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Who owns the runway?

sailvi767 said:
Bill, I have always believed 3 miles to be the limit for being considered in the pattern. I can't however find a reference for that or any reference for max final length other then a minimum of ? mile. Anyone have a reference for this?
George
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It is a judgement call. A radio call by an inbound flight does not transfer runway ownership to the pilot, it just alerts everyone listening he is in the area. Is he in the pattern 3 miles out, depends on the type of air plane and how it is being flown I suppose.

The gist of this thread is JUDGMENT and clear communication. Those are items very difficult to define by rules and regulation as is the VFR traffic pattern at an uncontrolled airport. Left turns, right turns, cross wind, down wind, and base legs definable but the size of the pattern is a matter of judgment and common sense.

My point about who owns the runway is also a matter of judgment. The inbound aircraft should not have to go around because of an aircraft on the ground, that seems simple enough.

Clear communication is essential. We have back taxi procedures at our private airport and if an aircraft is in the pattern you sometimes will hear " I will extend the pattern" for the departing flight.

A problem with flight like driving are aggressive attitudes. There are pilots who prefer to not give way on the ground or in the air. I give way to these individuals (idiots) in an airplane or car, I don't like near misses, investigations, or collisions.

I suppose the conclusion is idiots rule at uncontrolled airports.
 
David-aviator said:
I suppose the conclusion is idiots rule at uncontrolled airports.
Click to expand...

That's true about everything in life. All rules are made to take into account idiots. :D

Yesterday we had an interesting flight into Brenham, TX (11R), site of a VERY popular on-field restaurant. We were uncharacteristically coming at it from the Southeast, having stopped at another airport South of Houston, which made pattern entry for Rwy 16 an easy and natural entry on a 45 to the downwind.

The radio was alive with arrivals. A Skyhawk and a Mooney announced ten miles North west. I knew we'd beat them handily (we were ticking along at 170 knots) into the pattern, but then a Baron announced that HE was ten miles Southeast. So were we.

Hmmm. Where could he be? ADS-B showed nothing (not surprising, since it's not a complete system yet), and our Mark I eyeballs didn't see him either. So I asked his altitude and position.

He stated he was now 8 miles out, at 2000', descending.

I looked at my GPS. I, too was 8 miles out, descending through 2000'. This was going to be interesting.

Finally, I asked his groundspeed. He was doing 174 knots.

At this point, discretion was the better part of valor. I told him that I would make a standard rate 360 degree turn for spacing, since he was burning twice as much gas as I was. He thanked me, and proceeded into the pattern.

This seemed like a good thing to do -- until Mary called out traffic going over us, separated by less than 500'. We never heard him, but he must have been a departure from Brenham, climbing out. Thankfully, the Big Sky theory of aircraft separation saved us from trading paint, cuz I never saw him.

So, the moral of the story: Be careful out there. And perhaps making a 360 degree turn just 7 miles from a busy uncontrolled airport was a bad idea, although it didn't seem so at the time.
 
A few resources those who are interested in this issue my find useful:

From AC 90-42F (Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers): "Inbound aircraft should initiate contact approximately 10 miles from the airport. lnbounds should report altitude, aircraft type, and location relative to the airport; should indicate whether landing or overflight; and should request airport advisory." 90-42F goes on to provide additional guidance as to what to say and when to say it as you approach a non-towered airport. Might be worth a look.

Also AC 90-66A (Traffic Patterns and Practices at Non-Towered Airports): Makes it clear that airport operators and owners have the responsibility and right to establish the preferred traffic pattern at their (non-towered) airports, but that the FAA "encourages airport owners and operators to establish traffic patterns as recommended in this AC (downwind entry on a 45 degree angle). Further, left traffic patterns should be established except where obstacles, terrain, and noise sensitive areas dictate otherwise."

Another source is AC 90-48C "Pilot's Responsibility in Collision Avoidance". When approaching an unfamiliar airport fly over or circle the airport at least 500 feet above traffic pattern altitude (usually at 2,000 feet or more above the surface) to observe the airport layout, any local traffic in the area, and the wind and traffic direction indicators. Never descend into the traffic pattern from directly above the airport.

