Van's Air Force
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Ok, I need help getting out of this one...
- Thread starter danielhv
- Start date
Flyfalcons
Well Known Member
Are the parts insured for theft? 
TX7A
Well Known Member
One idea:
Convince him that he should buy a set of QB wings & "part-out" what he has to help offset the cost. Also, explain that trying to sell a plane with poor workmanship (especially wing/spar problems) will not bring much return on his investment. And, at least he would end up with safe wings.
Convince him that he should buy a set of QB wings & "part-out" what he has to help offset the cost. Also, explain that trying to sell a plane with poor workmanship (especially wing/spar problems) will not bring much return on his investment. And, at least he would end up with safe wings.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
There's a Citation V that I see Just Sitting Around
Wonder if the owner will let me put on 100 hours. No bigee. Reality is that you've enjoyed about $5,000-$6,000 benefit with the 150, and will realize an even greater benefit with the 172. Don't you think you owe him your best effort in return? Personally (especially for a friend), I'd want to give him wings that were even better than what I built for myself. On the other hand, if you're looking to see who gets the most benefit from the bargain, you're already way ahead. If you're looking to rationalize your way out of this, I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions. What does your character tell you to do?
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
Wonder if the owner will let me put on 100 hours. No bigee. Reality is that you've enjoyed about $5,000-$6,000 benefit with the 150, and will realize an even greater benefit with the 172. Don't you think you owe him your best effort in return? Personally (especially for a friend), I'd want to give him wings that were even better than what I built for myself. On the other hand, if you're looking to see who gets the most benefit from the bargain, you're already way ahead. If you're looking to rationalize your way out of this, I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions. What does your character tell you to do?
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
aarvig
Well Known Member
Nothing beats the truth...
Here's my outside perspective looking in...
1.) You're in too deep...sorry man! You committed to him and have been flying his planes. You need to honor your committment regardless.
2.) Because he "hired" you to complete the wings and because you agreed you need to honor that.
3.) Because your opinion of his wings is that they are not airworthy you need to tell him the truth about the situation. You guys are friends and you are the more experienced builder. Because of this you are responsible to tell him that he needs to replace the parts for safety's sake. You have to be straight up. You also have to tell him that he needs to replace them or you are not going to build the wings.
4.) If you want out, offer to reimburse him for your time in the planes.
Thats my "outside looking in perspective." I wish you luck on this. I have been in your shoes before.
Here's my outside perspective looking in...
1.) You're in too deep...sorry man! You committed to him and have been flying his planes. You need to honor your committment regardless.
2.) Because he "hired" you to complete the wings and because you agreed you need to honor that.
3.) Because your opinion of his wings is that they are not airworthy you need to tell him the truth about the situation. You guys are friends and you are the more experienced builder. Because of this you are responsible to tell him that he needs to replace the parts for safety's sake. You have to be straight up. You also have to tell him that he needs to replace them or you are not going to build the wings.
4.) If you want out, offer to reimburse him for your time in the planes.
Thats my "outside looking in perspective." I wish you luck on this. I have been in your shoes before.
scsmith
Well Known Member
Be gentle but honest
I think the idea of an EAA tech councelor visit is a really good one, so that he hears from someone else besides you. That does put a tech councelor in a tough spot going in, knowing that he is going to have to tactfully critique lots of bad work -- maybe they get enough experience at that that it is not a burden, I don't know. (My hunch is that most work they see is pretty good, just need minor tips?)
A good friendship should be durable enough to withstand an honest discussion about this. If you can, keep it focused on the objects and not the person. Personal criticism will not help, but fair, honest critique of the work should be respected. It might be hard if someone has a lot of pride in their work and hears that it is deficient. Anyone would react defensively, and you will have to find a way to side-step that. I don't know, but maybe it is not so hard to hear it when there is an apparent lack of pride in workmanship.
Find a way to mix some positive comments in - and/or have proposed courses of action to recover (like put a doubler on the back side of the spar web where the bad z-bracket holes are).
Anyway, I do think you owe it to him and any potential future passengers and potential future owners to find a way to tell him that there is enough poor work here that the safety of the end result is in question. There are lingering potential liability issues for him in selling something that is built in a way that counters the direct instructions from the kit supplier.
It is easy for people to dismiss some poor work by saying there is lots of extra margin in the structure to tolerate a few defects, and that is more or less true. But enough defects can add up to where the structure is compromised.
It sounds like he is fairly casual about loaning his airplanes around, but if it comes to it, you could offer some other in-kind effort or reimbursement if needed to separate the airplane usage discussion from the construction issues. (hangar storage of the parts probably counts for a fair bit).
