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RV-10 Transition for a Noob

OP- I realized that I went down the rabbit hole of talking about builder assist and didn't actually answer your question.

If it were me, I would want to get some stick time before I jumped into something of the magnitude you're talking about. As others have said, any low time pilot transitioning into a fast complex airplane is going to be in for a steep learning curve and some insurance sticker shock for sure. Not saying it cant be done, but you should for sure do your due diligence.

Once thats done, if you're still convinced that the RV10 is "the one" then sure, go for it. Just have realistic expectations, and by that I mean understand that you're not just going to hop in it and blast off, perfectly proficient, like you're flying the easiest airplane to fly on the face of the planet (the C-172).

Also, if you're willing to spend close to $300k on a RV10, you can certainly afford a C182 thats not 40 years old, Heck, you could get an A36 Bonanza for not much more than that.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
 
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One topic that has been brought up a few times that needs to be highlighted.

You REALLY need to call your insurance company and ask then:
A - Would you even be able to get insurance on an RV-10 as a 100hr PPL?
B - What would that cost?

I suspect you will be surprised by how hard A is to accomplish, and how high B is. We're not talking $1,500/yr here, I suspect its $4k/yr+, if it's even available.

And remember, there is a reason for above.
 
Apologies, I found this forum on the Vans website and found the builder assist recommendations listed here. I’ve been researching all over the place, they seem to be the most liked. I see my question has entered to what seemingly has been a touchy subject with the rules. I understand there is a purpose in why many here have become builders versus just buying. The engineering sided brain is what fascinates the mechanics of flying. The pure enjoyment of knowing it was your hands that created something that flies. It is cool when you think about it. While I enjoy learning about systems of the planes, I don’t feel the urge to work on them. I just really like the aircraft. The reviews and comparisons to SR22’s at third of price was very attractive. I would like to purchase something that can last me 20 years, and with modern technologies. When I had time, I had no money. Now I have money (not a baller but a saver), just no time. It’s at the point with my parents where I need to take them to doctor appointments. My main purpose of flight was to get to Orlando to Pensacola and back a couple times a month. While the top speeds I’m no where used to, it seems the minimum speeds are not much higher. I am contacting insurance companies tomorrow. If it’s as bad as some say, then I keep building hours on something not as big of a leap.
 
I am contacting insurance companies tomorrow.

You only need to make two calls. All but one insurance company use independent agents, called ‘brokers’. One good broker should be able to get you quotes from all the companies (there aren’t that many) except that one. Shop for a broker based on their service. I already recommended Gallagher but there are other good ones, too. The one exception is Avemco. They use their own agents, you’ll need to contact them directly to get a quote from them.
Let us know what you hear from them, we’re all curious. Unfortunately I’m a pessimist, but would be happy to be wrong. (My ‘bet’: You will get zero quotes except from Avemco; they’ll want $8k/yr, for hull plus $100k/person liability. PP license done, 10 hours dual in type.)
 
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Apologies, I found this forum on the Vans website and found the builder assist recommendations listed here. I’ve been researching all over the place, they seem to be the most liked. I see my question has entered to what seemingly has been a touchy subject with the rules. I understand there is a purpose in why many here have become builders versus just buying. The engineering sided brain is what fascinates the mechanics of flying. The pure enjoyment of knowing it was your hands that created something that flies. It is cool when you think about it. While I enjoy learning about systems of the planes, I don’t feel the urge to work on them. I just really like the aircraft. The reviews and comparisons to SR22’s at third of price was very attractive. I would like to purchase something that can last me 20 years, and with modern technologies. When I had time, I had no money. Now I have money (not a baller but a saver), just no time. It’s at the point with my parents where I need to take them to doctor appointments. My main purpose of flight was to get to Orlando to Pensacola and back a couple times a month. While the top speeds I’m no where used to, it seems the minimum speeds are not much higher. I am contacting insurance companies tomorrow. If it’s as bad as some say, then I keep building hours on something not as big of a leap.

If the main purpose at this point in time is to travel to look after your parents, then would you consider buying a completed version of one of the two seat RVs, e.g. 7A or 9A? Insurance will be lower, there're more for sale to choose from (than 10's) and travel time will certainly be quicker than most factory planes, or driving.
 
I will try to un-confuse you. If the FAA ever gets an administrator who says that the FSDO’s interpretation of the FARs was incorrect - that what the law says is what was meant, that EAB aircraft have to have more than half the labor done by unpaid ‘amateurs’ - then he will revoke all the airworthiness certificates that were issued on aircraft that did not actually meet the EAB law. While draconian, it is not without precedent. Recently the FAA decided that one of its DPEs had been ‘pencil whipping’ flight tests. They issued an emergency revocation of every single pilot certificate that DPE had ever issued, 10 years worth. Everyone had to have a re-test.
So I am not a lawyer. But I read and understand English, and I cannot fathom how anyone can say, with a straight face, that aircraft coming out of ‘two weeks to taxi’ or similar meet the EAB regulations.

