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PBR8ES Plug Fouling Issue

N184DA

N184DA

Well Known Member
Sponsor
Typo in the header, should be: BR8ES

So, I have a grand total of 2+ hours on my dual P-Mag install on my O320-D1A RV4.
Which, as a separate issue,, install went very well as did my initial testing. I love the things, especially the crazy-low idle speeds!

Now here comes one of my first trips away from home base, and what happens.
Run-up on the left mag is a no-go. Misfiring, rough, and truth be told, had this been a slick, I would have "assumed" a lead-fouling issue and would have taken aggressive measures to clear it. But thinking this "must" be an issue with the new P-Mags, and as I have yet to read any posts on VAF the cites lead-fouling as an issue with the auto plugs, I taxied back and performed some additional ground runs.

After a few minutes, I had it running well enough (not sure what I did), so I elected to fly the 30 minute flight back to home base, solo, and dig deeper.

During the flight home, rough running mag was intermittent, and only when I isolated the left mag. Ran fine, albeit a tad lower RPM on both.

Back in the hangar, I removed the cowl, checked for any obvious issues with plugs wires, and P-Mag wiring. Checked for the dreaded "yellow LED of death", sand verified that both mags were still timed. Everything looked good, so I removed the plugs.

I am running entirely on auto-plugs: NGK BR8ES.

Top plugs were fine,
Bottom plugs,, every one had a small amount of lead build-up (remember, this is only hour three). One plug in particular, had a nifty little lead bridge from the edge, just about to the center electrode, which I am convinced was the issue. Under a magnifying glass, I could see that it had been arcing.

I apologize for the long post, but here is the question:
Has anyone else experienced similar issues with the NGKs? As I mentioned, all I have heard to date, has been just the opposite.

And just for the record, I am a very aggressive leaner on the ground, not so much in-flight. I tend to lean only above 5,000' density altitude (as per Lycoming's recommendations). But on the ground, mixture comes back to just about idle-cutoff for all taxiing.

However good or bad my leaning technique is, it hasn't changed from all of my Slick-Years, and I have never seen a lead-bridge like this before, especially so soon.

Anyone have any ideas?
I plan on calling Brad, but realized he is probably tied up with OSH.
 
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NGK Plugs

N184DA said:
Typo in the header, should be: BR8ES

So, I have a grand total of 2+ hours on my dual P-Mag install on my O320-D1A RV4.
Which, as a separate issue,, install went very well as did my initial testing. I love the things, especially the crazy-low idle speeds!

Now here comes one of my first trips away from home base, and what happens.
Run-up on the left mag is a no-go. Misfiring, rough, and truth be told, had this been a slick, I would have "assumed" a lead-fouling issue and would have taken aggressive measures to clear it. But thinking this "must" be an issue with the new P-Mags, and as I have yet to read any posts on VAF the cites lead-fouling as an issue with the auto plugs, I taxied back and performed some additional ground runs.

After a few minutes, I had it running well enough (not sure what I did), so I elected to fly the 30 minute flight back to home base, solo, and dig deeper.

During the flight home, rough running mag was intermittent, and only when I isolated the left mag. Ran fine, albeit a tad lower RPM on both.

Back in the hangar, I removed the cowl, checked for any obvious issues with plugs wires, and P-Mag wiring. Checked for the dreaded "yellow LED of death", sand verified that both mags were still timed. Everything looked good, so I removed the plugs.

I am running entirely on auto-plugs: NGK BR8ES.

Top plugs were fine,
Bottom plugs,, every one had a small amount of lead build-up (remember, this is only hour three). One plug in particular, had a nifty little lead bridge from the edge, just about to the center electrode, which I am convinced was the issue. Under a magnifying glass, I could see that it had been arcing.

I apologize for the long post, but here is the question:
Has anyone else experienced similar issues with the NGKs? As I mentioned, all I have heard to date, has been just the opposite.

And just for the record, I am a very aggressive leaner on the ground, not so much in-flight. I tend to lean only above 5,000' density altitude (as per Lycoming's recommendations). But on the ground, mixture comes back to just about idle-cutoff for all taxiing.

