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No Full Flaps?

GHARBEN

Active Member
I have been flying N12HR for about 4 months. Wonderful fun airplane. Very hard to slow down on landing.
This RV 4 will only use its first notch of flaps. It pops out of the second notch immediately when you pull the flap handle up to the second notch.
Any thoughts?
Takes a lot of slipping and tail wagging to make a 180 approach!
Must fix it!
 
I have been flying N12HR for about 4 months. Wonderful fun airplane. Very hard to slow down on landing.
This RV 4 will only use its first notch of flaps. It pops out of the second notch immediately when you pull the flap handle up to the second notch.
Any thoughts?
Takes a lot of slipping and tail wagging to make a 180 approach!
Must fix it!

Re-make the flap "notches". And while you are at it, add another position.
first notch = 15?, second notch = 28?, third notch = 40?. This will give you the optimal take-off position.
 
Not sure there?s room for three ?notches?. On my RV4, I moved the front seat aft almost 3? and the seat back angle is where the notches are. My seat back is now closer the the fulcrum. I had 3 positions before moving my seat back (two notches - no room for three), now I have two positions (one notch), up and down. He may have a different flap setup. Mine was built (not by me) according to plans.

The OP definitely needs to remake his notches. They should be built with a negative slope, both on the flap lever and on the notch piece riveted to the seat back angle. This holds the flap lever in the selected position, reinforced by air loads on the deflected flaps.
 
Ya, my flap handle will pop out of full flaps in my airplane quite often... Seems to be getting worse with this quarantine, eating all the time. Seems to happen a lot after the holiday season too. I need to start running and exercise again... :(
 
Be Careful !!

My recommendation is fix it soon..there have been some situations that went bad when they popped up going slow to land, and it can be aggravated with a backseater that bumps it with a foot. You should easily be able to replace the detent/notched piece, or do what I (and many others) did and install electrics..I built mine with them from the start after riding backseat in a friends with manuals. I have my flap up/down buttons on the top of my stick grip, and can control them without taking a hand off anything. Its just natural to be looking out the canopy in the pattern turns and see the flaps going down without reaching/looking for a switch or lever...way easier when a go around call is made too.
 
Flap Handle

This may or may not have any relevance to your problem - I see that your airplane was finished in 1991 and was probably started in the middle to late '80's.

The callout for the (early S/N's) flap handle (Drwg. 34) was for a 1 1/4" x 3/16" 2024-T4 aluminum flat bar. This handle, with a 2" offset to the left, proved to be too "flexible" to operate satisfactorily, especially at higher airspeeds - it would "twist" badly and make the maintenance of flap position somewhat suspect.

A lot of us upgraded this part (and stop blocks as well) to a 1/4" thick bar, and reduced the offset to 1", reducing the torsional load on application. There were instances of passenger's left foot "bumping" the flap handle (when engaged) causing it to release the flaps. We also "biased" the handle a bit by bending it slightly inboard to insure that it "wanted" to mate with the stop blocks when being operated.

Also, as other responses have indicated, a re-establishment of the "angle" cuts for the stops as well as the (mating) one on the handle should be made. Van's drawing doesn't call out the mating angle directly, but I scaled it at 30* - both the fixed "stop" as well as the mating section on the handle need to be maintained at this angle for good operating characteristics.

With the original flap handle at 3/16" thickness, and the grip with a 2" offset to the left, application caused a CCW twist that moved the bottom of the handle away from its mating stop block. Sometimes (especially after a bit of wear) the two surfaces would not align well enough to guarantee flap operation. Getting rid of some of the torsional load & stiffening the handle by increasing its thickness seemed to help. I flew my -4 almost 1700 hours and didn't have any issues with the manual flaps with the mods mentioned above.

As I said at the beginning -none of the above may be relevant to your situation, but is a bit of a history lesson on this particular part.

YMMV

HFS
 
A notch up...

I have been flying N12HR for about 4 months. Wonderful fun airplane. Very hard to slow down on landing.
This RV 4 will only use its first notch of flaps. It pops out of the second notch immediately when you pull the flap handle up to the second notch.
Any thoughts?
Takes a lot of slipping and tail wagging to make a 180 approach!
Must fix it!
Hey GH,
I built and started flying my Four back when we had to shoo Dinosaurs off the taxiways to go fly. The RV4 plans (if you built yours)have a great description and drawing of the front seat back flap notch block the handle seats into when you lift it.
If the notches are small per the plans, I found that final approach speed faster than 60 Knots would "pop" it out of the second notch, hence retracting the flaps. Being an F16 Pilot, I'm good with it as it does essentially the same thing with hydraulic pressure.
So...
I started experimenting with slower approach speeds which took practice with my Sterba "big bite" wood prop. I found that slowing to 65Knots (70mph) on downwind and trim almost full aft the RV4 would get into a "groove" where you control aimpoint with pitch and sink rate with power. At 60 Knots, power on and a fairly nose high approach the airplane would not float and you literally could fly it right to the ground, flaps fully extended.
The best part was my flaps stayed down and I could now quickly retract them for proper STOL quick stop technique. I also made a few small adjustments to my flap handle to keep it where I put it, mainly filing it with a more pronounced notch.
Email me offline if you have any questions...:)
V/R
Smokey

[email protected]
 
I agree with Smokey. I?ve also filed a more aggressive notch on my flap lever and the new notch I made when I moved my seat back aft. Also, my flaps down stall speed is about 48k and clean break is at about 53K, so 65K is a safe initial approach speed (1.3 VS.). Max flap extension speed is 87K (100 mph) on my airplane. Getting the flap lever into my one and only notch (35*), takes a pretty good pull at that speed, but if I do it at that speed, it stays there. Slowing to about 60K as I cross the end of the runway results in enough reserve energy to flare with not too much float. I can dump my manual flaps in about 1 second for a really nice short field landing.
 
