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RV Article in IAC Mag

sandifer

Well Known Member
This month's Sport Aerobatics features an excellent no-nonsense article by VAFer Patric "Balls" Coggin where he nails some of the issues surrounding the cautious apprehension many RV pilots carry on the subject of getting involved with competition acro. One correction - RVs have the same G rating as most Pitts' (+6/-3). Hopefully this piece will be a positive nudge for some folks.

And before anyone thinks that one must have been (or be) a fighter pilot to be adept at this kind of flying, I expect Patric "Balls" and Ron "Smokey" (two of our main RV pilot advocates) would be the first to admit that there is little relation between their fighter background and the stick and rudder techniques needed to present a clean sequence to the judges.

Nice job Patric!

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Thanks for the kinds words

Appreciate the complement - I've received a few over the last few days, but I must be at the very end of the distro list as I just got my copy last night.

I make it a point to not make hollow offers - if anyone does have any questions on getting involved, I'm just an e-mail away.

[email protected]
 
It's something to think about. My acro instructor has been trying to get me into competition acro for literally years. I found the cost of the practice in a rented Super Decathlon to be prohibitive..I had better uses for the cash.

Last time he tried was a few months ago and I told him I was buying a -8. He said use that!

My chute arrives this week................
 
Way to go!

Thank you DR for posting Ball's article on the front page of VAF. And thanks to Eric Sandifer for posting it to VAF in the first place. (Why didn't I think of that?) There have been several articles about RV aerobatics in the IAC magazine over the past few years and Patric "Balls" Cogin's is one of the best. Unfortunately, there are very few RV pilots who belong to the IAC so fine articles like this get read by only a very few RV pilots. I hope to change that. Van has agreed to write an article on RV aerobatics for publication in the EAA magazine, Sport Aviation. Not sure when that will be published but it will be a welcome addition to the growing movement of RV aerobatic competition.

Right now there are only five RV pilots actively competing in IAC events in this country. In the past two months I have recruited two more that are preparing to compete and when I hear of others like Gregg and Scott who are buying parachutes and practicing their craft I am optimistic that this movement is catching on.

I hope more of you will come join the fun.
 
Right now there are only five RV pilots actively competing in IAC events in this country.

I think there's at least one more than that. The chapter 78 president is two hangars down from me and got me plugged into IAC earlier this year.

And I'd suggest there isn't really anything a -4 or -8 can do that a -6A can't :)

Still, of the dozen or so RVs based at KSGS, there's maybe only one other that has any interest in IAC for a variety of reasons. It would seem there really used to be some bad vibes between the IAC community and the RV community. I'm glad that's changing.

It's also rather difficult to practice for an event when there's few other folks around. After all, the "egg" I fly when chasing another aircraft around the vertical turn circle wouldn't pass for a loop, and being able to stay in the box is difficult without ground observers. Technology can help with the latter item, but not sure how to address the former without someone on the ground providing feedback.
 
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I think there's at least one more than that. The IAC Chapter 78 president is two hangars down from me and got me plugged into IAC earlier this year.

And I'd suggest there isn't really anything a -4 or -8 can do that a -6A can't :)

Still, of the dozen or so RVs based at KSGS, there's maybe only one other that has any interest in IAC for a variety of reasons. It would seem there really used to be some bad vibes between the IAC community and the RV community. I'm glad that's changing.

Who is the 6th? I'd like to know him. FWIW, the two new recruits that I mentioned are both RV-6 pilots!
 
I enjoy aerobatics very much, but don't do figures a lot because it so often results in back pain lasting several days.

RV seating is upright, and positions long legs with the knees high, about the worst possible arrangement for G's. Given that a high percentage of adult males report spinal issues (and yes, the typical age of an RV owner), I suspect it may be one reason for low IAC participation.

Sometimes I dream about designing an airplane from scratch, and every mental sketch includes a reclining seat position to reduce loads on the lower back.

Is it in fact a common problem?
 
It would seem there really used to be some bad vibes between the IAC community and the RV community. I'm glad that's changing.

The only possible rumblings I've ever heard of took place about 30 years ago when some RV-3 wing failures were showing up, and it could very well have been that many in the acro community did not perceive the RV as a worthy design for the mission. So I wouldn't say things are changing, I'd say the issue is long dead and buried.

