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Who owns the runway?

Greg Arehart

Greg Arehart

Well Known Member
I had an event (don't want to call it an "incident") today that made me wonder about runway "ownership." I think I know the answer but here's what happened. I taxiied out to the runway and backtaxied to the end of runway 16 (no taxiway here). As I started taxiing onto the runway, I announced my intentions. A bonanza driver then announced that he was 2.6 out from the airport, planning on landing. I told him that I was taxiing down the runway and would get out of the way as soon as possible. I turned around at the end of the runway and was running up the engine when - whoosh - overhead, the guy just lands over the top of me:eek:. Note that there is a displaced threshold at this airport, and he did land beyond the threshold. But it did kind of scare the pejesus out of me and my first-time-flying-in-a-little-airplane passenger to see this guy come in only maybe 40 feet above us.

So, I was always taught that whoever is on the runway "owns" the runway completely until that aircraft is either in the air (on takeoff) or clear of the active runway (on landing). [For the record, this is a non-towered airport.] I thought this guy should have either gone around or otherwise delayed his landing. Am I correct?

Cheers, and happy new year.
Greg
 
OPINION!

If the guy was on final, then the runway is his. The question is; where does final begin? In my opinion, 2.5 miles is NOT in the pattern.

On the other side of the coin, if there is no taxiway, run-up should be done before entering the runway.
 
Poor piloting

IMHO....I feel he should have delayed his landing until you took off. What if he had engine issues on final and landed short of the displaced threshold. I agree with Mel on doing the run up prior to getting on the runway. I probably would have " discussed" the Bonanza drivers poor piloting skills with him....but that's just me!
 
My Opinion

If he announced 2.6 out and the GPS airport center is in the middle, then he was probably less than 2.4 out. That's not far in a Bonanza. If you were close to the taxiway you entered on perhaps you should have turned and cleared.

I think the guy flying always has the right of way over the guy on the ground. Sounds like you required too much time to back taxi and get going. Some additional communication might have been in order as a courtesy.

That said, if he knew you were there and landed over top of you without coordination, he's an idiot.

Don
 
Can't answer the legal question, but I regularly fly out of a non-towered airport without taxiways. It is a Mandatory Frequency airport.

My procedure is to do all my checks and runup on the ramp, then call backtracking 10 - 15 seconds before entering the runway to give others time to respond. I always look both ways regardless of how the wind is blowing to see if anyone is coming NORDO. If someone calls with an inbound position I decide whether I have time to backtrack and takeoff without interfering with their operation. If I don't think I have this much time before their arrival I wait.
 
I would have announced my intention BEFORE entering and starting to backtaxi onto the runway. Then, when bonanza driver said he was 2.6 miles out, or 1 minute 20 seconds out, I would have waited for him to land before entering the active runway..
 
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

As previously mentioned "where does final begin."

Of course, flying a standard pattern would answer that question and make it easier to see what is happening on the surface prior to landing.
 
Radios are great inventions. What we have here is "a failure to communicate." I think these sorts of conflicts are a daily occurrence and I'm always coordinating with the other pilot(s) to sort out who is doing what so we can all fly safely.

On the other hand, I recently had some gal in a low wing something-or-other report she was on downwind behind me, had me in sight and would follow me. I called Base and the next thing I knew she was off my left wing calling turning Final, with no Base call. Yikes! Obviously, she never saw me and could have run right up my tailpipe.

I called her and told her I didn't appreciate her "following me" by cutting me out of the pattern - to which she replied with a giggle "Sorry about that."

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
cfiidon said:
If he announced 2.6 out and the GPS airport center is in the middle, then he was probably less than 2.4 out. That's not far in a Bonanza. If you were close to the taxiway you entered on perhaps you should have turned and cleared.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but... saying you're 2.6 miles "out" is pretty vague. Is that a 2.6 mile final? Maybe 2.6 miles W to cross over to an E downwind to slow down and fly a Boeing sized pattern? 2.6 (or even 2.4) miles "out" isn't really in the pattern yet. I'd have done the same as Greg did. I will say that IMHO the Bonanza driver was an idiot for landing over the top without even a brief radio discussion to the guy on the ground; that's just plain stupid.