FAR 91.113 (Right of Way Rules):

(b) "General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear."

(g) "Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft."

All of the above is subject to a certain amount of interpretation, but my impression from reading all of these AC's as well as all of the AOPA and other "interested party" information on the subject is that the FAA frowns on straight-ins at untowered airports. Further, the FAA expects pilots to take full responsibility for their own separation, to "see and be seen", and to announce their intentions either on the radio with a sequence of calls beginning approximately 10 miles from the point of intended landing AND by entering a "standard" left hand downwind 45 degree entry, or whatever pattern has been stipulated by the local airport authority.

The net of this appears to be that you are absolutely on your own at untowered airports, but that if there is an incident you are on more solid ground if you apply and follow the rules above.

Regards,


Lee...
 
Communication

Communication: Who you are, where you are, what you want/intend to do.

The OP communicated the first two items, the third was unclear at best.

The landing aircraft got the first two and zero for the 3rd.

The OP should have run all runups and checks etc before entering active runway, but, sounds like he WAS off the runway when the landing aircraft landed. This meets the criteria of "out of your way" to me.

To me it sounds like both pilots were equally at fault here, and the biggest problem was poor communication.

Lesson learned with zero damage or injury? Win!
 
I have to agree with Mel and Lee, the aircraft on final does have the right of way. If this fellow was on an IFR flight plan shooting an GPS approach then center will generally allow him to contact advisory freq to state his intentions and get an update on the runway situation.

That being said, you did broadcast your intentions, and as has been previously stated tried to communicate. But the landing aircraft has the right of way.

Having been in to Brenham airport several times in our Challenger, we too have run into traffic in the area. Jack and Janet run a nice operation there and we hope to visit them in April 2014

The bonanza pilot also was probably trying to be "cute" and let you know he is the big dog.... Our policy if we see an aircraft on the runway regardless and we do not have an emergency it is very easy for us to go around and do it again...

Sometimes macho ism gets in the the brains of pilots and it is a shame.
.02c worth
 
sailvi767 said:
Bill, I have always believed 3 miles to be the limit for being considered in the pattern. I can't however find a reference for that or any reference for max final length other then a minimum of ? mile. Anyone have a reference for this?
George
Click to expand...
George,

I had to look it up because I have posted this before:

The FAA does define a pattern. Go to page 5 of this FAA FISDO Plane Talk document.

For more discussion on the topic, check out this thread.
 
N941WR said:
George,

I had to look it up because I have posted this before:

The FAA does define a pattern. Go to page 5 of this FAA FISDO Plane Talk document.

For more discussion on the topic, check out this thread.
Click to expand...

Bill,

Well it sort of defines the down wind leg as 1/2 to 1 mile from the airport reference the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. That would be appropriate for a C-150 in a training situation but not for a Citation coming in to drop off a passenger.

I like the final paragraph of the 2006 article:

Do your best to enter your patterns on a 45 degree to a downwind and avoid entering it any other way if possible. Most of
all, use common sense, be courteous, be legal, and keep your
eyes out of the cockpit and look for traffic.
 
David-aviator said:
Bill,

Well it sort of defines the down wind leg as 1/2 to 1 mile from the airport reference the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. That would be appropriate for a C-150 in a training situation but not for a Citation coming in to drop off a passenger.
...
Click to expand...
Yep, but let's face it, Citation's don't use uncontrolled fields very often. At least not as often 172's, Cherokees, Bonanzas, etc.

I have seen VFR pilots, myself included, go out of their way to get out of the way for in bound Business jets at uncontrolled fields. I've also seen a 152 take off right in front of an inbound DC-3 and force the DC-3 to go around, right over the top of the Cessna.

Keeping your eyes out for traffic is our number one responsibility. Not doing something stupid is #2.
 
N941WR said:
...The FAA does define a pattern. Go to page 5 of this FAA FISDO Plane Talk document..
Click to expand...

I always get a kick out of this FAA stuff (I used to work for the outfit).

"Additionally, ?91.126 spells out the direction of turns for a non-controlled airport which states, ?Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right."