However good or bad my leaning technique is, it hasn't changed from all of my Slick-Years, and I have never seen a lead-bridge like this before, especially so soon.

Anyone have any ideas?
I plan on calling Brad, but realized he is probably tied up with OSH.
Click to expand...




Try the wider gap option, is it .37? I have been running your plugs with Pmags, O-360 carb, and 100LL for over 100 hours, no lead fouling whatsoever. I do change them often, maybe 25 hours at oil change.
 
MontanaMike said:
Try the wider gap option, is it .37? I have been running your plugs with Pmags, O-360 carb, and 100LL for over 100 hours, no lead fouling whatsoever. I do change them often, maybe 25 hours at oil change.
Click to expand...

.032 - .035,,
As per the manual
 
Switching to PMags

I'm assuming this is not a new engine and you upgraded to PMags from a standard magneto. If so, then:

The same thing happened to me when I removed the Slick mags and installed Pmags. I was getting a lot of lead deposits and fouled plugs with the Slick mags. So rather than rebuilding the Slicks and purchasing another set of $30 spark plugs, I installed 2 PMags with auto plugs. After a couple hours of flight the engine started running a little rough. I removed the plugs and found many large chunky lead deposits in each bottom plug. The PMags produce a hotter spark which permitted the engine to run much leaner. This resulted in all of the accumulated lead deposits getting blasted off the the cylinder walls and funneling into the bottom plugs. I blew out each cylinder with compressed air to remove more lead chunks, and after a couple more hours of flight this problem went away. I have tried BR8ES plug gaps of 0.032", 0.035", and 0.040" and have not noticed any significant differences in performance or fuel flow at any of these settings. I now check for a gap of 0.032" and install a new set every 100 hours. The used bottom plugs usually exhibit a few small lead deposits and the top plugs look good, but it only costs $16 for 8 new plugs, so I just throw the used plugs away.
 
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And just for the record, I am a very aggressive leaner on the ground, not so much in-flight. I tend to lean only above 5,000' density altitude (as per Lycoming's recommendations).
Click to expand...
Hi Derrick. I would check out Mike Busch's article on leaning I followed it on my Aero Sport Power IO-360 and have just pulled my BR8ES plugs after 1 year (100 hours) and they are pretty much in normal condition as per NGK's article - just a bit browner - no sign of fouling.

Leaning in flight brings so much fuel $$ benefits and whilst not sure of the Lycoming O-320 manual the IO-360 manual definitely recommends leaning and in particular the Fuel/Air ratio chart shows the benefits of leaning on CHT's as they start to fall significantly just before you get to economy cruise.
 
I had the same problem!!

Ours is a low compression 6.7-1 with P-Mags. I found leaning aggressively on the ground as well as in the air helped a lot but it didn't eliminate the fouling. Because of the low compression I decided to go hotter with the plugs and fitted BR7ES's. This helped a lot but still didn't eliminate the fowling. I then fitted BR6ES's and dropped the plug gap to .22 and now we have just over 200 hrs without any more fowling and I have only changed the plugs twice in that time.

Bob
 
A thorough understanding of this graph opens up a whole world of things

Landmarksgraph_zpsbfb07cbb.gif

Courtesy of Advanced Pilot Seminars (USA) www.advancedpilot.com

Next seminar is in October, 18-20.

Bob, the Lycoming manual really does not help the pilot much in the region you are referring to. That being said it is a fixed spark timing air cooled engine running gasoline, just like every other.

The little O-320 is a ripper running LOP. But like all things it needs to be intake leak free, good plugs and ignition.

For the OP. Are you using the correct heat range plug?
 
Wow,, I was just about to open a new thread for two reasons: First, like a dummy, I had a typo on the thread title! Second, I didn't see any activity and I have an update:

Tossed in a new set of plugs because I was convinced it was a lead-fouled plug that was the issue,, surprise! Still ran crappy.

Called/emailed Brad at EmagAir. This was OSH week mind you, so I was expecting no response. Much to my pleasure and surprise, Brad took time away from his duties at the booth to call me. Wow! I can't say enough about his support,, and in fact he just called me again today for a follow-up!