Just my opinion of course.
 
NASA515 said:
...I called her and told her I didn't appreciate her "following me" by cutting me out of the pattern - to which she replied with a giggle "Sorry about that."

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
Click to expand...

At least she was on the radio. I had a little conversation with a package carrier twin Cessna pilot yesterday after I saw him on a long straight in final when I was on base. I had to break off to avoid him.

On the ground I informed him in person that his transmitter was not working. Oh, isn't the frequency xxxx? Well as a matter of fact it isn't. I wonder how long he had been flying this route daily while picking some random wrong frequency?

Always important to look around even at a low traffic airport in the boondocks.
 
Greg,

It sounds like you were not on the runway at the time. I may be wrong here but if you had backtracked the runway and sitting in the undershoot, you were not on the runway.

So no big deal.

As for radio comms, if only people would stick to the standard phraseology things would work a lot better. In aviation the USA usually leads the way. This is one area that the inverse is true. Too much sloppy R/T. It does not help.
 
We had nearly this exact scenario happen to us a few weeks ago. Mary was PIC in the front cockpit, and announced that she was back-taxiing on Rwy 12 for departure. (No taxiways here, either.)

About half-way down the runway, a Pilatus PC-12 announced that they were on a "3-mile final" for Rwy 12. Yikes.

She expedited, but this guy was coming in hot, with obviously no intention of slowing down or going around. When we could see his landing lights getting bigger, she tucked our -8A as far into the turn-around at the arrival end as possible, and announced that she was holding short.

Whoosh! That big ol' PC-12 landed RIGHT over us. It was cool, and somewhat terrifying, watching as he approached, since it wouldn't take much for him to T-bone us.

I didn't like it one bit, but there didn't seem to be too many other options available to us.
 
I am no expert but I was always taught even in a non towered airport to announce 10 miles out, then approx 5, etc. Waiting until you are less than 2 minutes away is dumb no matter what the situation and who is right or wrong.
 
ty1295 said:
I am no expert but I was always taught even in a non towered airport to announce 10 miles out, then approx 5, etc. Waiting until you are less than 2 minutes away is dumb no matter what the situation and who is right or wrong.
Click to expand...

In my experience, the faster turboprops don't have a lot of time to announce on CTAF after getting cut loose from ATC. I don't like it, either, but at their speeds, all it takes is a slow-to-react controller to not release them until they're on a 3 mile final.

(And heaven forbid that they actually fly a normal traffic pattern! lol)
 
Even if a aircraft is released late from atc they should make Unicom calls on com 2 or 3. Some do and some don't.

George
 
"In my experience, the faster turboprops don't have a lot of time to announce on CTAF after getting cut loose from ATC. I don't like it, either, but at their speeds, all it takes is a slow-to-react controller to not release them until they're on a 3 mile final.

(And heaven forbid that they actually fly a normal traffic pattern! lol)"

Check out this collision between a Beech 1900 Commuter plane and a King Air in Quincy, Illinois. A long straight-in by the 1900 and fouled up communications with the other traffic at the uncontrolled airport.

http://aviation-safety.net/go.php?http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1997/AAR9704.htm

They don't pay them to burn the Company's gas, so they skip some of the niceties.

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
"In my experience, the faster turboprops don't have a lot of time to announce on CTAF after getting cut loose from ATC. I don't like it, either, but at their speeds, all it takes is a slow-to-react controller to not release them until they're on a 3 mile final.

(And heaven forbid that they actually fly a normal traffic pattern! lol)"

Check out this collision between a Beech 1900 Commuter plane and a King Air in Quincy, Illinois. A long straight-in by the 1900 and fouled up communications with the other traffic at the uncontrolled airport.

http://aviation-safety.net/go.php?http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1997/AAR9704.htm

They don't pay them to burn the Company's gas, so they skip some of the niceties.

