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L-3 New ADS-B is out!

Walt

Walt

Well Known Member
The cats out of the bag and it looks like some pretty cool stuff :D

http://www.l-3lynx.com/features.htm
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/L-3-launches-new-line-of-ADS-B-products-NextGen-GA-Fund-orders-10000-units223548-1.html

models_lg_ngt-9000.jpg


sky2.jpg

sky1.png

display2.png

ADSB_2.png



MSRP: $6,800 *
(this unit is Mode S/ES transponder, ADS-B in receiver, GPS position source and traffic/weather display all in one box!)
Features:
ADS-B Out:
----1090 MHz Mode S ES
ADS-B In:
---- 978 MHz
---- 1090 MHz
Rule Compliant Position Source
Touch Screen Display
MFD Display Interface
Traffic: ADS-B, ADS-R, TIS-B
Weather (FIS-B)
Mode S ES Transponder



models_lg_NGT-2500.png

MSRP: $3,467 *
Features:
ADS-B Out:
----978 MHz UAT
ADS-B In:
----978 MHz UAT
Rule Compliant Position Source
MFD Display Interface
Traffic: ADS-B, ADS-R, TIS-B
Weather (FIS-B)
 
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$6,800 plus installation. I'm still waiting for an affordable solution.

And what about the iPad, is that included or do you have to toss in a bunch more cash for that too?
 
BobTurner said:
It looks....expensive. Any word on street prices?
Click to expand...

Retail prices are listed, "street prices" are not available yet but I should have them soon.

There are a number of different models available, I just copied pics of 2 of the them so you could have a quick look at them. Click on the link in the first post for all the info and options available.
 
I priced out a Garmin package for my C-180, and the Garmin system (using a GTN-650) added a nav-com, which I don't need, and was otherwise roughly similar, for well over $17k list, without installation. It was also three boxes, one for just the ADS-B and another for the remote transponder.

Sure don't need a new nav-com for $10k....

This is favorable by comparison.

Dave
P.S. I have not a clue what I'll end up with on the RV-3B yet.
 
At Oshkosh, the guy at their booth was claiming a $2-3K price for a self-contained UAT with GPS receiver that would have squawk code sync to your existing mode C transponder and wireless data to your iPad/Android tablet for traffic & weather. :confused:

Sounded too good to be true, eh?
Oh well, at least I got a free T-shirt from them.
 
Neal@F14 said:
At Oshkosh, the guy at their booth was claiming a $2-3K price for a self-contained UAT with GPS receiver that would have squawk code sync to your existing mode C transponder and wireless data to your iPad/Android tablet for traffic & weather. :confused:

Sounded too good to be true, eh?
Oh well, at least I got a free T-shirt from them.
Click to expand...

Well he wasn't far off really, this is the basic UAT unit:

models_lg_NGT-2000.png


MSRP: $3,200 *
Features:
ADS-B Out
---978 MHz UAT
ADS-B In
---978 MHz UAT
Rule Compliant Position Source
*Optional WiFi module
*Antennas and installation not included.
 
It's good to see prices trending down - especially with a rules-compliant GPS position source! I still don't like the idea of +$3K prices for somethign that is essentially a tax to be in the airspace - but it is a heck of a lot better for the average owner than forcing them into an IFR GPS to get the position source.

So Walt, ADS-B makes my head hurt with all the options out there (and I am not the only one). Let's reduce this to its simplest component for the masses. Let's say you have NOTHING in the panel now, and you buy their $3500 package - does that make the airplane 2020 compliant? or do you need something else? (excepting antennas, which appear to be extra....)

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
So Walt, ADS-B makes my head hurt with all the options out there (and I am not the only one). Let's reduce this to its simplest component for the masses. Let's say you have NOTHING in the panel now, and you buy their $3500 package - does that make the airplane 2020 compliant? or do you need something else? (excepting antennas, which appear to be extra....)

Paul
Click to expand...

Well first... there is no simple answer on which way is the best way to comply with the 2020 mandate but here are the "basics".

There are 2 ways to meet the 2020 mandate:

1) Mode S/ES transponder with Internal or external GPS position source.

2) UAT with GPS postion source (internal or external), however, this option still requires you to have a Mode C transponder.


The new L-3 unit is the first Mode S/ES transponder to contain a built in GPS as well as an ADS-B reciever so you can get weather and traffic, and it has a panel display built in. List price $6800.

