Audio Panel required w two (2) GTR 200 remote mount radios

When configured with a Garmin G3X touch panel would an audio panel be required for two (2) Garmin GTR 200 remote mount radios? 2 seat airplane.

If the audio panel is not required what am I missing out on by not installing?

Thanks. Don...

Gooniebird said:

When configured with a Garmin G3X touch panel would an audio panel be required for two (2) Garmin GTR 200 remote mount radios? 2 seat airplane.

If the audio panel is not required what am I missing out on by not installing?

Thanks. Don...

Click to expand...

For all practical purposes you need one, mainly to control the receive and transmit functions between the two radios, as well as your other audio inputs/outputs.

That said, you will likely see a few folks jump in and tell you that you can kludge together something that will work with various switches (they are right, it will be serviceable), but won't be anything close to a real audio panel when it comes to overall functionality and usability. For all practical purposes for "most" people an audio panel is the way to go when you have 2 radios plus multiple other audio inputs.

I've been one of the guys who has "rolled my own" in the past - but that was when audio panels were thousands of dollars, not hundreds as they are now so there isn't much good reason not to use one anymore.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

Stein, much appreciated. I'm not interested in creating a "one off". Thx for the advice

Hello Don,

In addition to the advice above, note that if you did not install an audio panel you would still need an intercom of some kind, as the GTR 20/200 internal intercom is only for single-radio use. Better I think to plan for a proper audio panel in the first place, as Stein suggested.

- Matt

Matt, thanks for the heads up, that was actually part of my qwest which I didn't articulate well. I know the GTR 200 has good reviews using the on board intercom, but wasn't sure how two would work together. Thx for clearing that up.

Another question would be ...do two remotes or one remote and one panel? If the G3X went belly up keeping one in the panel would be helpful wouldn't it?

Gooniebird said:

Another question would be ...do two remotes or one remote and one panel?

Click to expand...

Hello Don,

This is a great question, but the answer depends a lot on personal preferences. One builder may want "all glass" with everything remote-mounted, whereas the next builder may desire the ability to interact with the comm radio through a dedicated panel-mounted interface. Ultimately that's why we make both kinds of radios.

One thing worth pointing out is that the GTR 20 remote-mounted radio will automatically switch to an emergency frequency of your choice (default is 121.5 MHz) if communication with all displays is lost for some reason.

- Matt

An alternative

Gooniebird said:

Matt, thanks for the heads up, that was actually part of my qwest which I didn't articulate well. I know the GTR 200 has good reviews using the on board intercom, but wasn't sure how two would work together. Thx for clearing that up.

Another question would be ...do two remotes or one remote and one panel? If the G3X went belly up keeping one in the panel would be helpful wouldn't it?

Click to expand...

Hi Don, you might consider the PAR200A. It would provide an audio panel with IntelliVox, Bluetooth capability for phone and music streaming, and a remote radio made by Trig Avionics.

The other important thing to know is that only the audio panel is installed in the panel and the MAP is $2595, which includes everything but the harness.

Www.ps-engineering.com/PAR200.shtml

Aviation Consumer names it "Gear of the Year a few months ago!

Mark, why not the PAR100EX? Isn't is pretty much the non-certified version of the 200A?

PAR100EX

krw5927 said:

Mark, why not the PAR100EX? Isn't is pretty much the non-certified version of the 200A?

Click to expand...

That's a solution too but the small difference in price, the Trig Radio, IMHO, is a much much better radio.

Truth be told, the sales of our PAR100EX have dropped to a level where we will probably discontinue the it in the next couple of months.

mscheuer said:

That's a solution too but the small difference in price, the Trig Radio, IMHO, is a much much better radio.

Truth be told, the sales of our PAR100EX have dropped to a level where we will probably discontinue the it in the next couple of months.

Click to expand...

Mark, I currently have the PAR100EX, along with the M760REM com in my RV-7A. What is the status of these, since the PAR100EX has been discontinued? Do I still have support from PS Engineering for the audio panel? How about from MicroAir for the remote com?

Since controlling the two remote-mount GTR's from the G3X requires more than just audio in/out (you'll need a data connection of some kind too, I imagine?), switching it with some cobbled-together setup could be much harder than just switching two stand-alone radios with a multi-pole switch. Unless the G3X becomes the "brains" of the radio, and just tells it what frequency to use on an as-needed basis?

I'm just thinking how my GTR200 (standalone) works, with the Aera 500 connected to it. The GTR always has all of the nearby airports ready in the GPS memory section, thanks to the data link.

I'll say what nobody else will say... A good audio panel is THE primary building block upon which the rest of a good instrument panel stands. Spend the time and money to do it right. Later, when you add a radio or an audio input from an EFIS or something similar, you'll be so glad you did it right. And let's face it, there is nothing more fatiguing than a hiss or buzz in the headset. Pay attention to your shields and grounding and your efforts will be rewarded by years of excellent service.