It's also rather difficult to practice for an event when there's few other folks around. After all, the "egg" I fly when chasing another aircraft around the vertical turn circle wouldn't pass for a loop, and being able to stay in the box is difficult without ground observers. Technology can help with the latter item, but not sure how to address the former without someone on the ground providing feedback.

It is true that you (and all pilots) stand little chance of scoring well without good help from the ground. True of all the figures, not just loops. Contact IAC 78, the chapter in your part of the country. Many of us do not have experienced IACers within easy reach for critiquing. You might have to make a short XC flight. You have an RV right? :)

http://www.iac78.org
 
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Contact IAC 78, the chapter in your part of the country. Many of us do not have experienced IACers within easy reach for critiquing. You might have to make a short XC flight. You have an RV right? :)

http://www.iac78.org

Justin Hickson (chapter 78's president and super cool guy) is two hangars down and I've been to a couple of contests to see how they work - one just to watch, another to act as a judge's recorder.

Thanks!
Brad
 
and being able to stay in the box is difficult without ground observers. Technology can help with the latter item, but not sure how to address the former without someone on the ground providing feedback.

BTW, staying in the box is purely a visual situational awareness exercise, so while it might be interesting to later analyze the captured parameters of your flight, I'd suggest getting accustomed to using points on the ground to monitor box position as you're flying. The only time any of us actually have folks on the ground providing (not in real time) feedback on boundary infringements is at a contest. During practice it's all up to the pilot.

Flying within the 1000' bars on a 5000' runway works well for airports where acro can be flown legally. Otherwise, you'd need to pick some references on the ground in a practice area, as measured on google maps or something.

And in the Primary category, there are no boundary penalties, just presentation scores.
 
Chilly reception...

Appreciate the complement - I've received a few over the last few days, but I must be at the very end of the distro list as I just got my copy last night.

I make it a point to not make hollow offers - if anyone does have any questions on getting involved, I'm just an e-mail away.

[email protected]

Hi Balls,
First, thanks for a well written article! For us Jurassic (Pre-pre-drilled) RV builder/flyers who competed 20 years ago, it's refreshing that someone else is trying to encourage participation. What you will find realistically is about 1% of the people who read this site actually do more than an occasional aileron roll. That probably holds true (from my experience) of the entire RV owners group. I'm glad you and a few others are One percenters!

My IAC event first visit was just after returning from an Iraq deployment in the F16 and showing up with my RV4 almost 20 years ago. My reception was chilly at best. Later trips yielded similar receptions. My impression of the IAC then was a narrow-minded, opinionated "good old boy" organization with very subjective judging and matching attitudes. Recently one of my F16 bros reported a similar reception at a nearby event in his RV4.

If the IAC is indeed interested in attracting RV owners to compete then contacting them directly as you mentioned is a great first step. Unfortunately, the reality of the sample size (despite the number of RV's) capable of or even desiring to compete is small.
For a "hobby of the rich and famous," (or at least those with larger disposable income) sport-plane fuel, insurance costs, liability concerns and even experience levels of potential competitors is always a consideration.

Good luck...

V/R
Smokey
[email protected]
 
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My impression of the IAC then was a narrow-minded, opinionated "good old boy" organization with very subjective judging and matching attitudes. Recently one of my F16 bros reported a similar reception at a nearby event in his RV4.

That kind of attitude is one of my bigger concerns, actually. At the two contests I've been to (as a spectator or volunteer), most folks who saw my RV parked on the ramp and asked about it seemed pretty cool. There was one Pitts guy who was pretty snobbish and seemed to have a genuine dislike for RVs but I attributed that to the individual and not IAC in general. Besides, I've beat similar Pitts' in a 1v1 neutral setup so there's that :)

The judging does seem to be extremely subjective. At the contest in Spencer IA where I did recording both days, I saw that a number of flights had wildly different scores from the different judges. I also heard a from a couple folks at the last contest about the "halo" effect, where someone who normally does well is often given the benefit of the doubt thus a higher score than someone whom the judges don't know. That seems sketchy, but I didn't observe anything like that firsthand so not sure if it's common or not.
 