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
Click to expand...


That link doesn't work anymore, but I clearly remember that accident. It was an unfortunate series of mistakes and blunders, leading up to disaster.
 
I believe there were 3 mistakes made, possibly 4 in the original posters scenario.

1. Not making the back taxi report PRIOR to entering the runway. (You are not giving others time to provide info that proves your intentions to be a safety issue)
2. Doing the run up after back taxiing. (You are creating a hazard for yourself if someone is coming in with issues, or poor skills. Also making yourself an obstacle for that same someone coming in with issues, or poor skills.)
3. Landing over the top, while legal if a displaced threshold existed, or barely clear in a turnaround, still arrogant in my opinion. He was either dumb to assume you would not takeoff, or dumb enough to try to teach a (deserved) lesson to someone he doesn't know.
4. No previous announcements of x miles out inbound for landing XYZ, this may or may not have happened, wasn't mentioned how long the departing radio was tuned up before taxi. If it was on and listening long before the taxi onto the runway bonanzas fault, if not departing ac fault (if it was on why no call before entering the runway?) (unfortunately I know a few idiots who turn their radios on nanoseconds before turning onto the runway. You can talk to them till you are blue in the face and they will still do it. Just hope I'm not there to see it bite hard one day. I believe it may.)

Like aviation incidents, it's a domino effect. The first mistakes created the latter mistakes. Any mistake fixed and the the end result would have been different.

My opinion,
Mark
 
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It is all too easy in these situations to search rulebooks and try to point fingers as to who was "wrong" and "right" i.e. the blame game. As the posters above show, no party seems entirely in the right. Furthermore, rulebooks cannot cover all situations (no taxiway for runups, displaced thesholds, ATC etc.)

Whatever, as the Beech 1900 crew showed, even if you are almost blameless, you may still die, as might be the passengers directly under your care...

I would alter the question to "what can I do in future?" to prevent it occurring again, or in similar circumstances. Assume everybody else is an idiot, or in CRM terms "has a different mental model to me" ;)

In this case you heard the guy in a ~2.5mile final and seem to have "assumed" he would not continue the approach. You don't say if he ever saw you, but certainly you did not protect yourself as best you could be ascertaining what he would now do, or ensuring if he did continue the approach (as he did) you were elsewhere.
 
Hmmm, assuming you spent more than a few seconds "listening" for other trafffic, and the Bonanza driver only got on the radio AFTER you announced, then this would be the case of the stereotypical Bonanza driver making a straight-in when its innappropriate. No class, no manners!
But, he has the right of way. Happens all the time.
 
N804RV said:
Hmmm, assuming you spent more than a few seconds "listening" for other trafffic, and the Bonanza driver only got on the radio AFTER you announced, then this would be the case of the stereotypical Bonanza driver making a straight-in when its innappropriate. No class, no manners!
But, he has the right of way. Happens all the time.
Click to expand...

How is a straight in with nobody in the pattern inappropriate? I think the manners here are displayed by taking an active of a single runway airport and then opting for the run-up. I suspect its a simple case of starting up and going without first checking who was inbound...we have all been guilty of assuming we are alone at some point.

As was said earlier, assumptions were made and the real problem was a lack of communication. Non towered so comm isn't required at all so this was a very small transgression that could belong to either of them. Perhaps the RV's initial call for traffic was stepped on by a nearby airports traffic. What would a piper cub with no radio on final have done if an aircraft pulled off on to the displaced? He would have landed over the top. No tower, both are responsible most of the time.
 
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After reading all the comments, I really do think the Canadian regs are much safer. You cannot make a straight in to final and most everyone flys the overhead to down wind at uncontrolled airports. So if someone is 2.5 out you still have lots of time and you can watch them in the circuit as you taxi. Even if they are Nordo, you can make safe decisions. I use this method when flying in the US as well clearly radioing my intentions at each circuit position. Any approach can be safe with good radio work, but the overhead makes it safe even if communication is not accurate or clear.
 