The runway is designated for left traffic so I have to make ALL turns to the left. I am also supposed to enter the pattern on a 45. So how do I transition from the 45 to downwind without making a right turn?
 
n5lp said:
The runway is designated for left traffic so I have to make ALL turns to the left. I am also supposed to enter the pattern on a 45. So how do I transition from the 45 to downwind without making a right turn?
Click to expand...

I think the assumption* is that you are not "in the pattern" until you make that turn to downwind.

* There's that word again!
 
n5lp said:
I always get a kick out of this FAA stuff (I used to work for the outfit).

"Additionally, §91.126 spells out the direction of turns for a non-controlled airport which states, “Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right."

The runway is designated for left traffic so I have to make ALL turns to the left. I am also supposed to enter the pattern on a 45. So how do I transition from the 45 to downwind without making a right turn?
Click to expand...

The full applicable text of 91.126 -

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace--
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and....

It all hinges on what "approaching to land" means...:)
 
soooooooo........in everyones minds would it have been appropiate if the bonanza pilot had announced his intentions and landed 2000 foot upwind of the displaced threshold or would that too have been considered unsafe?
 
Announcing an arrival

I was taught that the inbound call to a non towered aerodrome should be like this...Traffic (name of airport) Cessna 172 XYZ is 5 miles north inbound at 2500' descending to 1000' to join circuit downwind for runway 21.

Then the chance of 2 aircraft in the same spot at the same time is significantly lessened.

Cheers

Jim
 
Greg Arehart said:
I had an event (don't want to call it an "incident") today that made me wonder about runway "ownership."
Click to expand...

I was taught to fly in the USAF where we had very strict rules on radio calls. In the pattern we made radio calls with exact wording at specific positions. Mess one word, and your instructor (or the mobile controller) was all over you. To this day, I cringe at the "wordiness" and extraneous radio chatter at uncontrolled (and some controlled) civilian airports.

All that said, my military instructor told me one thing that has stuck with me for over 40 years: "A radio is made for talking. Sometimes you just have to talk to someone and say what needs to be said"

I can't count the times that I've had to do just that in an uncontrolled traffic pattern. In the interest of safety I just talk to the other aircraft when there is a conflict. In this case I believe I would have just said something like this: "Bonanza; RV. My apologies, but I am already on the runway and can't get off. If you will make a 360, I will expedite my takeoff and call you when I am airborne."

The other day, I was flying a practice VOR approach at Sulphur Springs (KSLR). Approaching the VOR inbound I heard a Bonanza call takeoff with a turn to the northeast, which was right toward me. I was at 2300' (1800' AGL) and began to estimate the Bonanza's climb rate and my distance from the airport. The closer I got to the airport the more uneasy I felt. I finally called the Bonanza and said that I thought we had a conflict. I offered to stay above 2300' if he would stay below. He agreed, and I passed exactly over him with about 500' vertical clearance.

-John
 
"Mandatory Frequency Airport"

Just wondering - where is that defined in the FARs or the AIM? And how is it shown on the charts?

Trying to learn something here...
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Just wondering - where is that defined in the FARs or the AIM? And how is it shown on the charts?
Trying to learn something here...
Click to expand...

As far as I know, in the US, there is no such thing as a "mandatory frequency airport".
I have known several airports that have put up signs that stated, radios must be used, but it is not enforceable.
 
Why we should keep charts updated

A related incident, a number of years ago, occurred when I was landing at a rather busy uncontrolled airport. Like I was taught, I announced all my positions and intentions while doing a standard traffic pattern and landing. Noticed a couple of other aircraft, one ahead of me, and one landing behind me, but both were silent, making no calls. As I was taxiing in, and the following airplane was rolling out on the runway, I made some smart crack about the guy with the broken radio on the runway.

Fortunately, no one heard me, because I was the one on the wrong frequency, as it had just changed, and was indicated on the newest paper chart which I had not yet purchased. This was before online updates, databases, etc., since Loran was the hot new navigation setup at that time.
 
n5lp said:
The runway is designated for left traffic so I have to make ALL turns to the left. I am also supposed to enter the pattern on a 45. So how do I transition from the 45 to downwind without making a right turn?
Click to expand...