While I agree with your logic and do agree that the FAA will likely unwind this loophole some day. It is HIGHLY unlikely that it will be retroactive. The FAA can't Unapprove something that they have already approved, unless they can prove that the applicant lied or deceived them. The FAA knew about the accelerated program style at time of approval and chose to approve the cert. No real way to undo that legally. As long as you don't lie or withhold required information, the FAA has an obligation to do it's diligence at the time of application. The fact that their inspector didn't follow the spirit of the regulation, isn't a cause for revocation.

If you look at US Govt laws related to products, they almost universally grandfather anything done prior to the law change, with some excpetions to safety or environmental applications. Heck, they don't even require you to remove R12. Just prevent you from replacing it and even that has some exceptions.

Larry
 
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While I agree with your logic and do agree that the FAA will likely unwind this loophole some day. It is HIGHLY unlikely that it will be retroactive. The FAA can't Unapprove something that they have already approved, unless they can prove that the applicant lied or deceived them. The FAA knew about the accelerated program style at time of approval and chose to approve the cert. No real way to undo that legally. As long as you don't lie or withhold required information, the FAA has an obligation to do it's diligence at the time of application. The fact that their inspector didn't follow the spirit of the regulation, isn't a cause for revocation.

If you look at US Govt laws related to products, they almost universally grandfather anything done prior to the law change, with some excpetions to safety or environmental applications.

Larry

This.......
 
Answers to everyone's question of How

Ok, so I have all the information from my visit yesterday. First, I will say I was pretty impressed with the shop overall. They are in a decent size hangar with all kinds of aircraft being worked on. Their main business is Avionics and Interior upgrades, but he has been a Builder Assist for RV-10 for over 15 years. They claim to be the largest Dynon retailer. He has completed close to 30 complete builds, not counting taking over uncompleted projects from builders who have given up and sold off. His father was a missionary who made many trips to help out the Ecuadorian tribes, and in the 1950's ended up being speared to death by them. Jesse Saint, the son took over his father mission, ended up being adopted by the same tribe who killed his father. You can read about it here.

https://www.ocala.com/article/LK/20070423/News/604229418/OS

They created a Non-Profit to help create job for the community, and the RV-10 build has become one of them. So there is the back story. They order regular kits from Vans, not the QB. It gets sent down to their shop in Ecuador. Everything from firewall back is done there, including paint. The buyer is required to go there for 2 full weeks, and works every day from 8-5. The make sure you are part of the build on each section. Saint's manager is from there, and he was the one I met with. He has an apartment attached to his family's house in which you will stay there, and his family will cook all your meals. All you are required is to get your plane ticket there, than they take care of the rest. When all the sections are completed, they pack it up in a container and ship it back to Dunnellon, FL. There they will attached the wings, Tail, engine, avionics, and propeller. You will be required to spend another 2 full weeks in Dunnellon to assist with that part. They will then provide all the required paperwork and help with getting the airworthy certificate. From start to finish it will take about a year. If I gave them a deposit today, they are a year out from starting, as they can only do 2-3 per year. So as of now, it would be 2 years before I could take delivery. You pay for it in stages. AOPA will finance the project once completed for 20 years at 3.75% if you want to get your cash back. They did have 2 RV-10s in the shop getting finalized. I will say that wow, they looked gorgeous. I am not the person to give you a quality build analysis, but I can say the customization was incredible. Leather lining the entire interior. One of my businesses is a body shop, so I can analyze paint. Their work was top notch. The paint was all laid down even, zero runs, no orange peel effect, perfect lines, and took me forever just to find one fish eye. If that gives you any clue to the rest, than it should be good. I did inspect the inside of the wings which were not attached, and all the bolts looked torqued properly with the marker lines matched up. They will also put you in touch with completed project owners so they can give you a first hand experience. They have had people back out of projects before, so I put my name on the list in case someone backs out. In the meantime, I think I will stick to my original plan and buy a 182, and I just may end up doing the project. With a 2 year wait, my hours should accumulate enough by then to feel safe in the 10.
 
good info

Thanks for the info...

One note, though. Applying torque seal only tells you one thing...that it was applied.

I have experienced fasteners that were only finger tight yet torque seal applied. Once someone sees the unbroken torque seal, they do not give that fastener a second glance, even though it MAY NOT be properly torqued...
 
I don’t think the quality of Jesse’s product was ever in question. I think the real question was if the cost premium to trade money for time is worth it. Clearly for some it is, but that leads into the purely academic debate of whether this meets the purpose and intent of E-AB certification for the builder vs a paid loophole in the process. For the time being it doesn’t matter one way or the other.

