A curve but set the timing a couple degrees after TDC on #1.

Set it all up at TDC - moved it a puffteenth retarded and set the timing using the blow method on both mags at the same time.

I know - we changed a bunch of stuff at the same time, so we cannot be for sure what cured the issue, but........

We now run at 320, maybe 350 when stunting.

I couldn't believe what a difference it made.

V happy bunnies :D

Hmmmm, did you do the "puffing" a few degrees before or after TDC on #1? This sounds logical to me. I will try it, see if it helps and report my results.

:cool:
 
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Could the more efficient ignition/combustion gained from the EI result in the higher CHTs?

I will be running one PMAG and Slick on my -7.

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Could the more efficient ignition/combustion gained from the EI result in the higher CHTs?

I will be running one PMAG and Slick on my -7.

Glenn Wilkinson

We have a winner. Assuming everything else is OK.

The other day I had one of our EICommander customers call and ask about timing, CHT's, etc. He was concerned about his "high" CHTs. When I asked him what "high" was, he replied, "360 degrees". I about fell over, 360 would be great but he wanted 330 or so, which is what he had prior to going to P-mags. I guess it is all relative.

This conversation prompted me to pull out my Lycoming Operator's Manual for O-360's. While we all seem to agree that sub 400 CHTs are ideal, here is what Lycoming states in their manual:

Lycoming O-360 Operator's Manual said:
GENERAL RULES
Never exceed the maximum ride line cylinder head temperature limit.

For maximum service life, cylinder head temperatures should be maintained below 435*F (224*C) during high performance cruise operation and below 400*F (205*C) for economy cruise powers.

...

Those temps are a lot higher than any of the conventional wisdom I had heard and my preference is to see CHT's in the 360 to 380*F range.

Your mileage may vary.

PS. I have both of my P-mags set to TDC and am running the A curve. My CHT's run in the range I mentioned above while operating ROP. When LOP, my CHT's will drop into the high 200's.
 
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This conversation prompted me to pull out my Lycoming Operator's Manual for O-360's. While we all seem to agree that sub 400 CHTs are ideal, here is what Lycoming states in their manual:

For maximum service life, cylinder head temperatures should be maintained below 435*F (224*C) during high performance cruise operation and below 400*F (205*C) for economy cruise powers.

Those temps are a lot higher than any of the conventional wisdom I had heard and my preference is to see CHT's in the 360 to 380*F range.

Your mileage may vary.

PS. I have both of my P-mags set to TDC and am running the A curve. My CHT's run in the range I mentioned above while operating ROP. When LOP, my CHT's will drop into the high 200's.

If I could get all 4 of my CHT's in the 360 - 380 range I would be ecstatic. But I have one CHT running around 425F with the other 3 between 380-410F and this is while using almost 12Gallons/Hr. If I try to go any leaner, <11 Gallons/Hr, then the CHT climbs to 430F and I go back to the richer mixture.

:cool:
 
Could the more efficient ignition/combustion gained from the EI result in the higher CHTs?

I will be running one PMAG and Slick on my -7.

Glenn Wilkinson

Glenn,

That is a wrong assumption.

The reason you get higher CHT's is that the spark timing is several degrees earlier, this then gets the combustion event going earlier than the OEM intended and the peak pressure occurs closer to TDC, which we call THETA PP. That is the degrees after top dead centre.

When the Theta PP is less but there is a lesser volume (piston closer to TDC) the expansion of the gas is going to result in higher ICP (Internal Cylinder Pressure). This results in a smaller boundary layer in the head and piston crown and thus more thermal transfer to them both.

Advancing the ignition does not gain you HP, unless it was not timed right to begin with and it can be demonstrated on a aircraft engine dyno that HP actually drops if you advance too far. We show this at the Carl Goulet Memorial Test Cell before each APS class. It is interesting to see peoples eyes open up at that point.

Advancing the spark timing helps with LOP operations however too much is counter productive. Some people find they can achieve further LOP than is optimal and while this might get bragging points it is inefficient in terms of BSFC.

When one considers that the nominal static timing of 25 as is typically used in an IO/O360/540 results in an actual spark timing of say 21 degrees due to lag in the magneto and this was the design parameter for the engine, what does one think when we change the mag to something else.

The EI is still using a form of gear drive in many of the EI's but some are inductive prix sensors with no mechanical lag. In a magneto beyond the gear is a bunch more mechanical things that have lag, but even a gear drive PMAG does not. The EI's fire earlier even if statically timed as such for 25 a spark at 25DBTDC.

This is why those who have set TDC and then moved past by a couple of degrees have yielded better CHT results.

My suggestion is run the least advance curve, induce 2-3 degrees ATDC before doing the blow in the tube or whatever other timing method to achieve a couple of degrees less advance. At lower MP and cruise settings when LOP you will have plenty of advance to achieve better LOP ops. Run AVGAS ONLY.

If you want to do all the wrong things, run the most advance, have the timing set with no retard, use an inductive prox EI, and use mogas.