Simple, turn 315 degrees to the left:rolleyes:
 
rv7boy said:
How many instructors teach their students about Instrument approaches that are practiced at their non-tower airport? If a student goes up for his/her first solo and hears "Piper 123 Alpha Bravo is on a Vee-Oh-R ALPHA practice approach to Runway 18" will that student pilot know how (from which direction) the other plane is approaching the airport?

I had to learn this the hard way many hours after my Private Pilot rating, and I haven't forgotten it. And I don't think it's in the current syllabus for students prior to the first solo. When that student pilot goes to another airport on a solo cross-country, will he/she be aware of the practice approaches that may be called out on Unicom at that airport?

As a minimum, the student should be made aware that practice Instrument approaches mean a pilot is often approaching a non-tower airport in a manner quite different than the typical pattern requires. Any pilot on the ground or in the air who does not understand where another aircraft is as it approaches a non-tower airport should not hesitate to inquire where it is and where it's going.
Click to expand...

Good point, but I think it's a good idea to always take the thought out of it for the other aircraft. Rather than saying what approach you're doing, state where you are relative to the field. Everyone will have a much better idea where "6 miles northeast" is versus the "GPS 36 over pappy intersection". I taught my instrument students this and continued into my airline career. A number of our evening flights arrived after the tower was closed. Having multiple radios (and pilots) makes it easy to monitor and make position reports on CTAF while still with whatever radar controller is vectoring you.

Your reasoning is also why I made my students utilize flight following. Every little bit helps.
 
Diversity

Given the diversity of opinions and the absence of a universal rule, as with the geriatric joke, the answer to the who "owns" the runway question is, "depends." The question as phrased is telling, but there are many situations and conditions that affect the answer so it comes down to judgment and courtesy of whose turn it is to "use" the runway. I love to learn something from every sortie I fly. I also admit I have an "I am second" personality so unless I truly experience near death I rarely get angry by other pilots sometimes inexplicable actions. I still make plenty of mistakes after 1000 hours. I consider it my failure to anticipate bad decisions by other pilots and not have an alternate plan at the ready. I also suggest some of those quick to label other pilots as "stupid", "jerk", etc too quickly decide "I'm right and they're wrong" and it's only the other guy that needs the lesson. I'm no psychiatrist, but changing yourself is much easier than someone else. So where the situation allows for it, candid but polite conversation afterward, even if only with yourself has more positive influence than vein-popping, blame-laced venting. That's just one man's opinion - I could be wrong.
 
Nice Bill. The only runway that I "own" is my strip. I'm just borrowing a little piece of every other runway. Since someone else was good enough to let me use it I try not to be a hog. I also don't get too excited about someone landing over me. If they hit me instead of pavement I'll just smack em one. Both parties in the OP needed to talk more and ask for clarification. We need to employ defensive tolerance. Gets right down to it, we're still just a bunch of monkeys in airplanes pushin' knobs to see what happens.
 
Can you see me???

Just like on all motorcycles today that run with headlights on full time...... Turn on your landing light when you depart an airport, and when you get within 10 miles of landing.

It is not easy to see a small white airplane on a one mile final. But you can see the landing light over five miles out.
 
My two takeaways. I would never do any portion of a runup on the active. I would have gotten clarification of his announcement? Seems like poor radio skills on his part, and maybe yours as well.
 
pilotpip said:
Good point, but I think it's a good idea to always take the thought out of it for the other aircraft. Rather than saying what approach you're doing, state where you are relative to the field. Everyone will have a much better idea where "6 miles northeast" is versus the "GPS 36 over pappy intersection". I taught my instrument students this and continued into my airline career. A number of our evening flights arrived after the tower was closed. Having multiple radios (and pilots) makes it easy to monitor and make position reports on CTAF while still with whatever radar controller is vectoring you.

Your reasoning is also why I made my students utilize flight following. Every little bit helps.
Click to expand...

This is always perplexing to me as well. But I have to say, that I catch myself sometimes in my local environment using "established" landmarks. The problem is that they are meaningless to anyone that doesn't fly there regularly.
 
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