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In-Flight Prop Failure

T

timothywhigginbotham

Member
Hello everyone,

I would like to get the word out to everyone that I had an in-flight propeller blade failure on 9/18/10. It happened 1/2 mile south of a friend?s private strip so I was able to make a safe landing. No damage from the landing but quite a lot from the loss of the prop blades.

This was my 2nd flight with my DAR sign-off that morning. RV-4, 0320 D2J 160HP with a props Inc., 68" ground adjustable wooden propeller.

Conditions: 1.9 hours service life at time of failure, 1400MSL, 2300 RPM. It happened with no warning. I had just reduced power to slowly start CYL head cool down and I heard a loud snap, followed by heavy vibration for a mille-second and then bang!, the prop disappeared.

Damage: Propeller blades no longer exist but all hardware remains. Most of the spinner is even intact with damage to the blade root area. The cowling has multiple spots where the gel-coat cracked and a crack by one exhaust stack. The exhaust system is destroyed and the engine mounts have funny brown powder on them (I suspect it smoked the rubber). Most engine shops recommend that I tear the engine down for inspection. I majored it myself and am capable of doing the work but what a bummer!

I have a new 4-pipe system ordered from Larry and a new fixed pitch prop ordered from Craig Catto. I will repair the cowling.

I know I am very lucky for several reasons but after assessing the damage and work that it will take to get it airworthy again, it's hard to feel lucky.

I have reported this to the FAA and NTSB as required. They were pleasant to deal with. I am on hold with my insurance agent now to see if they will cover this incident.

If you know anyone that has a Props Inc. ground adjustable propeller, please pass this information along.

I would like to hear from anyone regarding advice about the engine. I am leaning toward a complete teardown to send the crank out for inspection (again).

Tim,
 
I do not have any advice on the engine rebuild but I want to say I am glad to hear you are OK.
 
Wow!

So sorry to hear this. Just really glad that you're ok. I'd be very tempted to run the whole scenario by Lycoming before I'd start any disassembly, though.

Probably an IA or two will have better knowledge as well.,

Best,
 
Tim,
My opinion is that you should do a complete engine tear-down looking particularly at the internal front of the crankcase and crankshaft, including the bolt and pin attaching the gear at the aft end. This kind of "shock" can easily damage these components.
 
Glad you are okay.

Good job staying focused and calm enough to land the plane with no prop! Well Done!

Have you talked to the prop company? Any ideas as to what happened or why?

Wow.
 
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Catto Propellers

Hi Tim
First of all it great to be writing this to you! It could have been a much worst.
You had to of done a good job of putting your wounded bird down after your prop departed Great Job!!
I have had a Catto prop for three years now and I couldn?t be happier with the performance and customer service. I think it?s a good choice for the RV-4
 
Since you asked........

timothywhigginbotham said:
I would like to hear from anyone regarding advice about the engine. I am leaning toward a complete teardown to send the crank out for inspection (again).

Tim,
Click to expand...

Here is my take on this, tear it down, and inspect everything with magnaflux and zyglow as needed.

You mentioned a short period of heavy vibration-----this is where the damage, if any will probably have occurred.

The effect of high frequency low amplitude impact is pretty impressive ....... think of an air chisel, or an impact wrench, or what an A10 does to a tank. One hit from any of the above is pretty much of a non event, but a lot of them in quick succession ...............

As Stein says, my $0.02
 
This is the second or third reference I've seen in the last year to ground-adjustable prop failures.
 
Boy, I am glad you are OK. A tremendous job under that condition to stay composed and do a safe landing.

Best wishes and sorry to hear about your bird.
 
Tim,

What a time to have a prop fail, on your second flight.

Congrats on the successful landing.

Sounds like an engine tear down is the best way to go but a call a Lycoming service rep will confirm that's the way to go.
 
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I have spoken to Jeff @ Props Inc and he has stated he will build no more of these props for now. It appears the RV-8 in OK was indeed another of these props. As soon as I find his phone number, I plan to give him a call.