Did you ever call about insurance? As many of us have stated, that’s the real 800lbs gorilla in the room and if you finance the bank will force you to carry it.
 
Thanks for the info...

One note, though. Applying torque seal only tells you one thing...that it was applied.

I have experienced fasteners that were only finger tight yet torque seal applied. Once someone sees the unbroken torque seal, they do not give that fastener a second glance, even though it MAY NOT be properly torqued...

Yes sir, but like I said, I am not the person to give you a quality build analysis. From my eye, it looked put together well. They would put you in contact with previous owners to get their opinions on that. I would for sure make those contacts before proceeding. I will say his place was busy, planed coming an going, people everywhere. For sure the busiest place in the airport. They seem to be the place people go for upgrades.
 
I don’t think the quality of Jesse’s product was ever in question. I think the real question was if the cost premium to trade money for time is worth it. Clearly for some it is, but that leads into the purely academic debate of whether this meets the purpose and intent of E-AB certification for the builder vs a paid loophole in the process. For the time being it doesn’t matter one way or the other.

Did you ever call about insurance? As many of us have stated, that’s the real 800lbs gorilla in the room and if you finance the bank will force you to carry it.

Have not called about insurance yet. Based on all the comments, I plan on to humor everyone lol. However, I would more than likely have the 250 hours before the plane was completed 2 years down the road. They also do the required transition training once plane is airworthy.
 
Thanks

No need for contact info. I have dealt with Jesse during my build.

Just completed Phase 1 on my -10 so do not need his services...

HOWEVER

I think he sells a set of wing/fuselage fairings that look pretty cool! Might just have to look at those...
 
Have not called about insurance yet. Based on all the comments, I plan on to humor everyone lol. However, I would more than likely have the 250 hours before the plane was completed 2 years down the road. They also do the required transition training once plane is airworthy.

You might want to call anyway for planning purposes to verify how many hours is the break point for a discount (it might be more than 250), what’s the impact of an IFR rating, and how many hours of transition they want. I’d also ask how they bill the annual premium— mine is billed as a lump sum with no monthly payment option. That can be an awfully large pill to swallow if you’re caught unawares.
 
Have not called about insurance yet. Based on all the comments, I plan on to humor everyone lol. However, I would more than likely have the 250 hours before the plane was completed 2 years down the road. They also do the required transition training once plane is airworthy.
The system you describe at Saint Aviation is very interesting and kind of cool. If one has the money, it sounds like a good way to get into an RV-10. Whether or not it's a "good deal" is completely subjective and varies widely from person to person.

Insurance is a moving target. The info and premium info you get today may have zero applicability in 2-3 years, but the general concepts regarding transition, ratings, and experience may be useful information for planning purposes. Leah Ringeisen at Gallagher posts here. A conversation with her might be very helpful.
 
This is a remarkable endeavor. My wife is from a missionary family and my brother in law flew for MAF for years, so I'm familiar with Nate Saint's story. I've seen his son Steve, who I believe is Jesse's father, speak about it, as well as the families subsequent integration into that same tribe, including spending summers with them as a child. Their family story speaks to a level of personal forgiveness that frankly, I don't think that I would be capable of without divine intervention.

Sounds like he's created something really cool that is benefiting a lot of people.
 
This is a remarkable endeavor. My wife is from a missionary family and my brother in law flew for MAF for years, so I'm familiar with Nate Saint's story. I've seen his son Steve, who I believe is Jesse's father, speak about it, as well as the families subsequent integration into that same tribe, including spending summers with them as a child. Their family story speaks to a level of personal forgiveness that frankly, I don't think that I would be capable of without divine intervention.

Sounds like he's created something really cool that is benefiting a lot of people.

I agree 100%. My Fiancé is Venezuelan and spending 2 weeks in the jungle sounds fascinating to us. We are Christian, so the purpose behind it is even better. What a story to tell down the road when people ask about the plane!
 
You might want to call anyway for planning purposes to verify how many hours is the break point for a discount (it might be more than 250), what’s the impact of an IFR rating, and how many hours of transition they want. I’d also ask how they bill the annual premium— mine is billed as a lump sum with no monthly payment option. That can be an awfully large pill to swallow if you’re caught unawares.

Spoke to Assured through AOPA. With 100 hours, and 3 hours with CFI in same plane I am looking at $5500 for the RV-10.
 
Spoke to Assured through AOPA. With 100 hours, and 3 hours with CFI in same plane I am looking at $5500 for the RV-10.

IMO that’s actually not bad at all, all things considered— very low transition requirement and very low premium for a 100hr Private Pilot with no instrument rating for an HP aircraft.
 
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