Greg Arehart said:
I had an event (don't want to call it an "incident") today that made me wonder about runway "ownership." I think I know the answer but here's what happened. I taxiied out to the runway and backtaxied to the end of runway 16 (no taxiway here). As I started taxiing onto the runway, I announced my intentions. A bonanza driver then announced that he was 2.6 out from the airport, planning on landing. I told him that I was taxiing down the runway and would get out of the way as soon as possible. I turned around at the end of the runway and was running up the engine when - whoosh - overhead, the guy just lands over the top of me:eek:. Note that there is a displaced threshold at this airport, and he did land beyond the threshold. But it did kind of scare the pejesus out of me and my first-time-flying-in-a-little-airplane passenger to see this guy come in only maybe 40 feet above us.

So, I was always taught that whoever is on the runway "owns" the runway completely until that aircraft is either in the air (on takeoff) or clear of the active runway (on landing). [For the record, this is a non-towered airport.] I thought this guy should have either gone around or otherwise delayed his landing. Am I correct?

Cheers, and happy new year.
Greg
Click to expand...

Let me clarify a few things: 1) I was listening to the radio for several minutes before taxiing onto the runway; 2) I made two calls, first announcing my intentions to taxi onto the runway, the second when almost to the end of the runway after he announced 2.6 out (this is when I said I would get out of the way asap); 3) there is no runup area at the end of the runway; 4) I had already done my preflight checklist, and just intended to do a mag check before takeoff (as I always do, takes 10 seconds max) - I had already been flying that morning; 5) there is a displaced threshold, and I was at the end of the runway when he landed; 6) his radio call gave no indication of a straight-in approach, it was just "bonanza is 2.6 north of the airport."

I also note that the end of this runway is below enough trees that from the end of the runway it is impossible to see an aircraft on final approach from the ground, and almost impossible for the approaching aircraft to see the end of the runway until on very short final (thus the displaced threshold, I presume).

My assumption (obviously wrong, which is why I originally posted the question here) was that this guy would/should enter a normal pattern and I would have time to get off the ground and out of his way. Or at least announce again that he was on a final approach so I knew what was going on.

I guess the safest course of action might theoretically have been to turn around and taxi back off the runway, but as events unfolded, I probably would have been right about where he landed at that point and this might have turned much uglier unless he saw me and did a go-around. So part of my intent in posting this is to see what could have been done (if anything) to break the chain of events.

Greg
 
True, you sometimes have little time after released by ATC. That is why our corporate flight department (Gulfstreams) has a policy of monitoring Unicom on Comm 2, while still with ATC. We arrive knowing the big picture, and no, I would not land over someone unless we talked about it, and were all comfortable with it.
 
Did he ever "communicate" with you? It almost sounds as if he never heard you nor saw you. Did he make a blind call and landed when no one responded? How many times does a pilot screw up with squelch, volume, and comm selection?

Scarey business.

Don
 
Greg Arehart said:
My assumption (obviously wrong, which is why I originally posted the question here) was that this guy would/should enter a normal pattern and I would have time to get off the ground and out of his way. Or at least announce again that he was on a final approach so I knew what was going on.

I guess the safest course of action might theoretically have been to turn around and taxi back off the runway, but as events unfolded, I probably would have been right about where he landed at that point and this might have turned much uglier unless he saw me and did a go-around. So part of my intent in posting this is to see what could have been done (if anything) to break the chain of events.

Greg
Click to expand...

One way to have broken the chain would have been to not assumed he was doing a full pattern. maybe you could have radioed back after his vague "2.6 miles north..." to ask his intentions. I have started making a change to my radio calls when approaching an airport just to allow all to know my intentions. I now say "RV 66AX 5 miles north inbound for landing planning right down wind for runway 16".
Yesterday it helped as I got immediate response saying "runway 34 is currently in use". It also avoids using the "Airport advisory please" which I detest when anyone uses it.
 
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Personally, with no run-up space at the end of the runway, I would have done the mag check before entering the runway. Regardless of how fast it is to do one, it's still bad form to be doing it while taking up runway space.