Funny thing though, my prop was shipped to ?HAGER CLINTON RAY? RV-8, registration: N127TT by mistake. He was kind enough to forward it to me. I called him and thanked him and offered to pay his shipping but he said Props Inc. had agreed to cover it.

As far as remaining calm goes, I didn?t have time to be afraid. I was very fortunate to be at the location where I made my 1st and 2nd landing a few hours earlier. It was my 1st dead stick landing after 15 years as a private pilot.

As far as the Catto goes, my RV-4 is a very light, basic day time VFR aircraft. This prop will help me keep it that way.

Tim,
 
timothywhigginbotham said:
As far as remaining calm goes, I didn?t have time to be afraid. I was very fortunate to be at the location where I made my 1st and 2nd landing a few hours earlier. It was my 1st dead stick landing after 15 years as a private pilot.

Tim,
Click to expand...

Welcome to the "Dead Stick Landing Club". Seriously, there should be a hat or patch or something! :confused:

Craig Catto is the best. Call him and he will set you up with a nice solid one piece prop. ;)
 
Pierre,

Yes, I agree. I forgot to say that I asked him to notify everyone. He did agree to do so, but said there is a 3-blade on an RV hey may have lost contact with.

Tim,
 
An update:

I spoke to Lycoming and a couple of engine shops today. They all agree with you that the engine must be pulled and inspected. I will pull it in the morning and plan to send it to Custom Airmotives.

I am currently working with an adjuster regarding this incident. I appear everything except the prop will be covered. Looks as if I am out just time and work. Others have not been nearly as fortunate.

I spoke to Clint Hagar from OK today. We both agree that the type of failure was the same. Both props lost a blade at the blade root, nothing left but the hardware. It appears to be common problem.

I spoke to Jeff at Props Inc. again today and reminded him to notify everyone flying this type of prop.

I really appreciate everyone?s encouragement and will let you know when I am back in the air.

Tim,
 
Tim, any chance of a few photos so we can see blade root and hub design details?
 
Dan,

I would be happy to post photos. When I get a chance to figure out how, I will get some posted (this weekend). You probably noticed I have little experience with the forum.

Tim,
 
Well, if we can help, let us know because I'd like to see the pics too.

These two sites are popular with pic tranfers which you'll need a site like this to get the pics from your computer to here. It's free. Just follow their instructions.

http://tinypic.com/ http://imageshack.us/

Or if you like, PM me, and I?ll get you my e-mail, and if you can attach the pics to that, I?ll get them here.
 
Help with pictures is very appreciated

John,

I appreciate the offer to help with the pictures and will indeed take you up on it. I will send you a PM.

I have been very busy working with my insurance to get all required documentation in place. I have also started ordering parts to put my little sweetheart back together.

The repair bill stands at $15,000 if they find nothing wrong with my engine. It is amazing how much damage can be done in such a short amount of time.

Thanks,

Tim
 
RV-4 2003 in flight prop failure

Props have been lost in flight before. Here are photos that I was sent of an unknown RV-4. Photos are dated January 2003.

P1000414.JPG


P1000416.JPG


P1000418.JPG


P1000419.JPG


P1000420.JPG


P1000421.JPG


As you can tell from the photos, the pilot landed safely. Could have been much worse had the pilot not been near an airport.
 
Wow, bet there are some streaks in that seat cushion....wow! :eek: :eek: :eek:

And that is one of them fancy counterweighted props....wow!
 
Tim,

It is good to hear you made it down safely!

After removing the engine, I highly recommend you pull the engine mount and give it a complete inspection. Any cracked paint is a sure sign of a cracked tube.
 
That's a wake up!

Those pictures make me realize I am very lucky. My damage was small by comparison, just a lot of little stuff. The wood prop is probably why.

I haven?t found any firewall damage. One SS cap plug in an unused hole popped out.

I haven?t decided whether I will pull the engine mount yet. I will inspect with a magnifying glass in the morning and decide then. It didn?t break or bend any of the engine mounts but I did find one bolt that seems to be bent (inner spacer between the biscuits is stuck on the bolt).