Number one suggestion: find a way to deal with it so it doesn't eat you up inside and cost you sleep. Its already costing you build time and attention on your own project, and that is already a high price. Resolve it, don't let it fester.
Hope there is some nugget of helpful ideas here for you,
Best,
I think the idea of an EAA tech councelor visit is a really good one, so that he hears from someone else besides you. That does put a tech councelor in a tough spot going in, knowing that he is going to have to tactfully critique lots of bad work -- maybe they get enough experience at that that it is not a burden, I don't know. (My hunch is that most work they see is pretty good, just need minor tips?)
A good friendship should be durable enough to withstand an honest discussion about this. If you can, keep it focused on the objects and not the person. Personal criticism will not help, but fair, honest critique of the work should be respected. It might be hard if someone has a lot of pride in their work and hears that it is deficient. Anyone would react defensively, and you will have to find a way to side-step that. I don't know, but maybe it is not so hard to hear it when there is an apparent lack of pride in workmanship.
Find a way to mix some positive comments in - and/or have proposed courses of action to recover (like put a doubler on the back side of the spar web where the bad z-bracket holes are).
Anyway, I do think you owe it to him and any potential future passengers and potential future owners to find a way to tell him that there is enough poor work here that the safety of the end result is in question. There are lingering potential liability issues for him in selling something that is built in a way that counters the direct instructions from the kit supplier.
It is easy for people to dismiss some poor work by saying there is lots of extra margin in the structure to tolerate a few defects, and that is more or less true. But enough defects can add up to where the structure is compromised.
It sounds like he is fairly casual about loaning his airplanes around, but if it comes to it, you could offer some other in-kind effort or reimbursement if needed to separate the airplane usage discussion from the construction issues. (hangar storage of the parts probably counts for a fair bit).
Number one suggestion: find a way to deal with it so it doesn't eat you up inside and cost you sleep. Its already costing you build time and attention on your own project, and that is already a high price. Resolve it, don't let it fester.
Hope there is some nugget of helpful ideas here for you,
Best,
Walt
Well Known Member
How about a chain saw
Actually in the "real" non experimental world, an unairworthy part must be scrapped and made "unusable" if it is unairworthy. This would prevent this aircraft from falling into some poor unsuspecting buyer hands down the road. Sounds harsh but if ain't no good it either needs to be done right or scrapped. You have a moral obligation here to make sure all this bad work in not covered up!
From FAA Order 8100.11
Disposition of Scrap or Salvageable
Aircraft Parts and Materials
3. BACKGROUND. It is common practice for possessors of aircraft parts to dispose of scrap parts and materials by selling, discarding. or transferring such items. Improper control of these items could allow them back into the active parts inventories of the aviation community. Misrepresenting the status of aviation parts and materials and the practice of making such items appear senriceable could result in their use on certificated aircraft. Manufacturers could end up repurchasing their own parts and materials that thev have deemed scrap if the parts and materials are not destroyed bevond use as recommended b\- paragraph 7 of this order. Lacking the proper controls, parts can be copied or repaired and reintroduced into the market and represented as approved parts. This practice can have serious implications and incur liabilities on the production approval holder (PAH), certificate holder, or the repair facility. Advisory Circular (AC) 2 l-38, Disposition of Unsalvageable Aircraft Parts and Materials, also provides information and guidance to the public and suggests methods to prevent unsalvageable aircraft parts and materials from being sold and reinstalled on certificated aircraft as serviceable parts and materials.
Actually in the "real" non experimental world, an unairworthy part must be scrapped and made "unusable" if it is unairworthy. This would prevent this aircraft from falling into some poor unsuspecting buyer hands down the road. Sounds harsh but if ain't no good it either needs to be done right or scrapped. You have a moral obligation here to make sure all this bad work in not covered up!
From FAA Order 8100.11
Disposition of Scrap or Salvageable
Aircraft Parts and Materials
3. BACKGROUND. It is common practice for possessors of aircraft parts to dispose of scrap parts and materials by selling, discarding. or transferring such items. Improper control of these items could allow them back into the active parts inventories of the aviation community. Misrepresenting the status of aviation parts and materials and the practice of making such items appear senriceable could result in their use on certificated aircraft. Manufacturers could end up repurchasing their own parts and materials that thev have deemed scrap if the parts and materials are not destroyed bevond use as recommended b\- paragraph 7 of this order. Lacking the proper controls, parts can be copied or repaired and reintroduced into the market and represented as approved parts. This practice can have serious implications and incur liabilities on the production approval holder (PAH), certificate holder, or the repair facility. Advisory Circular (AC) 2 l-38, Disposition of Unsalvageable Aircraft Parts and Materials, also provides information and guidance to the public and suggests methods to prevent unsalvageable aircraft parts and materials from being sold and reinstalled on certificated aircraft as serviceable parts and materials.