FWIW I have used the PAR 100 EX when I had G3X legacy displays and it was a "kick ***" unit! I talked to a teammate on it at over 200 miles at 10k feet.
The blue tooth worked great as well as the intellivox intercom.

Now, with G3X touch displays and the new GMA 245 intercom from Garmin I have all the same capabilities I had with the PAR100EX when it's paired with the GTR 20/200 at the same price point of the new PS unit.

The additional capability that the G3X Touch/ GMA 245 gives makes it a "no brainer" if you are going with the G3X!

Oh yeah, been there done that with a switch for 2 comms instead of an audio panel, NIGHTMARE!

jthocker said:

Oh yeah, been there done that with a switch for 2 comms instead of an audio panel, NIGHTMARE!

Click to expand...

Granted the single switch is not for everyone and is only practical for simple, basic panels, but I don't see why it would ever be a nightmare.
I've been flying with the simple switch for over 23 years and never had a problem.

Mel said:

Granted the single switch is not for everyone and is only practical for simple, basic panels, but I don't see why it would ever be a nightmare.
I've been flying with the simple switch for over 23 years and never had a problem.

Click to expand...

+1
Even some not so simple panels. These days there seems to be less, not more, devices to turn on - listen - turn off (MB, ADF, even VOR, all gone or going). I do fly IFR and the 1 switch plus volume controls plus an intercom with lots of unswitched inputs (for various warning tones, xm radio, etc) works for me.

BobTurner said:

+1
Even some not so simple panels. These days there seems to be less, not more, devices to turn on - listen - turn off (MB, ADF, even VOR, all gone or going). I do fly IFR and the 1 switch plus volume controls plus an intercom with lots of unswitched inputs (for various warning tones, xm radio, etc) works for me.

Click to expand...

Of course Bob and Mel would chime in with their experience. As Stein stated, someone will say that they have operated for years just fine with a switch setup.

It's cheap, but not optimal.

jthocker said:

It's cheap, but not optimal. ��

Click to expand...

Never said it was. Just works for me.

And like Stein said; "They won't be anything close to a real audio panel when it comes to overall functionality and usability."

I never said anything against audio panels. They are great and the proper solution for most people.

Easy

jthocker said:

Of course Bob and Mel would chime in with their experience. As Stein stated, someone will say that they have operated for years just fine with a switch setup.

It's cheap, but not optimal. ��

Click to expand...

It actually may be optimal for a simple VFR panel when coupled with a good intercom.

Why have N1, N2, ADF, DME switches sitting there that are totally useless for your set up?

If you can make any of your harnesses, the switch panel is trivial -



The double pole Xmit select switch makes the stick mounted "flip-flop" switch control the comm radio that is active.

The overlay is simple and clear -



EFIS outputs/alarms can go straight into the intercom on dedicated pins and volume/mute can be controlled from the EFIS

A simple switch may have been optimal when the $$ difference between an intercom and audio panel was thousands of dollars, but now that it's literally single hundreds of dollars (sometimes even less if you scrounge), there just is no strongly credible argument NOT to use an audio panel. If you're using two radios, it means that you likely have at a minimum $10K of goodies in your panel. Why mess around with a sub-optimal (yet I concede it will work) solution? Gil's point USED to be valid, but there haven't been ADF or DME switches on experimental audio panels for many years now. Instead they've been optimized for what experimental builders want - things like multiple radio controls, multiple alert inputs, configurable alerts, switches for managing aux feeds, extremely strong music management, phone call management, crew/passenger management between pilots/passengers, bluetooth connectivity, USB interface/charging (PSE), etc..

Being stubborn, a Luddite, or proving a point that you CAN do it that way doesn't count!

Cheers,
Stein

SteinAir said:

A simple switch may have been optimal when the $$ difference between an intercom and audio panel was thousands of dollars, but now that it's literally single hundreds of dollars (sometimes even less if you scrounge), there just is no strongly credible argument NOT to use an audio panel. If you're using two radios, it means that you likely have at a minimum $10K of goodies in your panel. Why mess around with a sub-optimal (yet I concede it will work) solution? Gil's point USED to be valid, but there haven't been ADF or DME switches on experimental audio panels for many years now. Instead they've been optimized for what experimental builders want - things like multiple radio controls, multiple alert inputs, configurable alerts, switches for managing aux feeds, extremely strong music management, phone call management, crew/passenger management between pilots/passengers, bluetooth connectivity, USB interface/charging (PSE), etc..

Being stubborn, a Luddite, or proving a point that you CAN do it that way doesn't count!

Cheers,
Stein

Click to expand...

Thanks Stein! I just gave up!

My plane only has one comm. My next upgrade is to add a GTR 200. A switch seems adequate but a quality low cost audio panel (245) seems optimal.