I plan to crate and ship my engine out in the morning.

Tim,
 
DanH said:
That is a wood prop in the above photos. See the lag screw anchors? Standard blade retention technology from ANC-19, the old Aircraft Propeller Handbook.
Click to expand...

Wow, huge difference in wood prop failures, that one previously shown looks like a small bomb went off, and Timothy is right with his, he came out pretty lucky. I suppose his prop was mostly thrown clean from the plane. Here’s one of the pics that Timothy sent. Most of the others were small dings and small chips of paint. It looks like his prop was mostly thrown clean from the plane.

One thing that seems encouraging to me is that the engine mounts are holding up, and no one is getting their engine ripped from their plane.

Tim, that looked like a nice 4, and should be one again after you go through the repairs. Thanks for the pics.

ei4n5j.jpg
 
1st Flight

DSC_0034-1.jpg
[/IMG]

My 1st flight, 3rd landing. Little did I know the next one would be without my propeller...

And also my 1st picture successfully posted!

Tim
 
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Get the word out

Anyone know of a ground adjustable Props Inc. propeller flying or about to fly? If so, they should be notified ASAP. Feel free to forward my e-mail. If they are interested, I would be glad to discuss my experience and also what happened to the RV-8.

Our failures were virtually identical, mine @ 2.1 hours and the 8?s @ 5.8 hours. Neither of us had any warning.

This type of propeller should not be flown. :mad:
 
Note the multiple adhesive failures, both wood-to-wood in the lamination of the blade blank and in the butt-to-aluminum cup bond.

The overall design of the hub is.....interesting.
 
Things that make you go "hmmmm"..... Honestly, after looking at that hub (if you can you call it that) I can't find the right words to express my utter disbelief, confusion and amazement. There are so many things about it that are just NOT RIGHT. I'm trying to be as politically correct as I can be, but I can't find the right words to explain my "jaw on the floor" response to that design.:confused: Is my brain deceiving me or is there only ONE singular bolt through each clamp/blade that actually makes it's way to the crankshaft????

I suppose nobody wants to slam a supplier, but jeez it's hard to hold back on this one...the only words I know to use to explain that thing would be censored out! All I can say it that thing is truly a piece of work.

GREAT job getting the plane on the ground and thanks so much for posting this - you may very well end up saving a life. No flame intended, but hopefully your next choice will be a bit more standard in design, testing and also be well proven.

My 2 cents and only an opinion as usual...

Cheers,
Stein
 
Another photo please?

Hi

I wonder if you have and can post another photo of the front face of the spinner front plate so I could see the bolt arrangement.

From what I can make out the two prop hubs are not conected to each other so the drive pins would drive each hub individually, and the only other thing locking them to the prop extension would be two bolts each side?

Would this not allow some some rotation of the prop blades and resonance to set in?

I am just asking questions here to try and work out how this set up is supposed to transmit the drive from the engine to the prop as I don't understand it from the photos, I am not trying to suggest anything by asking these questions as I may be interpretting what I see incorrectly. Four of the (prop) bolts seem to do nothing more than hold the spinner plate on?

Confused from the UK........ now I understand why each prop type has to be approved for use over here!

I am so happy you got down safely!!!
 
SteinAir said:
Things that make you go "hmmmm"..... Honestly, after looking at that hub (if you can you call it that) I can't find the right words to express my utter disbelief, confusion and amazement. There are so many things about it that are just NOT RIGHT. I'm trying to be as politically correct as I can be, but I can't find the right words to explain my "jaw on the floor" response to that design.:confused: Is my brain deceiving me or is there only ONE singular bolt through each clamp/blade that actually makes it's way to the crankshaft????

I suppose nobody wants to slam a supplier, but jeez it's hard to hold back on this one...the only words I know to use to explain that thing would be censored out! All I can say it that thing is truly a piece of work.

GREAT job getting the plane on the ground and thanks so much for posting this - you may very well end up saving a life. No flame intended, but hopefully your next choice will be a bit more standard in design, testing and also be well proven.