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kbehrent
Well Known Member
I think you already know what to do, it's just hard for you to face it.
If you feel comfortable that you provided the same value in storing, fixing, and flying his planes as he has given you in allowing you to fly them, than you owe him nothing, other than an honest conversation with him concerning the issue you have in continuing to help him build these wings in such an unsafe manner.
If possible, I would have someone else, such as a Tech Counselor, or other experienced RV builder that he would respect, provide an unbias assesment of the quality/safety of the work so far. If he refuses to listen, you've done your part and it's time to let go. A good friend wouldn't put you in that situation.
Just my $.02 worth.
If you feel comfortable that you provided the same value in storing, fixing, and flying his planes as he has given you in allowing you to fly them, than you owe him nothing, other than an honest conversation with him concerning the issue you have in continuing to help him build these wings in such an unsafe manner.
If possible, I would have someone else, such as a Tech Counselor, or other experienced RV builder that he would respect, provide an unbias assesment of the quality/safety of the work so far. If he refuses to listen, you've done your part and it's time to let go. A good friend wouldn't put you in that situation.
Just my $.02 worth.
Greg Arehart
Well Known Member
Daniel,
Tough call on what is the best course of action. But at the very least you should not let these wings get onto an airplane and covered with defect-hiding paint.
Hope you find your way through this.
greg
Tough call on what is the best course of action. But at the very least you should not let these wings get onto an airplane and covered with defect-hiding paint.
Hope you find your way through this.
greg
rv9aviator
Well Known Member
Sorry, but your freind is not being a very good friend. He is taking advantage of your generosity to help and letting you use a plane that he obviously doesn't need or want to fly himself and getting you to maintain his plane plus build a set of wings. My real problem is that he doesn't even plan on keeping the plane to enjoy. It's just a money thing to him without doing any of the work. You need to be spending your time finishing your own plane so you can fly it and you won't need anyone else's plane. Yes, I'm a posterior orfice but life's too short.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
I guess It's a Matter of Perspective
I returned his plane to him in better shape than I received it in (new battery, replaced faulty voltage regulator, had transponder repaired twice, replaced altitude encoder, kept it in my hangar for a year (as opposed to sitting outside in a different state as a high dollar birds nest which is what it was doing when I got it)). So it's not like I've got nothing in it as well. He is using my tools, he has lost / broken tools, he has lost my clecos, used my proseal, broken my drill bits, used my hardware, and not to mention, I'm storing all of his stuff at no charge as well.
We all look at these sort of things differently. Sounds like you've already made a decision. Me - I'd give him my wings and build another set for myself. I'd also tell him that I need to use my free time to continue my own build. The real benefit is I've learned a lesson that will stay with me and make me feel good at the same time, and more importantly, I've preserved a friendship that I value.
Terry
I returned his plane to him in better shape than I received it in (new battery, replaced faulty voltage regulator, had transponder repaired twice, replaced altitude encoder, kept it in my hangar for a year (as opposed to sitting outside in a different state as a high dollar birds nest which is what it was doing when I got it)). So it's not like I've got nothing in it as well. He is using my tools, he has lost / broken tools, he has lost my clecos, used my proseal, broken my drill bits, used my hardware, and not to mention, I'm storing all of his stuff at no charge as well.
We all look at these sort of things differently. Sounds like you've already made a decision. Me - I'd give him my wings and build another set for myself. I'd also tell him that I need to use my free time to continue my own build. The real benefit is I've learned a lesson that will stay with me and make me feel good at the same time, and more importantly, I've preserved a friendship that I value.
Terry
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
Sounds like a plane I would not want to ride in when finished.
If he is this bad on the wings, what about fuel line? Oil lines? Stuff that can kill you?
His best option may be to cut his losses and sell what is useable.
Giving him your wings on a project that may be otherwise questionable does not seem like a good choice.
If he is this bad on the wings, what about fuel line? Oil lines? Stuff that can kill you?
His best option may be to cut his losses and sell what is useable.
Giving him your wings on a project that may be otherwise questionable does not seem like a good choice.
suck it up!
You need to own up to your end of the deal. You have enjoyed the use of his airplane. Simply explain to him that some of the workmanship is in question give him a list of the things you will need to make it right and get it over with. Explain that you only feel comfortable with the type of workmanship that you are used to. (example: this is the way I was raised and I dont feel comfortable makeing any compromises!)