SteinAir said:

A simple switch may have been optimal when the $$ difference between an intercom and audio panel was thousands of dollars, but now that it's literally single hundreds of dollars (sometimes even less if you scrounge), there just is no strongly credible argument NOT to use an audio panel. If you're using two radios, it means that you likely have at a minimum $10K of goodies in your panel. Why mess around with a sub-optimal (yet I concede it will work) solution? Gil's point USED to be valid, but there haven't been ADF or DME switches on experimental audio panels for many years now. Instead they've been optimized for what experimental builders want - things like multiple radio controls, multiple alert inputs, configurable alerts, switches for managing aux feeds, extremely strong music management, phone call management, crew/passenger management between pilots/passengers, bluetooth connectivity, USB interface/charging (PSE), etc..

Being stubborn, a Luddite, or proving a point that you CAN do it that way doesn't count!

Cheers,
Stein

Click to expand...

Good point Stein.... I confess to only being a little bit of a Luddite after spending my whole career on the cutting edge of electronics.

However if you are going for an all Dynon system with the Dynon intercom what good would an audio panel as shown do?

In a simple VFR setup in a two place the items you mention "extremely strong music management, phone call management, crew/passenger management between pilots/passengers" have a very low appeal for me.

I have just returned from a 3 day music festival in Flagstaff, but think that music is a distraction for pilots - probably a minority opinion though...

I still think the switch arrangement actually is optimal for a simple VFR system in a two place, especially if you are using Dynon components that give a lot more location flexibility on your panel by not confining you to a 6 1/4 inch radio stack.

az_gila said:

I still think the switch arrangement actually is optimal for a simple VFR system in a two place, especially if you are using Dynon components that give a lot more location flexibility on your panel by not confining you to a 6 1/4 inch radio stack.

Click to expand...

And that's great - we're all entitled to our own thinks...but let's not confuse "optimal" with "adequate" when referencing the subject of this actual thread. We can hypothesize about a million different corner of the envelope scenarios that may make sense for certain individuals in their own minds (and in reality) and any infinite number of equipment maships, but as a whole the premise still stands. I'm sure you're solution will eventually work fine for you, but I sure as heck would never recommend that path for someone using the actual items the OP asked about ---- 2 years ago (I'm betting he made his decision by now).

If you have more than one radio and an EFIS, an audio panel still makes more sense all the way around (that is a fact). What makes little sense is spending the time to wire up one or more switches (after already spending hundreds of dollars on an intercom), then coming up with labels, etc....all to try an mimic a solution which basically costs little more in true value (if you value time as anything other than free) yet provides none/if not negative benefit over just getting the best solution from the get/go. Also, there are alternatives to the 6.25" panel mount audio panel you're afraid of getting stuck with. Remote mount versions, vertical versions, smaller 2-3" versions, etc.. On top of that it's not like panel space is in any way limited when going Skyview anyway (most of the stuff is remote mounted).

Look, we get for YOU the switch arrangement makes sense in your mind (and as I conceded will functionally kinda/sorta work) and in your current project - it doesn't mean it's bad...just not the "optimum" solution in any way/shape/form related to this thread. The point overall is that is makes little sense for most people using two radios in most instances (specifically the OP's question in reference to this thread before the drift) - that is a fact. The OP wasn't asking about a simple Dynon VFR setup ...and that's fine for you to mention, but certainly not terribly factually relevant to the original question relating to two Garmin radios (which is sort of like 4 because of the remote monitoring) and a G3X; or to the follow up question about Rich asked about his PAR audio panel.

In the end I'll say that my opinion is this is kinda of a dubious discussion to be having now...the only reason this thread was resurrected from it's 2 year old slumber was another totally unrelated question that nobody really answered anyway (certainly not in any way related to this whole new switch/audio discussion)!!

The answer is simple: Primer + Sliding Canopy + Taildragger + Injected + Constant Speed prop!!!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, as a response to Rich's add on question - I'm sure either PSE or we will take care of you with your PAR as best we all can!

Ok, I'm trying to figure out why a "basic VFR" airplane needs 2 radios.
(Formation leads not withstanding)
The newer radios all have "stby freq" monitoring.

jthocker said:

Ok, I'm trying to figure out why a "basic VFR" airplane needs 2 radios.
(Formation leads not withstanding)
The newer radios all have "stby freq" monitoring.

Click to expand...

Good question.

1. It's better as a reliability backup than getting a hand-held out of your case and using it. Noting most radio failures are in the antenna cabling and harnesses (our installations) than the radio itself...

2. With Flight Following I like to stay on the ATC frequency and just use Comm 2 to monitor AWOS and other weather stuff. - That is just my preference.

Flying long cross-countries in my Tiger the only two buttons on the fancy (in it's time, but now it's old) audio panel that I use are the Comm 1 and Comm 2 audio output buttons.