My 2 cents and only an opinion as usual...

Cheers,
Stein
Click to expand...

Yes only one bolt... Two blade Catto ordered.
 
WAM120RV said:
Hi

I wonder if you have and can post another photo of the front face of the spinner front plate so I could see the bolt arrangement.

From what I can make out the two prop hubs are not conected to each other so the drive pins would drive each hub individually, and the only other thing locking them to the prop extension would be two bolts each side?

Would this not allow some some rotation of the prop blades and resonance to set in?

I am just asking questions here to try and work out how this set up is supposed to transmit the drive from the engine to the prop as I don't understand it from the photos, I am not trying to suggest anything by asking these questions as I may be interpretting what I see incorrectly. Four of the (prop) bolts seem to do nothing more than hold the spinner plate on?

Confused from the UK........ now I understand why each prop type has to be approved for use over here!

I am so happy you got down safely!!!
Click to expand...

I will take a few pictures of each of the hubs, bolt arrangement, and all.
 
DanH said:
That is a wood prop in the above photos. See the lag screw anchors? Standard blade retention technology from ANC-19, the old Aircraft Propeller Handbook.
Click to expand...

I see that it is now that you mention it. This was my 1st experience with a wood prop. I wish I had read ?ANC-19, the old Aircraft Propeller Handbook?.

I suspect the reason my damage was far less is due to the fact that the second blade departed in about the amount of time it takes the think ?oh my, I lost my prop?. No kidding though, I couldn?t even snap my fingers in between the time it took for the second blade to leave.

One more thing, I had a vague sense that it just disintegrated before my eyes. Debris everywhere for a blink.
 
EXPERIMENTAL

Glad you didn't get hurt.
Just a reminder... all of this non certified, non pma'd, stuff we stick in or on our experimental airplanes is just that.. experimental. Its up to you to make sure it is airworthy, correctly designed, manufactured, installed, etc. Sometimes I think we forget, with all of the great stuff people are making for our HOMEBUILTS nowadays, that just because someone is making it and selling it doesn't mean they are an expert or that is safe to fly.

Chris M
 
Christopher Murphy said:
Glad you didn't get hurt.
Just a reminder... all of this non certified, non pma'd, stuff we stick in or on our experimental airplanes is just that.. experimental. Its up to you to make sure it is airworthy, correctly designed, manufactured, installed, etc. Sometimes I think we forget, with all of the great stuff people are making for our HOMEBUILTS nowadays, that just because someone is making it and selling it doesn't mean they are an expert or that is safe to fly.

Chris M
Click to expand...

Chris,

Very well put. I actually started working on the post below and was waiting until I had more pictures. It gives a little insight on how I got to this point.

I can tell you all that I agree with your assessment of this design. I was not impressed with the design when I first unpacked it. I really didn?t like it when I started assembling it. The pitch was touchy to get right and it was easy to wind up with a little leading blade if not careful. In spite of this, I had it set up perfectly (angle to within <1/10 degree, no leading blade, perfect tracking and all. I got so caught up in dialing it in, that I ignored my gut feel. That all just goes to show, you can?t make chicken salad from chicken soup.

For my purposes at the time, I thought I needed a ground adjustable prop. At the time I ordered it, there were very few choices in a light weight ground adjustable prop. I now have a two blade fixed pitch prop on the way from Craig Catto.

One more thing; this prop was a bad design, no question about it. With that said, I take responsibility for the decision to purchase (didn?t ask enough questions about it or get pictures of hub details), install, and test fly it. As I mentioned before, my gut feel was this isn?t a great design. I should have rejected it then and there. They don?t make us put a big EXPERIMENTAL sticker on it for no reason. It just goes to show, I the builder have ultimate responsibility to ensure I?m not doing something unsafe. I can tell you from experience, hind sight is 20-20.

My problem with the manufacturer in all of this is:

1) Was not properly tested. I think he has had success with this prop design in lower HP applications but it?s clear (now) that it was not properly tested.
2) He did not notify me of the blade failure on the RV-8. I may have ignored my gut about the setup, but I know that given this information, I would not have even started my engine with that prop installed.