I wish I could say I hadnt learned this lesson before. Good luck.
Ryan
You need to own up to your end of the deal. You have enjoyed the use of his airplane. Simply explain to him that some of the workmanship is in question give him a list of the things you will need to make it right and get it over with. Explain that you only feel comfortable with the type of workmanship that you are used to. (example: this is the way I was raised and I dont feel comfortable makeing any compromises!)
I wish I could say I hadnt learned this lesson before. Good luck.
Ryan
David Paule
Well Known Member
Getting to fly his airplanes is kind of a big deal. He needs some wings and you're not happy with the ones he's worked on.
Would it be appropriate to buy him some QB wings and finish them off for him?
Dave
Would it be appropriate to buy him some QB wings and finish them off for him?
Dave
Do the right thing
1 - You need to realize that doing the right thing MIGHT cost your friendship. Once you get over that hurdle you can get on with doing it.
2 - You need to separate the value associated with the use of his airplanes, and the compensating factors (time invested on wings, storage, repairs.....) from the issue of poor work practices. Deal with each separately.
3 - Regarding the use of airplanes and the compensating factors - work out a reasonable deal - be MORE than fair. This can be resolved with a few dollars. Accept that the deal of airplane usage is over. Rent from now on.
4 - Regarding the poor work practices, have a straight discussion about what you believe is acceptable and what is not. If he is not prepared to work to that standard as a minimum, you have to refuse to work on this airplane.
Free advice, you get what you pay for
1 - You need to realize that doing the right thing MIGHT cost your friendship. Once you get over that hurdle you can get on with doing it.
2 - You need to separate the value associated with the use of his airplanes, and the compensating factors (time invested on wings, storage, repairs.....) from the issue of poor work practices. Deal with each separately.
3 - Regarding the use of airplanes and the compensating factors - work out a reasonable deal - be MORE than fair. This can be resolved with a few dollars. Accept that the deal of airplane usage is over. Rent from now on.
4 - Regarding the poor work practices, have a straight discussion about what you believe is acceptable and what is not. If he is not prepared to work to that standard as a minimum, you have to refuse to work on this airplane.
Free advice, you get what you pay for
Dave Taylor
Well Known Member
Your last quoted sentence is what prompted me to post. Although you have flown his planes, in my opinion you have to find a way of telling him how you feel. I haven't seen the build personally so I can't speak to the condition. I too have a couple of rounded holes in my spar under the Z channel spar brackets but I sent pictures to Van's and got some advice on how to handle it. You have to think how you would feel if you helped him finish the plane so he could get his money out of it and someone lost their husband and/or child in an accident after it's sold. I'm not trying to scare you and it may not be likely but it is something to think about. Whatever your decision I hope you have a good outcome.
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David-aviator
Well Known Member
What do I do?
Tell him his project is interfering with your project more than expected and that you'll get back to his wings after you complete and fly your airplane.
Is there a way out of this without ruining our friendship?
Probably not. It's like a bad marriage.
Tell him his project is interfering with your project more than expected and that you'll get back to his wings after you complete and fly your airplane.
Is there a way out of this without ruining our friendship?
Probably not. It's like a bad marriage.
Mike D
Well Known Member
So I think you have been some good advice so I can't add to that.
A question for everyone.
Without causing too much thread creep here, what is the legality of someone working on a plane in exchange for the use of the other aircraft? It would be one thing if he was working with you, but it seems this is now a barter situation. Or am I reading too much into that? It doesn't seem to have started this way, but it seems to have ended up this way. How much can someone barter on a build?
A question for everyone.
Without causing too much thread creep here, what is the legality of someone working on a plane in exchange for the use of the other aircraft? It would be one thing if he was working with you, but it seems this is now a barter situation. Or am I reading too much into that? It doesn't seem to have started this way, but it seems to have ended up this way. How much can someone barter on a build?
I've reread your post a couple of times and..
it seems to me to be an issue of your friend compromising your standards. It's akin to watching a buddy steal something and you don't say anything but continue to agonize over it. The fact that you are flying his aircraft or any other benefits is no excuse for allowing someone to overwrite what you stand for. You either have standards or you don't.
If you want to have peace of mind there is only one choice: stop compromising.
Good luck,
Don
it seems to me to be an issue of your friend compromising your standards. It's akin to watching a buddy steal something and you don't say anything but continue to agonize over it. The fact that you are flying his aircraft or any other benefits is no excuse for allowing someone to overwrite what you stand for. You either have standards or you don't.