I should take a moment to harp on about using mogas. The latency is less which effectively advances the timing more than all the above. If you think that the OEM's designed the engine around a peak cylinder pressure with magneto's (retarded from 25DBTDC) and using avgas (more latency) the effective timing and the resulting ThetaPP is nothing like that of an EI aggressively timed on mogas.

As I can make an assumption very few people on VAF have seen this live before their own eyes on the best aircraft piston engine dyno in the world, I can understand many will struggle to grasp this concept. However believe me, I have more than an hour or two watching this stuff.

Its your engine, do what you like! :cool:
 
If I could get all 4 of my CHT's in the 360 - 380 range I would be ecstatic. But I have one CHT running around 425F with the other 3 between 380-410F and this is while using almost 12Gallons/Hr. If I try to go any leaner, <11 Gallons/Hr, then the CHT climbs to 430F and I go back to the richer mixture.

:cool:

And you should. A properly cooled Lycoming in an RV should see CHT's in the 350-370 range when ROP, and 300-340 when LOP at altitude (less at low level due denser cooling air).

There is a No.3 cooling mod which I believe Dan Horton ( DanH) has details of on a VAF thread. Send him a PM for details or do a search for it.

You need to fix several things, here is a list which need checking/fixing and is not necessarily everything but is a good start.

1. DanH's C3 mod. - DO IT.
2. Get the spark timing sorted, refer above post - DO IT.
3. Check for air leaks, amazingly only a third the cooling air that comes in the front goes out the bottom, sealing up all the gaps does not always achieve massive gains but if it means you have less DELTA Pressure from upper to lower deck, then you get less cooling. Again refer DanH's posts. Lots of good info. This is a - CHECK IT
4. Run Avgas not mogas - DO IT.
5. Induction leaks, when running ROP induction leaks mean less rich operation and higher CHT. When Running LOP the leak means lower CHT however a leak will mean less HP produced in that cylinder when LOP and it will run rough.
6. Learn to love this graph and if you are like most people you really could do with investing in education, either the live course or online course or both! http://www.advancedpilot.com
Landmarksgraph_zpsbfb07cbb.gif

7. Study the John Deakin Articles on AVWEB #63-66 and for that matter read all of them, but these 4 are best printed off and read over and over until you can recite them. Yes that is correct, one every night before bed for about 28 days (7 times each).

Out of interest what prop are you using?
 
Just as a point of reference, I have an IO-360 (180hp), dual Lightspeeds timed at 25 deg, 100LL. CHT's rarely exceed 350, they generally run 310-330 with normal OAT's of 70-80F.
 
Advancing the ignition does not gain you HP, unless it was not timed right to begin with and it can be demonstrated on a aircraft engine dyno that HP actually drops if you advance too far. We show this at the Carl Goulet Memorial Test Cell before each APS class. It is interesting to see peoples eyes open up at that point.
cool:

I might be interesting to see a video or series of videos featuring your test cell outcomes.

thx,
Don
 
Just as a point of reference, I have an IO-360 (180hp), dual Lightspeeds timed at 25 deg, 100LL. CHT's rarely exceed 350, they generally run 310-330 with normal OAT's of 70-80F.

Thats a sign of good cooling Walt, and I would not expect any less from you in particular. ;)

Is that running ROP or LOP? I would guess the latter.

The point to remember is this, while CHT tracks ICP across the mixture spectrum, you can't use the measure of CHT as a measure of ICP. It is possible to have high ICP and acceptable CHT or for the same ICP a high CHT just because of ambient conditions or cooling system differences.

I wonder what you would get if your dropped in a set of slicks and did a back to back test on the same day? Just a mind tease, I do not expect you to do it.
 
If my PMAG is timed 2-3 degrees ATDC, will that control or eliminate the problems of setting the mixture at Peak EGT?

Glenn Wilkinson
 
GalinHDZ

I had a similar issue after my first annual and it was due to the fact I used the centre of the starter as my TC1 ref instead of the dot on starter (see my log photos). Retimed to the correct ref and my numbers all came back to normal - see below.

One you have sorted the issue out I would definitely lean out as the benefits are win-win on the graph shown above by RV10inOz - less fuel $, less CHT and less stress on the engine.

My annual average numbers for ASP IO-360, Catto 3 blade, Dual P-Mags with auto plugs at 2000ft AMSL are 2200 RPM, 138 kts(IAS), 6.3 US Gal/Hr (24 litres/hr) and CHTs sub 300 in winter around 315 in summer all at about 30 deg LOP. I could cruise faster but I have to watch the $$ :)
 
Higher CHTs is very common when swithching from standard mags.

What numbers are you seeing?

Pull your plane in the hangar, turn off all the lights, put a trouble light under the cylinders and look for air leaks. I was able to drop my CHTs by 15 to 20 degrees by simply sealing all my LITTLE air leaks.

Bill; After talking on the phone with you I changed the alternator blast tube from 1-1/2" to 3/4" (I didn't have the heart to close it completely off), changed the carb heat scat tube from 2-1/2" to 1-1/2" and the temperature problem is gone. I left the mag timing at TDC. Now all 4 cylinders run within 5F of each other with the hottest one (#4) running at 401F. You can call me a happy camper!