I?ve learned a great deal from reading this forum. I am sure that I avoided a few costly, and multiple minor mistakes because others cared enough to inform everyone.
 
2) He did not notify me of the blade failure on the RV-8. I may have ignored my gut about the setup, but I know that given this information, I would not have even started my engine with that prop installed.
Click to expand...
Personally I don't think you have any reasonable expectation that a manufacturer should tell you about all the things that have gone wrong with their product in the past before you buy it. Lots of propellors have come apart in flight, from Sensenich's to McCauley's to Hamilton Standards, and the manufacturers don't say "hey, wait a minute, before you buy did you know that these props can break from time to time?"

Not defending the manufacturer here, I agree that the setup there doesn't really look sturdy enough. But if you applied that criterion to all the things you put in your airplane, you might spend a lot more time on the ground fretting than in the air flying. As you said, it's up to *you* to decide whether the component is adequate for use.
 
timothywhigginbotham said:
...1) Was not properly tested...
Click to expand...
There is another GAP that recently came to the market with limited testing, so it is 100% buyer beware! By limited testing, from what I understand in talking with them, they had it flying on one plane at the time I placed my order. When the prop arrived, I returned it because I felt it wasn't sorted out just yet.

The problems Sensensich has had developing their GAP should be some indication of the challenges with bringing this technology to market. If a company with the history of prop development like Sensensich is having problems, just think what some guy working out of his shop is dealing with.
 
RV6_flyer said:
...
P1000421.JPG

...
Click to expand...
BTW, that is not a GAP but an Aeromatic Prop. Aeromatic propellers are old designs, as in pre-WWII. They self-adjust based on air loads and RPM.

I have only flown behind one and that was in a friends F24W, it was seamless in its operation but then that old Fairchild could only go around 115 MPH. (Yes, those old planes used MPH, not knots!)

As for how much damage can happen when you lose a prop blade, this picture is another friend's UPF-7 after 17" of one prop tip elected not to complete the flight with the rest of the WACO.
waco%20upf7.jpg
 
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Back in the air!

Well after two months I have my RV-4 air-worthy again. An update on a few details?

The Engine ? Crankshaft and case were OK but all intake valves, spring seats and keepers had to be replaced due to over speeding. Work done by Custom Airmotive in Tulsa OK. Two hours on the test stand and 1.5 in service now. Runs great!

Engine mount ? OK, checked with dye penetrate kit.

Props Inc ? Jeff refunded the purchase price as promised. I have no way of knowing if he will no longer build this prop for Lycoming engines. I have no way of knowing if he will notify all others that own one of these props. I have been told that he was instructed by the FAA to do just that. I have no way of knowing if that?s true but I sure hope so. As I understand it, three of these props have failed.

Craig Catto?s new prop ? Simply awesome! Looks and performance. He did a great job on the pre-cut spinner kit also.

Larry Vetterman?s new 4-pipe exhaust system ? replaced a Vetterman crossover, the fit was great and the sound is unbeatable.

DSC_0022.jpg


DSC_0119.jpg


My initial RV grin was short lived but now it?s back!
 
Congratulations...

...are definitely in order.

Come see me sometime at 2J3 and I'll let you fly left seat in my -10.

Best,
 
Well done!

Tim,
First nice job on the FO (flame-out) well done!
Second, congrats on the extremely light weight of your 4, under 900 lbs! Wow!
Third, Good job buying Craig Catto's 2 blade. (I tested his first one on my 4 back in 99'), looks like it has come a long way, awesome!

For other RV4 builders who haven't had prop experience (I tried 5 on my RV4) There are a few tried and true experimental FP props I have experience with, tested and would buy again.

Craig Catto [email protected]
Gary Hertzler [email protected]
MT http://www.mt-propellerusa.com/

You chose wisely!

Smokey
HR2
RVX

PS: I have some original RV4 wheel-pants I will send you for a very reasonable price!
 
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