Anyway, he suggested that I check the wire terminals, all of them, but especially the three-wire coil connector that you really don't mess with during the install. I do remember checking the two securing screws that mount the connector, but to access the individual terminal screws, you must first remove the connector. I guess I quietly assumed that since this was a factory assembly, it would be okay.

All six (3 per mag X 2) terminals were "loose". Not falling out loose, but all required at least a turn and a half to snug where I would feel comfortable.
Brad mentioned that he was aware of several mags that left his factory with loose terminals.

Since then, she runs perfect!

I will still have to address the lead issue,,, I am sure that didn't go away. I thank you all for the suggestions. For now, I will lean more aggressively, and then decide if I want to switch to a hotter plug.

But for now, I am happy.

One more thing:

As apologetic as Brad was, I still take full responsibility for not checking everything during the install, and for that I am embarrassed. I am usually more thorough than that. And since my conversation with, I do seem to recall a post somewhere on the VAF about those very terminals. Sloppy note keeping on my part.

Anyway, all is well,
And for all you P-Mag owners, that have not checked the coil terminals, I suggest you do so. And rest assured your product carries solid and honest support from EmagAir.

Thanks again everyone!
 
Hello Derrick,

My configuration is Mattituck IO-360, P-mags, RV-8, .028" plug gaps (BR8ES). I aborted my first test flight a couple days ago and then again this morning because of fowled lower plugs during my run-up checks. I pulled the plugs after today's abort and #1 (lower) gap was entirely filled w/ deposits, and #2 (lower) gap was 1/2 filled. Others were just black. Cleaned them all and reset the gap to .032.

I think I'll check those other terminals tomorrow (I never thought to check the factory assembly either!) ... I appreciate your sharing, Derrick ... without your timely note I'm sure I would have been buying new plugs and calling the emag people too! I will report back my status ...
 
One other thing to think about. I also had problems with rough running on my pmags. Turned out the auto spark plug boots were partially backing off. Put some dielectric grease on each and put a zip tie on the boot. No more problems. Was taught this by one of the race mechanics at the Reno Air Races.
 
Just wanted to throw another data point out there:

My engine (angle-valve 360) has around 300 hours running BR8ES plugs on dual electronic ignition, gapped at 0.035".

Ran a second engine (parallel-valve 360) for 20 hours with the more expensive platinum version of the same plug (BR8EIX, I believe), and had a whole bunch of lead fouling. Switched back to the BR8ES, no problems since.

I second the boot zip tie trick!
 
Fouling Issue w/ new Mattituck TMXIO-360

Hi guys, I wanted to report back my analysis so others might benefit:

From my earlier post you'll see I was experiencing bad fouling trying to get my first flight off. After repeated cleanings and ground runs I was able to get that first flight in (because of a short taxi to the runway), but continued to have fouling problems (especially with a longer taxi). The oil in the cylinders (from the unbroken-in engine) seemed to exacerbate the problem.

I finally figured out that my fouled plugs seemed to easily foul again. So I'm blaming my ground runs after checking everything else, including idle mixture (which I adjusted 1/4 turn leaner). I got new BR8ES's ($21 for 8), gapped them to .034, and flew test flights 2&3 today, carefully leaning when possible. I am hopeful this problem is now in my past.

On another note, I want to thank everyone who posts here ... you've been a huge help during my building phase. Now that I'm in Phase 1, your support is even better!

BTW, I just want to confirm what you all already know ... this is one sweet ride!
 
Just to add another data point:
IO-360 parallel valve engine, 8.5/1 pistons, cold air induction sump.
Running two P-mag 114 ignitions with BR9ES auto plugs in all cylinders for the last two years. (started with BR8's the first year)
I make sure I buy the plugs with the solid tops instead of those screw on versions.

I make sure I set it lean on the ground once started and also after landing when taxiing back. Never once have I seen any lead build up or fouling of the plugs and I change them out every other year.

I would stick with the BR-8's until you resolve the fouling issue, as you certainly don't want a colder range plug right now.
 
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