When you said that you would "get out of the way as soon as possible," what did you intend to convey to the Bonanza pilot? Were you going to take off? Were you going to find a cubbyhole alongside the runway somewhere? It's not really clear, and in any case, you didn't do it... He caught you still on the runway.
 
Snowflake said:
Personally, with no run-up space at the end of the runway, I would have done the mag check before entering the runway. Regardless of how fast it is to do one, it's still bad form to be doing it while taking up runway space.
.
Click to expand...

I have been flying with others that do a mag check while back taxiing. I always thought a little rushed and maybe unsafe to be looking inside fumbling for the mag switch while on the active runway. Opinions on if that is advisable? What about run ups while moving on a taxiway?
 
Greg Arehart said:
Let me clarify a few things: 1) I was listening to the radio for several minutes before taxiing onto the runway; 2) I made two calls, first announcing my intentions to taxi onto the runway, the second when almost to the end of the runway after he announced 2.6 out (this is when I said I would get out of the way asap); 3) there is no runup area at the end of the runway; 4) I had already done my preflight checklist, and just intended to do a mag check before takeoff (as I always do, takes 10 seconds max) - I had already been flying that morning; 5) there is a displaced threshold, and I was at the end of the runway when he landed; 6) his radio call gave no indication of a straight-in approach, it was just "bonanza is 2.6 north of the airport."

I also note that the end of this runway is below enough trees that from the end of the runway it is impossible to see an aircraft on final approach from the ground, and almost impossible for the approaching aircraft to see the end of the runway until on very short final (thus the displaced threshold, I presume).

My assumption (obviously wrong, which is why I originally posted the question here) was that this guy would/should enter a normal pattern and I would have time to get off the ground and out of his way. Or at least announce again that he was on a final approach so I knew what was going on.

I guess the safest course of action might theoretically have been to turn around and taxi back off the runway, but as events unfolded, I probably would have been right about where he landed at that point and this might have turned much uglier unless he saw me and did a go-around. So part of my intent in posting this is to see what could have been done (if anything) to break the chain of events.

Greg
Click to expand...

This is a very different story than told before. It does change things.

Biggest change that I see is I doubt the guy heard you.

A mag check is still a run up, and if visibility is what you say it is I would not want to sit there for it.

Mark
 
Greg Arehart said:
2) I made two calls, first announcing my intentions to taxi onto the runway, the second when almost to the end of the runway after he announced 2.6 out (this is when I said I would get out of the way asap);

I also note that the end of this runway is below enough trees that from the end of the runway it is impossible to see an aircraft on final approach from the ground, and almost impossible for the approaching aircraft to see the end of the runway until on very short final (thus the displaced threshold, I presume).
Click to expand...

Hmmm. You told him you would get out of the way, and then hid behind the trees. So where is the problem?
 
The last research I did on this for a safety briefing at our local non-towered airport basically distilled down to (1) landing aircraft "on final" have the right of way over aircraft taking off (2) but are cautioned not to unreasonably delay aircraft taking off and (3) straight in landings are fully legal but not recommended. It was asserted that the FAA will NOT support aircraft owners who are involved in legal actions as a result of any incident that occurs as a result of a straight-in.

The FAA's overriding caution is to "see and be seen". At un-towered airports where no-radio aircraft are free to operate, they strongly recommend the classic 45 degree downwind entry (since you are more easily seen than on a straight-in), announcing your intentions on the radio if you have one (or in effect, announcing your intentions via your behavior if you don't---i.e. openly/visibly entering downwind for a specific runway). Overhead approaches are readily visible and are also approved, but as above, 45 degree approaches are recommended and straight-ins are legal but not recommended and will not be supported in court by an "amicus" brief by the FAA.

You won't find any of that in just one place in the regs. You'll have to research the FAR's, AIM, and the Advisory Circulars, none of which (naturally) have the exact same wording nor level of authority. Plausible denial when things go wrong and full flexibility to rule anyway they like in the aftermath, seems to be the main Federal motivation. There are NO safe-passage guarantees at an un-towered airport, given that straight-in, overhead, and 45 degree entries are all "legal", not to mention aircraft without radios, and others that simply don't use them.