If you look at lets say the Garmin 330ES which sells for around $3600 (discounted price) then add a certified GPS source (3k-15K) and ADS-B receiver (about 1K) you can see how the L-3 unit starts to look pretty attractive. This is especially true if you don't currently have a transponder or have a "vintage" transponder with limited life left. So this option will cost you around $6600 minimum

You could buy a UAT unit for around 3.5K and a new GTX327 for around $1800, this combo meets the 2020 mandate. Cost: about $$5300

Already have an 430/650 waas unit... then just buy the Mode s/ES transponder and you're good to go.

Already have a working Mode C transponder but no GPS and looking for the cheapest option: then buy the UAT for around $3500.
 
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Thanks Walt - those are the kind of questions I get every day - but the landscape changes so rapidly, it is hard fr me to answer. My experience is that most builders/owners/pilots get confused as soon as we talk about Squitters, UAT's, and 978 - they just want to know what they have to buy! Your last post does a great job of describing the answer at this point in time!

Paul
 
Will this box link with an experimental PfD ( GRT,Dynon, G3X) to to provide an IFR eligible approach system, equivalent to the garmin 650 or 750
 
Wow that's some very nice looking stuff and great all in one solutions.

Although I'm excited about bringing all this new technology and safety to my cockpit, I'm in no hurry to race out and buy something today. Just think there will be 5 more Airventures between now and 2020 and who knows how many more solutions will be available.

I think I'd feel a little different if I had a certified airplane as there will definitely be a mad rush towards the end with not enough certified avionics shops to do the installs. Also it'd be different if I was still building.
 
Walt said:
Well he wasn't far off really, this is the basic UAT unit:

MSRP: $3,200 *
Features:
ADS-B Out
---978 MHz UAT
ADS-B In
---978 MHz UAT
Rule Compliant Position Source
*Optional WiFi module
*Antennas and installation not included.
Click to expand...

Problem is, the released product only interfaces directly with a Garmin GTX-327 or -330 transponder. The additional interface module if you have another brand of mode C transponder is an additional $1300 (about the same price as a good used GTX-327), and the price for the optional WiFi module isn't yet published and could be anywhere between a couple hundred to another AMU. That puts their complete solution if you have a non-Garmin mode C transponder somewhere between an estimated $4600-5500... practically double what the original estimates were reported at Oshkosh 2014. Ouch.

Looks like NavWorx still has them beat quite handily in the bang for the buck department for a UAT solution.
 
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Neal@F14 said:
Problem is, the released product only interfaces directly with a Garmin GTX-327 or -330 transponder. The additional interface module if you have another brand of mode C transponder is an additional $1300 (about the same price as a good used GTX-327), and the price for the optional WiFi module isn't yet published and could be anywhere between a couple hundred to another AMU. That puts their complete solution if you have a non-Garmin mode C transponder somewhere between an estimated $4600-5500... practically double what the original estimates were reported at Oshkosh 2014. Ouch.

Looks like NavWorx still has them beat quite handily in the bang for the buck department for a UAT solution.
Click to expand...

You are correct, but don't forget the L-3 prices are retail prices, "street" prices have yet to be determined.
 
Five Years!

Boom3 said it!

Look at your 5 year old cell phone. It's way too early to even be a little concerned about what to put in your plane. I have confidence that Dynon and ForeFlight (or their yet to be born competitors) will have very affordable options for us. At least us experimentors.:)
 
Walt said:
You are correct, but don't forget the L-3 prices are retail prices, "street" prices have yet to be determined.
Click to expand...

It's not a direct comparison of feature to feature, but the new NavWorx ADS600-EXP UAT transceiver targeted at the experimental market is $699 list price.
 
Less expensive ADS-B solution

$6,800 plus installation. I'm still waiting for an affordable solution.

And what about the iPad, is that included or do you have to toss in a bunch more cash for that too?
__________________

Bill,
Go to Navworx and look at what they released yesterday
Tyler
 
Bob and Tyler,
The L3 and Navworx devices aren't just different in features, they are totally different solutions.

The L3 device is a Mode-S transponder. It has a fully 2020 compliant GPS built in. This means that this device is the only thing you need in the plane to be fully compliant.

The Navworx device is a UAT. This means you still need a transponder in the plane. The EXP600 doesn't include a rule compliant GPS, so you will need to buy one of those before 2020. At $699, it's a remote module that needs a control panel or EFIS.

So basically, you need a transponder and a GPS on top of the Navworx, while the L3 is complete, so there is a logical reason they are different in price. Depending on what is in the plane already, either one could win on price for a totally compliant plane.