. ...What you will find realistically is about 1% of the people who read this site actually do more than an occasional aileron roll. That probably holds true (from my experience) of the entire RV owners group. I'm glad you and a few others are One percenters!...
My impression of the IAC then was a narrow-minded, opinionated "good old boy" organization with very subjective judging and matching attitudes. Recently one of my F16 bros reported a similar reception at a nearby event in his RV4.
...For a "hobby of the rich and famous," (or at least those with larger disposable income) sport-plane fuel, insurance costs, liability concerns and even experience levels of potential competitors is always a consideration.

Rob,

Agree that the vast majority of owners of aerobatic RVs never put the greasy side up and even fewer (5) actively participate in aerobatic competition. I have experienced an entirely different attitude from the IAC and other competitors. I have found the IAC staff, from President Mike Heuer on down to be most welcoming to newcomers to the sport, regardless of what equipment they fly. Other competitors and members of my local IAC chapter 19 have made me feel welcome and have gone out of their way to help me become a better competitor. I hope you will PM me and provide contact information for your F-16 bro who experienced a poor reception. I would like to get more details so I can perhaps help make his next visit to an IAC event more enjoyable.
As far as the costs associated with the sport; yes flying airplanes is costly and the added costs associated with aerobatic competition can only be justified if you derive sufficient benefits such as entertainment, satisfaction, thrill, camaraderie, etc. In that regard competition aerobatics is not unlike most any other form of leisure activity. It may not be for you, but for the few of us who participate it's a great bargain.
 
My impression of the IAC then was a narrow-minded, opinionated "good old boy" organization with very subjective judging and matching attitudes. Recently one of my F16 bros reported a similar reception at a nearby event in his RV4.

That kind of attitude is one of my bigger concerns, actually. At the two contests I've been to (as a spectator or volunteer), most folks who saw my RV parked on the ramp and asked about it seemed pretty cool. There was one Pitts guy who was pretty snobbish and seemed to have a genuine dislike for RVs but I attributed that to the individual and not IAC in general.

I would caution anyone against holding reservations such as this before gathering sufficient personal experience. There are a million ways to overthink and overanalyze the decision to jump in and whether you are ready to get involved. It really comes down to that - jumping in. It's a club you admit yourself into. Requires somewhat of a self-starter attitude and maybe a bit of confidence. For 99% percent of 1st time competitors who have them, the reservations evaporate that first time out.

Regarding the impression of IAC being a bunch of "narrow-minded, opinionated good old boys", you will find a small percentage of jerks no matter what type of activity you're into. That's life. It may not come as news to many here that RV pilots aren't exactly positively viewed by many in the rest of the GA community. Do I think RVers are any different overall? Nope.

The judging does seem to be extremely subjective. At the contest in Spencer IA where I did recording both days, I saw that a number of flights had wildly different scores from the different judges.

Anyone interested in this sport would greatly benefit from attending a judges school to understand the judging criteria. It can be quite complex, but it is NOT subjective at all. Judging can vary a bit because humans are involved, but in general, the judging process selects the overall standings quite fairly.

I have attended about 20 contests in the past 9 years up and down the east coast, and at no contest did I feel the overall standings were not correctly determined, even if there may have been certain single figure scores from individual judges that I disagreed with. In the end, the system works very well. In my experience, the pilot who wins is the pilot who either flies the best or makes the fewest technical mistakes. Become a judge. Gain experience. Educate others if you feel it necessary.

Nothing is hidden. Anyone can look up the scores IAC judges award here: http://iaccdb.org Same for world level competition: http://civa-results.com Yes, some variation exists anywhere you go, but overall your scores really do accurately reflect the level of effort, practice, and critiquing you have invested in your flying.

Regarding "snobbish" attitude toward RVs, I haven't seen that. What I have seen at contests is a very diverse field of aircraft types including Stearmans, Clipped Cubs, T-Crafts, Robins, Chipmunks, Jungmanns, CJ-6, T-28, Sonex, C-152 Aerobat, Citabrias, and even a P-51. Not exactly traditional competition acro planes. The RV is not special. It's just another capable aerobatic airplane.
 
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