For me the most reasonable practice would be to conduct mag checks off the runway, and to scan the full downwind/upwind runway extended centerlines both ways before taking the runway. Then a careful check at the end to make sure you aren't departing just in front of a late arriving straight-in (who is likely "certain" they have the right-of-way and not you---since he is "on final" even though he may be 2.5 miles out) and also with no one arriving from the take-off direction either, and then get going immediately as you complete your turn around at the approach end.

And no, I don't always do that but it's what I should!


Lee...
 
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ColoRv said:
How is a straight in with nobody in the pattern inappropriate?
Click to expand...

It's not the best option at any non-tower airport but especially at airports like Greg's where you can't see all the runway from the final approach.
And if you need an update on the position of the known traffic, just ask 'em.
 
Just my $.02 worth, and you can apply discounts as needed.

"I'll get out of the way" can mean different things to different people. You probably meant (but didn't say), "I'll be taking off before you fly the pattern and land." The Bo driver, who didn't bother to say he was on a straight in final, may have seen you in the displaced threshold and thought, "OK, he's out of the way."

Every time I'm on final and see someone holding short at the end of the runway I get a little nervous. Unless they have specifically said they're holding short I watch them like a hawk and am ready to push the throttle in and go around if they do something dumb, and if I'm not certain I'll ask to make sure they see me on short final. Stories like this and my own relative inexperience are the reasons why.
 
I have a question that is sort of on the same subject of the long finals being discussed here. I'm based at a non-towered airport where a lot of instrument approaches are flown and I wonder at what point they have the right of way over traffic on downwind or base? I veiw the long final and an ILS approach as exactly the same.

The extra bit of excitment added to the mix in the pattern is the several aircraft based at the field that are NORAD.
 
In my book the guy in the air always owns the runway - he has the most to lose. It's been an unwritten rule since man invented flight, give him a break and talk about the circumstances later.
 
Runway ownership

I'm mostly a lurker here but there's one point I haven't seen commented on.
Tower controlled airports are simple, you call in and the controller tells you what to do. He/she coordinates landings and takeoffs.
Airports without a controller have a single frequency and the users are expected to coordinate things themselves. It seems that in this case the author called his intentions and the other pilot called his. No further calls after what sounds like dangerously conflicting plans. Seems to me both sides should have been on the comm here.
John Koonce
RV10/N78MU
 
I keep coming back to the radio - it's there, use it! To clarify. To coordinate.

I know you responded to the Bonanza pilot, but I would have directly asked his intentions - especially vis-a-vis me being on the active going the other way. "Getting out of the way", as others have stated, can be confusing.

As with the Beech 1900 in Quincy, the radio is your friend. If someone gets stepped-on, or the response is questionable - ask again - and again. I do it all the time. I refuse to leave the situation out there "hanging" - what did he say? What did he mean?

Someone commented on "detesting" asking for airport advisories. I guess I'm a baddy on that. If the airport has no weather reporting, and I hear nobody in the pattern, I'll ask 10 miles out what the active is. If you make the standard 45 entry, as so many posters seem to love, you need to get yourself positioned to make the proper 45. Usually someone comes back with the active runway.

I actually don't like the "standard 45." I think it's dangerous. My experience is, I'll report 4 miles on the 45 for a right downwind for Rwy 02 - and bingo, another guy reports 3 miles on the 45, and another as 5 miles, and maybe another as "maneuvering for the 45." Suddenly, there are a lot of bug-smashers in the same general vicinity, all trying to do the same thing.

I'd rather do a mid-field cross-over as mentioned by some, or a direct downwind entry, or even a cross-wind entry.