Not trying to favor one over the other, just trying to educate people looking to become compliant.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics
 
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Jordan1976 said:
Bob and Tyler,
The L3 and Navworx devices aren't just different in features, they are totally different solutions.

The L3 device is a Mode-S transponder. It has a fully 2020 compliant GPS built in. This means that this device is the only thing you need in the plane to be fully compliant. Walt has mentioned that the remote module without control panel is $3,467 MSRP, and a lower street price.

The Navworx device is a UAT. This means you still need a transponder in the plane. The EXP600 doesn't include a rule compliant GPS, so you will need to buy one of those before 2020. At $699, it's a remote module that needs a control panel like the L3 at $3,467.

So basically, you need a transponder and a GPS on top of the Navworx, while the L3 is complete, so there is a logical reason they are different in price. Depending on what is in the plane already, either one could win on price for a totally compliant plane.

Not trying to favor one over the other, just trying to educate people looking to become compliant.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics
Click to expand...

That's why I put the caveat that did.

However, many already have a transponder that will work and NavWorx has a migration strategy for a compliant GPS solution available next year. I don't have a stake in this than other than being a happy user of their TSO approved ADS-600B transceiver. For those that are strictly concerned about price, it should be plug and play with their existing transponders. It will work with most EFIS vendors and WingX on ipads or tablets.
 
rleffler said:
It's not a direct comparison of feature to feature, but the new NavWorx ADS600-EXP UAT transceiver targeted at the experimental market is $699 list price.
Click to expand...

This one has got my attention real fast. The $699 looks like it's probably an introductory pre-release price. They've updated their website today to show that its normal price will be $799, so a hundred dollars discount if you want to chance being an early adopter.

One of these coupled to my Nexus 7 running iFlyGPS might be just the thing to fit my meager budget.
 
Just to clarify a little:

L-3 is offering 2 ADS-B solutions which are: UAT box with internal certified GPS, and a 1090ES all in one box solution:

The NGT 1000-2500 series are UAT boxes with certifed internal GPS, these still require you to have a seperate Mode C transponder, retail prices range from $3200-$3400 (the NGT-1000 which is the lowest cost unit still does not have a price listed).

The NGT-9000 series is a 2020 compliant all in one box solution. This includes a modes S/ES transponder, certified GPS position source, ADS-B recvr and panel display for both weather/traffic, all in a single panel mount unit. The base unit retails at $6800.
 
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One question in my mind - will a display capable of showing ADSB-IN data even be required?

With the mention of the ipad above, and some disussion in another thread about this technology forcing VFR pilots to be "heads-down", this all leaves me a little unsure of whether display is required or a nice to have item....
 
sthopkins said:
One question in my mind - will a display capable of showing ADSB-IN data even be required?

With the mention of the ipad above, and some disussion in another thread about this technology forcing VFR pilots to be "heads-down", this all leaves me a little unsure of whether display is required or a nice to have item....
Click to expand...

ADSB-in is not required. For cross country trips, the weather is a nice to have feature, though. Also seeing the TFRs that seem to spring up everywhere.
 
From Navworx web site:
========
Disclaimers;(1) The ADS600-EXP meets the ADS-B Final Rule Technical Amendment, dated 2/9/2015, affecting 14 CFR 91.225 (b)(1)(ii) which permits ADS-B OUT in the NAS with devices that meet the performance requirements of TSO-C154c: (2) B. NavWorx reserves the right to change pricing and specifications at any time. (3) C. Offer is contingent on FAA not changing ADS-B rule to the detriment of the product.
=========

It appears to me that this box is taking advantage of the new rule change:
NavWorx is saying that it does meet the performance specs, but that it does not actually carry TSO approval.

Is that how others read this?

Agree with other comments, you still need a position source ($$), and a remote controller to get the squawk code and altitude info.
 
BobTurner said:
From Navworx web site:
========
Disclaimers;(1) The ADS600-EXP meets the ADS-B Final Rule Technical Amendment, dated 2/9/2015, affecting 14 CFR 91.225 (b)(1)(ii) which permits ADS-B OUT in the NAS with devices that meet the performance requirements of TSO-C154c: (2) B. NavWorx reserves the right to change pricing and specifications at any time. (3) C. Offer is contingent on FAA not changing ADS-B rule to the detriment of the product.
=========

It appears to me that this box is taking advantage of the new rule change:
NavWorx is saying that it does meet the performance specs, but that it does not actually carry TSO approval.

Is that how others read this?

Agree with other comments, you still need a position source ($$), and a remote controller to get the squawk code and altitude info.
Click to expand...