THANKS for pointing me in the right direction.

:cool:
 
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Yesterday I had my first flight since I installed my PMAG (one PMAG, one slick) and here are my numbers;
Slick on the left is timed right at 25 degree BTDC
PMAG on the right side is timed 2 degree ATDC
On the ground mag check I drop about 90 RPM on the left (slick) and 100 to 110 with the PMAG (I was hoping a better result with the PMAG. The MAG check in the air seems to be only 30 RPM drops on the PMAG and 40 RPM drop with the slick. I ran LOP and it was very smooth (50 LOP on the hottest cylinder) and I am within .2g between all cylinders. The CHT seem to be a tad higher compared to before but still very good, ROP is about 360-370 and LOP is 320-330. My CHTs have always been very close to one another.

The start from cold is within the first blade or so, very happy with that.
 
Bill; After talking on the phone with you I changed the alternator blast tube from 1-1/2" to 3/4" (I didn't have the heart to close it completely off), changed the carb heat scat tube from 2-1/2" to 1-1/2" and the temperature problem is gone. I left the mag timing at TDC. Now all 4 cylinders run within 5F of each other with the hottest one (#4) running at 401F. You can call me a happy camper!

THANKS for pointing me in the right direction.

:cool:
It was good talking to you and I hope your trip was enjoyable!

Is there anyway you can switch to an RV style carb heat on your KIS TR-4 Cruiser and completely eliminate the carb heat scat tube? That might help lower your CHT's even more.

Here is a picture of the carb heat on my O-360. There is no ram air with the RV carb heat and the air is drawn in along the back of this cuff.
carb%2520heat%25202.JPG

The heat muff can be found here.
 
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It was good talking to you and I hope your trip was enjoyable!

Is there anyway you can switch to an RV style carb heat on your KIS TR-4 Cruiser and completely eliminate the carb heat scat tube? That might help lower your CHT's even more.

Here is a picture of the carb heat on my O-360. There is no ram air with the RV carb heat and the air is drawn in along the back of this cuff.
carb%2520heat%25202.JPG

The heat muff can be found here.

I had not seen this before. But if it doesn't need ram air, then why can't I just eliminate the scat tubing to the heat muff and let the heat muff draw air from inside the engine compartment instead of pulling it from the outside?

:cool:
 
I had not seen this before. But if it doesn't need ram air, then why can't I just eliminate the scat tubing to the heat muff and let the heat muff draw air from inside the engine compartment instead of pulling it from the outside?

:cool:

You can. The question is whether the temperature rise without the shroud is sufficient to prevent and/or melt carb ice.
 
You can. The question is whether the temperature rise without the shroud is sufficient to prevent and/or melt carb ice.

No, not removing the shroud just removing the scat tube that connects the shroud to the plenum. Air will flow from inside the hot engine compartment, get heated even more through the shroud before going on to the carb.

I then cover the hole in the plenum, where the scat tube used to connect, increasing the amount of cooling air directed at the cylinders.

:cool:
 
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If you have a carb temp probe, document your carb and CHT temps in various flight configurations. Then change your carb heat setup and see what the difference is. I would expect you MAP to go down due to your loss of ram air but not significantly enough to keep you from flying.

Let us know what you do and how it works out.
 
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If you a carb temp probe, document your carb and CHT temps in various flight configurations. Then change your carb heat setup and see what the difference is. I would expect you MAP to go down due to your loss of ram air but not significantly enough to keep you from flying.

Let us know what you do and how it works out.

I have a carb temp probe so this is something I will do when I get back from my trip. THANKS for the idea and I will let you know what numbers I get.

:cool:
 
Since so much of this thread involves ignition time about which we generally aren't aware, throw into the mix what Brantel has unearthed about P-mag's "B" advance map. He's going to test the "A" map. Should be interesting.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=108079

John Siebold

Oh I agree. Could this be why so many people seem to have better results setting the timing 2-3 degrees after TDC instead of at TDC?

:cool:
 
Since so much of this thread involves ignition time about which we generally aren't aware, throw into the mix what Brantel has unearthed about P-mag's "B" advance map. He's going to test the "A" map. Should be interesting.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=108079

John Siebold

Oh I agree. Could this be why so many people seem to have better results setting the timing 2-3 degrees after TDC instead of at TDC?

:cool:

No, the reason for the 2-3 degrees after TDC is to prevent kickback when using a light prop. Those few degrees won't really do much with regard to CHT's.

Since you are already running the A curve, you are fine. Most of your issues seem to be with your baffles as your CHT were higher than desirable before you made the switch to the P-mags. The changes you have made have already indicated that you are on the right path. Keep going.

Remember, the RV's do not take the intake air for the carb heat from the pressure side of the cooling plenum like you do with your KIS. That changes the pressure differential between the top and bottom sides and reduces how much cooling air will move through your cylinders. I'll bet once you completely plug up the carb heat hole in your intake ramp, your CHT's will drop significantly.
 
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