Without unleashing the masses, who I know from another thread on this subject, don't like straight-ins, I do, and make lots of them. If there's no one else reporting in the pattern, why not. My field has an ILS, as well as an assortment of Instrument Approaches, often being used for real or for practice, with accompanying straight-ins - often opposite direction to the traffic flow in use. The radio allows the needed coordination. As an opposite direction departure, I'll coordinate with the ILS inbound and wait or depart as we mutually agree to be feasible, and then often side-step to allow both operations to proceed safely.

If I'm making a straight-in, and I see that it's not feasible, I'll just side-step to the right and fly a COMPLETE pattern, including the Upwind Leg, etc. No problemo - I don't want guys to extend downwinds etc for me.

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
Hi Greg,

I've had similar happen at KDVO a few times. It sounds like you did your best to communicate prior to back taxi and were stuck on the runway when the Bo finally called. What I do in that situation is to "advise" the Bo I am on the runway and he may have to go around. Though it's a bit " in your face" it always gets a response. That way I have started a conversation and can negotiate from there. I agree with all I would not delay once on the runway, you were obviously in a conflict situation due partly to bad timing and to lack of comm on the Bo's part. I always monitor Awos and then ctaf while inbound with ATC. The Bo should have too. I have often suggested to a straight in that they fly the pattern for safety due to training traffic or other conflicts. Only very rarely does a jerk refuse. If they insist, I let them go and suggest they pee before flying next time. A little snarky humor works wonders...

See you in a few days!? Heading to RTS by 30th.

Neil
 
ColoRv said:
How is a straight in with nobody in the pattern inappropriate? ....
Click to expand...
How does a guy who is flying a straight in approach and announcing his intentions know he is the only one on final or about to turn final?

There are a lot of airplanes out there without radios and a log of people flying who accidently tune in the wrong frequency.

A straight in approach could create an issue with anyone of these.

I go out of my way to do a standard 45 degree entry (or cross wind entry) a Cessna speeds just to give myself a chance to see and avoid other aircraft.

Also, the FAA does not consider you in the pattern if you are greater than three miles away from the airport. So someone on five mile final isn't on final at all.
 
N941WR said:
How does a guy who is flying a straight in approach and announcing his intentions know he is the only one on final or about to turn final?
.
Click to expand...

I guess all I can say, Bill, is by tuning in your Mark I Eyeballs - you need them regardless of the radio and whatever the traffic may be doing on a certain day.

One thing is for certain, sun glare, windshield posts, and all the other contributing factors, in a mid-air, the NTSB's report always contains the same boilerplate - "Failure of the pilots to see and avoid the other aircraft."

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
I guess all I can say, Bill, is by tuning in your Mark I Eyeballs - you need them regardless of the radio and whatever the traffic may be doing on a certain day.
One thing is for certain, sun glare, windshield posts, and all the other contributing factors, in a mid-air, the NTSB's report always contains the same boilerplate - "Failure of the pilots to see and avoid the other aircraft."
Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
Click to expand...

One might also note that most mid-airs occur during Day/VFR with CAVU!
 
I always call out 10 miles out inbound. I listen for traffic and try to converse with anybody around. I never ask for advisories because I don't intend to use the other pilot's advice. I do ask if anybody else is in the pattern. I do fly straight in most of the time when I can or it's convenient, but it join the pattern when others are in it. Above all, I try to communicate and clarify.

We have 2 runways at X35 (Dunnellon, FL) that share one end, so you usually have to taxi back on one of them. I make a point to taxi the runway that doesn't favor the wind. I sometimes do a mag check on taxi, but not a long one. Otherwise I do it off the runway.

In the situation discussed I would do my run up before entering the runway and would have tried to open a conversation with the Bonanza to verify we were on the same page. I wouldn't consider him on final until he called final, and if I was on the runway I would consider that I had right-of-way and let him know I would takeoff ASAP to allow him in, while making it clear that I was already on the runway and considered it mine.