The stand-by frequency monitoring is OK, but can be "fiddley" to activate/control, and it doesn't give you an alternate TX source.

As Stein says - personal preference.

and, another contrarian opinion:

I flew for many years behind a PS-8000 panel, and it was very good. But it wouldn't do what I wanted, and, at least in 2010 when my -10 panel was 'frozen', no commercial panel would. What I wanted were volume controls. For everything. I ended up with 5 (pilot intercom, pilot music, copilot radio, copilot music, copilot intercom). And cell phone blue tooth direct to my headphones. Lots of unswitched inputs for AOA tones, warning tones, voice traffic calls, etc., as well as audio from two coms and a nav. Is the audio quality as good as a PS? No, especially not the intercom, which is all analog circuits, and doesn't have the fancy (digital, I presume) noise reduction circuits that the PS does. But it's okay; and the music is quite good quality. Was it cost-effective, if I valued my time at say $30/hr? No way. But don't we build because it's a labor of love?
Having now flown with it for 5 years, I have zero regrets (biased, of course).

OK so I have been called deplorable and now a Luddite. I see where that comes from since both my parents were very hi tech in the working world and completely threw it off at retirement. Similar to Bob, Gil and others, I chose the minimalist path. I had a new PSE intercom in my hands during building. Sold it. I have 2 coms, music, phone and all the warning tones I want and not a peep of static. Simple com 1 and com 2 switch.

I do not consider this a reduction in functionality since I can listen to 1 or up to 3 frequencies at the same time. Very handy in IFR.

One thing with "audio panels" surprises me.

With the gradual shift from traditional radio navigation, and the declining need for listening to an NDB, the marker beacons, and the inefficiency of trying to identify morse code while flying the high workload of IMC, why do we not see a simplified audio panel?

For those using a switch, if there were a minimalist audio panel, would you prefer it over your switch?

With nearly every COMM radio now providing a robust intercom and audio inputs, what is left for the minimalist audio panel beyond radio switching?

humptybump said:

One thing with "audio panels" surprises me.

With the gradual shift from traditional radio navigation, and the declining need for listening to an NDB, the marker beacons, and the inefficiency of trying to identify morse code while flying the high workload of IMC, why do we not see a simplified audio panel?

For those using a switch, if there were a minimalist audio panel, would you prefer it over your switch?

With nearly every COMM radio now providing a robust intercom and audio inputs, what is left for the minimalist audio panel beyond radio switching?

Click to expand...

Thanks Stein. This looks a full audio panel. As they describe it, "PMA4000 is a 4-place panel mounted intercom with added capability for switching two communications transceivers and navigation receivers".

I'd guess what I was attempting to describe would really only come from the COMM vendors. Since the majority of COMMs now have the intercom and plenty of inputs for all of the audio sources, the only thing we miss is a coherent radio switching technology.

Adding a full blown audio panel has two challenges - one is space and the other is psychological.

For me personally, I struggle with panel space. While I could remote some audio panels, that defeats the big reason for the second radio - when the EFIS display goes, so goes access to every remote avionics. I opted for a remote COMM. In hindsight that was my mistake. If my radio didn't disappear with my EFIS screen, I'd have more confidence and options. In truth, if I had the panel space, I'd add the latest Garmin audio panel and a panel mounted second COMM.

To a much less extent, I suffer from the notion that I paid for a very nice radio with wonderful intercom capabilities only to disable all of that functionality and buy it a second time.

Still, we all make our choices. That's what EAB gives us.

(... and now I have the Rolling Stones stuck in my head)

SteinAir said:

A simple switch may have been optimal when the $$ difference between an intercom and audio panel was thousands of dollars, but now that it's literally single hundreds of dollars (sometimes even less if you scrounge), there just is no strongly credible argument NOT to use an audio panel.

Click to expand...

Not trying to be stubborn or a luddite, but... My last two radios (iCOM IC-A210 and Garmin GTR200) both had really good built-in intercoms. With the simple switch system diagrammed above, you could just switch from one internal intercom to the other when switching radios. So you'd save on intercom cost as well.

The simple circuit above also seem like it would operate just like an audio panel anyway... One switch to choose which radio to transmit on, and one switch for each radio to turn on the audio. So apart from getting a factory-built chassis and a lot of potentially un-needed extra functionality, an audio panel doesn't add much.

Of course, if you still want to be fancy with other audio inputs, you could couple the simple switch with a simple AMX audio mixer from VX-Aviation: http://vx-aviation.com/AMX.html.

The real benefit I see for the newer audio panels is that they offer bluetooth. My Lightspeed headset has bluetooth built-in, but that's just for me... I want bluetooth that operates like it does in my car...

SteinAir said:

Click to expand...

How many new panels do you now see with two nav radios?