Their EXP box looks to have the GPS position source built in. The transponder interface ($169) is just a small gizmo that clamps around your transponder's antenna coax cable and reads the squawk code and mode C altitude code being transmitted via RF. The total price for the package ranges from $980 to $1355 depending on which antennas you choose. Also for another $89 you can add on a 1090ES receiver.
 
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Neal@F14 said:
Their EXP box looks to have the GPS position source built in. The transponder interface ($169) is just a small gizmo that clamps around your transponder's antenna coax cable and reads the squawk code and mode C altitude code being transmitted via RF. The total price for the package ranges from $980 to $1355 depending on which antennas you choose. Also for another $89 you can add on a 1090ES receiver.
Click to expand...

Depending on the brand/model of your transponder, you may only need to wire a serial circuit to it, which will save you the $169.

This probably needs to be moved to it's own thread.
 
Neal@F14 said:
Their EXP box looks to have the GPS position source built in. The transponder interface ($169) is just a small gizmo that clamps around your transponder's antenna coax cable and reads the squawk code and mode C altitude code being transmitted via RF. The total price for the package ranges from $980 to $1355 depending on which antennas you choose. Also for another $89 you can add on a 1090ES receiver.
Click to expand...

Wishfull thinking... the Navworx EXP box does not have a built in GPS, its merely a UAT box, thats it.

Edit: I'm confused, not sure what this unit has now!
 
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This (600-EXP) just does not pass the 'sniff test'.
For one thing, as previously discussed, there are no differences for ADSB between E-AB and normally certified aircraft. Yet this product is only for EAB?
Read the ad carefully. It says "transmits SIL = 3". It doesn't say the gps actually meets the spec. I think they have used an incredibly liberal interpretation of the rules clarification by transmitting the required signal with no proof that it actually meets the spec. If I'm correct then the FAA will never let that stand. Note the disclaimer about FAA changes.
 
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I think what he is saying, with the new wording out from the FAA the other day in reference to "meeting the performance requirement" vs being actually TSO'd.

So Bill is saying that it meets the performance requirements of the TSO, but doesn't have the paperwork prove it.

This should be interesting!
 
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I wanna know whos gonna be the responsible party when the FAA comes knocking and says "based on our tracking of you, your ADBS widget doesn't meet the TSO spec" and you say "but the mfg says it does!"

Take a guess what the answer will be.:(
 
Didn't we see in the thread last year that some TSO'd units did not pass with flying colors either? I doubt the FAA will come after anybody until forced by an accident.

I applaud L-3 for getting into the fray. Their UAT is comensurate with Navworks TSO'd ADS600-BG in functionality and price.
 
Walt,

Are the new L-3 units TSO'd?

The brochure doesn't use that word, and I didn't see it on the web site. Since these were announced immediately after the FAA clarified their position that the actual TSO isn't a requirement as long as the units meet the TSO'd requirements, I suspect that these aren't.

Can one be installed in a certified airplane and be 2020 legal?

Dave
 
What's the significance of approved pairing we read of in other ADS-B threads as it might apply to L3's offering? TSO'd or not, the Feds have created an approval hurdle that doesn't directly reference performance requirements. I'm therefore very much suspicious of any "solution" comprised of "compliant" GPS source and transponder that isn't FAA approved or that the manufacturer claims "meets" the TSO and stops short of demonstrated compliance, which also drags the airframe and installation into the fray for certified ships.

Beware of weasel-wording. There are a few more years to wait this thing out.

While we're sifting through "solutions", I do hope manufacturers and buyers recognize that a tiny touchy touch screen needs smooth air and a magnifying glass so we can look outwards at least half the time we would have if there weren't this "solution" to squint at, or a consumer-grade iPad thingy that has its own cockpit environment problems.

John Siebold
 
I believe the TSO is pending. They will get it if they don't already have it. L-3 is not new to the TSO process for any of these functions or development process'.

"The 2000-series products are TSO-approved and shipping, while the NGT-9000 products have been submitted for TSO approval. L-3 expects TSO approval this spring."
 
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David Paule said:
Walt,

Are the new L-3 units TSO'd?

The brochure doesn't use that word, and I didn't see it on the web site. Since these were announced immediately after the FAA clarified their position that the actual TSO isn't a requirement as long as the units meet the TSO'd requirements, I suspect that these aren't.

Can one be installed in a certified airplane and be 2020 legal?

Dave
Click to expand...

Yes all the L-3 systems are/will be TSO'd.

(I think Mike beat me to it!)
 
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