Here's a scary one. We had 3 planes in the pattern on rwy 10, all calling at least downwind and final, and a stupid Decathlon using 05 (which shares an end with 10), not calling anything. The 3 in the pattern were calling the Decathlon's pattern for him so the others could avoid. He had his strobes on, so he had to have a radio, but he either didn't see or didn't care. I'm kind of glad he left without getting fuel or there would likely have been some kind of altercation at the pumps. That kind of recklessness is inexcusable. I sometimes will use a different runway if I am talking to the other pilots on the field and make it clear I am using the other runway to not interfere with their patterns or to stay out of their way.

I always talk and always expect an answer. I wish the others a safe flight or ask how it was. Open communication is key, especially when there is no way to get out of each other's way. If someone is on the runway I am on final for, I go around. I may mention that it would be nice if they had taxied off faster or something, but I never land with another plane on that runway, even if on a displaced threshold.
 
It appears that non IFR, communication can be a tricky thing and decisions are sometimes luck. I stopped at Mariana FL on a xcty for fuel. After fueling, I taxied to the end of the runway. I looked and the hold short line was very close to the runway, so I hesitated and decided to do my run up on the taxiway. I finished, announced and just before I moved and looked at the runway, as a glider crossed the threshold. I think, OK, he does not have a radio. Then before I moved, I looked again and WOW, a second glider was landing on the grass between me (taxiway) and the runway. He was at about 5ft AGL and still 150ft from me. Good thing I did not automatically go to the hold short line!!. I am convinced that had I taxied to the hold short for the run up, the 2nd glider would have had no options.

In the case of the OP, it is a reminder that even communications when both have radios should be without assumptions. Had the OP begun TO the results could have easily been much different.
 
Mid-Field Crosswinds? Watch Out!

On my field, a mid-field crosswind might result in your plane snagging a parachutist. They use the mid-field area as a landing zone.

On a neighboring field, there's a glider runway just to the north of the paved runway. Not well advertised is that the area in between is often used by gliders or tow planes. The gliders fly a pattern inside the power pattern, as a mid-field crosswind might result in a mid-air with a hard-to-see sailplane.

The tow planes usually are dragging a rope for a couple hundred feet behind them. It's behind and below them if they're in the pattern, so it's not enough to miss the tow plane. You've got to miss the rope too.

Both the tow planes and the jump planes fly steep approaches and circling climb-outs and approaches. Avoiding them is a distinctly three-dimensional matter.

It's not enough to be careful. You've got to be careful.

Dave
Vance Brand Airport, KLMO, Longmont, Colorado
Next to Boulder, Colorado
 
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Awareness and Inquiry

How many instructors teach their students about Instrument approaches that are practiced at their non-tower airport? If a student goes up for his/her first solo and hears "Piper 123 Alpha Bravo is on a Vee-Oh-R ALPHA practice approach to Runway 18" will that student pilot know how (from which direction) the other plane is approaching the airport?

I had to learn this the hard way many hours after my Private Pilot rating, and I haven't forgotten it. And I don't think it's in the current syllabus for students prior to the first solo. When that student pilot goes to another airport on a solo cross-country, will he/she be aware of the practice approaches that may be called out on Unicom at that airport?

As a minimum, the student should be made aware that practice Instrument approaches mean a pilot is often approaching a non-tower airport in a manner quite different than the typical pattern requires. Any pilot on the ground or in the air who does not understand where another aircraft is as it approaches a non-tower airport should not hesitate to inquire where it is and where it's going.
 
N941WR said:
How does a guy who is flying a straight in approach and announcing his intentions know he is the only one on final or about to turn final?

There are a lot of airplanes out there without radios and a log of people flying who accidently tune in the wrong frequency.

A straight in approach could create an issue with anyone of these.

I go out of my way to do a standard 45 degree entry (or cross wind entry) a Cessna speeds just to give myself a chance to see and avoid other aircraft.

Also, the FAA does not consider you in the pattern if you are greater than three miles away from the airport. So someone on five mile final isn't on final at all.
Click to expand...

Bill, I have always believed 3 miles to be the limit for being considered in the pattern. I can't however find a reference for that or any reference for max final length other then a minimum of ? mile. Anyone have a reference for this?
George
 
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