Flap handle retention

Hi Scott:

I riveted .063 on the outside of the block to act as a keeper. It hangs down about 1/16 so the handle is captured under load (in the hanger, it is useless). The uncommanded pop out is highly undesirable.

Up on to my soapbox: the manual flap control is positive, and instant whether deploying or retracting. Maintenance is non-existent. Failure modes (besides pop out!) are few. And....people go for the push button electric flaps. Not sure why. And there you have it!


My pattern speeds: 80 downwind 65 base 60 short final. My ancient round airspeed and brand new Dynon Skyview put the light vso at 43-45 KIAS. I have ample bouyancy at 60.
John
I can send pics of my mod if you want. Lemme know. John N95JF
 
Go electric

I realize this thread is about fixing the notches. It's pretty easy, just make them sharper, I've done it. But consider switching the flaps to electric. There's so precious little room in that cockpit for a big handle that gets in the way of the GIB's feet (not that I actually care).

I did this conversion nicely on a 6 and my most recent RV-4A already has it. On the -4 you weld one extra tube to the flap control. The new tube drops into the center bay near where the elevator push tube connects to the rear-seat control. It's off-center to avoid all those elevator tubes. You can use a 3" throw linear actuator and it looks really simple. Put ticks on the flaps at 10, 20 & 30 degrees and you have a position indicator.

I can send pictures.
 
Hey GH,
I started experimenting with slower approach speeds which took practice with my Sterba "big bite" wood prop. I found that slowing to 65Knots (70mph) on downwind and trim almost full aft the RV4 would get into a "groove" where you control aimpoint with pitch and sink rate with power. At 60 Knots, power on and a fairly nose high approach the airplane would not float and you literally could fly it right to the ground, flaps fully extended.
The best part was my flaps stayed down and I could now quickly retract them for proper STOL quick stop technique. I also made a few small adjustments to my flap handle to keep it where I put it, mainly filing it with a more pronounced notch.
Email me offline if you have any questions...:)
V/R
Smokey

[email protected]

This is a good technique for minimizing landing distance etc. Basically you are flying on the back side of the power curve where more thrust is required rather than less as you slow down. This is how Eric Brown managed to land a mosquito on a carrier even though the normal maximum allowable speed for the arrestor gear was 20mph lower than the power off stall speed of that airplane.

The only downside (no pun intended) is that if the engine quits you are screwed. You have no energy and reduced lift margin to stall. You are in a corner and there is no way out but down. With a power off glide you don?t have that issue, but there are other disadvantages like floating, increased landing distance etc. Nothing is free. Just be aware of the risks. Perhaps try it high up to see how much height you need to get enough energy back to flare. You might be surprised.

Whatever anyone chooses to do, and your risk level is your decision, you should fix the flap handle. An uncommanded change in flap position should not be tolerated.
 
Any short field landing, where you are slowed to min maneuver under power might result in landing short if your engine fails on final, but it is something that needs to be practiced if you plan to use this technique for real. We should all practice this if we have a destination requiring a very short landing, maybe with obstacles, before we actually need it. This works very well in an RV (especially an RV4). Another thing that we should always practice, and something I see violated too many times, is the plan that I need to keep the airport/runway within gliding distance of my airplane with no power, whenever I commit to land there. If I have traffic in the pattern ahead of me preventing me to do my normal approach, I stay at my initial approach speed, around 100K, until I’m ready to ‘commit’ to a landing, which is the point that I can make the runway if I have a power loss.

When I transitioned from an RV8 with a constant speed prop to an RV4 with a fixed pitched prop, this required a fairly major shift in energy management for me - for the better if you value your time before touchdown (somewhere) in the event of power loss. My RV4 will glide like a sailplane, seemingly, compared with my previous CS RV8, which had a glide range of an airplane with no wings. Sink rate could exceed 1000’ per minute, and I needed some energy to arrest that sink rate in a normal power off landing, without flirting with an accelerated stall. I exaggerate a little here, but the difference is real, mostly because of the FP V.S. CS prop. Crossing the end of the runway in my RV4 at 60 KIAS with full flaps and idle power leaves me plenty of cushion for a comfortable flair to a 3-point, not quite stalled landing. Full stall 3-point usually results in a tailwheel first touch down (and I have the long gear), which I do occasionally, but that’s not what I’m trying for.

OK, I’ve hijacked this thread - flap position integrity in a manual flap RV4 is the OP’s problem. I say, fix those notches. Manual flaps is a big advantage in my opinion, in more ways than one. I’ve had 5 RV’s, 3 of which I’ve built, and this is the first one I’ve had with manual flaps. If I were to build another (never say never), I would build manual flaps. Lighter, simpler, zero maintenance, instant up/down. What’s not to like? Tell your GIB to move his left foot over for a second while you position your flaps. What’s hard/inconvenient about that? For you guys that have never experienced these, you don’t know what you are missing.
 
I certaintly appreciate everyone's help on this flap issue. It is amazing to recieve this kind of support on RV's. With everyone's thoughts in mind, I have decided to replace the 1/8" thick latches with 1/4" thick matetial.
This should fix the immediate problem. I may look at the electric option later.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
G Harben
RV 4
N12HR
 
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