If you want to have peace of mind there is only one choice: stop compromising.
Good luck,
Don
N395V
Well Known Member
Watch some old episodes of "The Soprano's"
Wiseguy befriends someone and does them a favor or fulfills a seemingly simple need. Then the payback comes and the payback lasts forever.
Whatever you are going to do, do it soon and get it over with. The longer you look for a solution, the longer the anguish will last.
Wiseguy befriends someone and does them a favor or fulfills a seemingly simple need. Then the payback comes and the payback lasts forever.
Whatever you are going to do, do it soon and get it over with. The longer you look for a solution, the longer the anguish will last.
mschmitt78
I'm New Here
Be up front and honest. From your descriptions you could lose your friend either way... it would be better for you to lose the friend due to a disagreement rather than to lose him due to him losing his life because no one came out and told him what he is doing is wrong. Tell him your willing to help, but only if it is done right and that means starting over. Then the ball is in his court. If he can't listen to his friend and see you're looking out for him then it better that you guys part company. My $.02.
RickWoodall
Well Known Member
Opinions
Be a friend, lend him your tools, replace what he breaks and loses... BUT..do let him know your concern abou the quality and do NOT help him.
If he cant rivet, cant debur etc and cant do any part of it to a reasonable standard....this project will get stuck in the mud. It will never get finished and signed off if he is that kind of builder. Does he have a valid pilots lic...I have not met any builders who are actuall pilots who dont take the safety and quality very seriously.
That way your conscience is clear, you said what needed to be said. You are not working on it but paying back some favours by lending your tools. There is so much to building one right to completion and so many life changes that can derail it...just pray one gets him off track and you can get your tools all back. Good luck
Be a friend, lend him your tools, replace what he breaks and loses... BUT..do let him know your concern abou the quality and do NOT help him.
If he cant rivet, cant debur etc and cant do any part of it to a reasonable standard....this project will get stuck in the mud. It will never get finished and signed off if he is that kind of builder. Does he have a valid pilots lic...I have not met any builders who are actuall pilots who dont take the safety and quality very seriously.
That way your conscience is clear, you said what needed to be said. You are not working on it but paying back some favours by lending your tools. There is so much to building one right to completion and so many life changes that can derail it...just pray one gets him off track and you can get your tools all back. Good luck
Andrew M
Well Known Member
Just ask.
There are a lot of concerns you have, rightfully so. I suggest saying something like" I want out because... ,what can I do to make it right? "
Then you will know what (and just exactly who) your dealing with. His opinion is the one that matters (or not). Negotiate as appropriate.
Good Luck
There are a lot of concerns you have, rightfully so. I suggest saying something like" I want out because... ,what can I do to make it right? "
Then you will know what (and just exactly who) your dealing with. His opinion is the one that matters (or not). Negotiate as appropriate.
Good Luck
If you have done work on these wings, you are legally responsible for the final product, just as much as your friend. In a "joint and several" liability state, you could be on the hook for 100% of any damages in a subsequent lawsuit.
I don't know how you're going to do this exactly, but the end result has to be that these wings are never used for flight. Park them in a corner of your hangar and keep an eye on them. If he starts working on them again you're going to have to intervene. You are legally connected to this mess now.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Moral implications aside for just a moment - has there ever been a successful lawsuit involving the quality of construction/liability of a E-AB aircraft against a private party?
Allen Barrett
Well Known Member
How much?
49% of course! Could it be that he doesn't possess the necessary skills to do the work right? Or does he just not care? If his sole objective is to finish the project and unload it, IMO he doesn't care, nor does it concern him of the safety issues it creates. That is the scary part.
I'm with about everyone else on this. Tell him the truth about his shoddy work (with some tact), offer to re-do the work WITH him while you also mentor, or give him his parts back, tell him good luck and wash your hands.
And let us know what N number he reserved
49% of course! Could it be that he doesn't possess the necessary skills to do the work right? Or does he just not care? If his sole objective is to finish the project and unload it, IMO he doesn't care, nor does it concern him of the safety issues it creates. That is the scary part.
I'm with about everyone else on this. Tell him the truth about his shoddy work (with some tact), offer to re-do the work WITH him while you also mentor, or give him his parts back, tell him good luck and wash your hands.
And let us know what N number he reserved
Not that I know of. But I don't consider that adequate assurance....
Rhetorical question...What does "sold as is" mean nowadays? In this case, if sold, wouldn't the expectation would be amerature built...caveat emptor.
And I'll leave it at that.
Jim
