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  #11  
Old 02-01-2021, 02:34 PM
printbr printbr is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuhtenia View Post
Additional background, per Van's (from http://www.flyrv12.com/slsa-ifr-operation-and-training/):

"Operating IFR vs. Operating in IMC - The RV-12iST SLSA is a great platform for meeting both the long cross country requirements and shorter, skills-based instructional flying. Filing IFR and operating/training in the IFR “system” is perfectly fine and is allowed if the airplane is properly equipped and the crew meets the training/certification requirements. By operating under IFR, you are simply participating in the ATC system under the established instrument flight rules. Doing so does not necessarily imply that you are flying the airplane in the clouds.

The current regulations preclude entering actual Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) in any SLSA airplane. While the FAA does not directly/specifically object to it, the ASTM committee’s LSA standard states that the aircraft must be placarded including a statement that flight into IMC is not allowed (but notably makes no exclusions on IFR operations – or operating “in the system” with air traffic control). Because the FAA accepts and adopts the ASTM SLSA rules as written, this becomes a regulatory issue. Conversations between Van’s staff and the FAA this year have confirmed that these restrictions “live” completely in the LSA standard, and that no such restrictions are found directly within the FAA regs. In other words, it is up to the ASTM committee that governs the SLSA standard (called “ASTM F37”) to determine and dictate what is allowed and what is not."
That placard and limitation only applies to SLSA aircraft. The placard and limitation is not required for E-LSA aircraft.
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Richland, WA
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RV-12 Flying
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2021, 03:17 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,184
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I notice the wording is different than my 2011 EAB op limits, specifically, the use of the words ‘....compliant with the performance requirements....’
Is this an opening for the use of non-TSO’d gps units under ifr?
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  #13  
Old 02-01-2021, 08:49 PM
bsbarnes10 bsbarnes10 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Texas
Posts: 30
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Mel, I have a question for you about the process for issuing airworthiness certificates and operating limits. You mentioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
E-LSA aircraft MAY be flown IFR. The following paragraph is included in the operating limitations for E-LSA:

20. Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in §91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: Date, work performed, and name and certificate number of the person returning the aircraft to service. (49)
Where does that language come from? I'm inferring from your post that there are some generic operating limits for E-LSA (and I'd assume E-AB, E-Exhibition, etc.) which makes sense, I assume DARs like yourself don't just make up the operating limitations for each aircraft on the spot, there must be some bank of "standard" op limits that you pull from? Do you get guidance from the FAA based on the type of airworthiness certificate? Where can lay-folk like myself see them so I know what my DAR / FAA rep is working from?

Thanks to Mel for your response and to everyone else as well. This is my first time through the process (it won't be the last :-) so it's been helpful to hear how others dealt with it and what to expect...

-Bruce
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  #14  
Old 02-02-2021, 07:49 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,920
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Operating limitations come from FAA Order 8130.2J Appendix D.

This Order is our Bible for issuing Airworthiness Certificates.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #15  
Old 02-02-2021, 11:46 AM
bsbarnes10 bsbarnes10 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Texas
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Mel, this is great information. It is exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you!

-Bruce
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  #16  
Old 02-04-2021, 09:33 AM
Jakmart Jakmart is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Grayslake
Posts: 6
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Page 163/197 of FAA Order 8130.2J - Table D-1. Operating Limitations
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Donation to Delta Romeo, LLC
Completed Aug 20, 2020
RV12iS Start Milestone Jan 2019 - EAA Sheet Metal Class during the Polar Vortex weather event.
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2021, 12:15 PM
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Bill_H Bill_H is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Marshall TX (KASL)
Posts: 1,787
Default ELSA not EAB

If you CAN register ELSA, then do so for this reason.
You, or any subsequent buyer can sign off on the annual inspection by taking a weekend course. EAB, that must forever be signed off by an A&P.
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Bill H, RV12, N412BR "Sweetie", Skyview-equipped, KASL Marshall TX
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2021, 06:36 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,920
Default Not quite.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_H View Post
If you CAN register ELSA, then do so for this reason.
You, or any subsequent buyer can sign off on the annual inspection by taking a weekend course. EAB, that must forever be signed off by an A&P.
EAB condition inspection may be signed off by the person holding the repairman certificate for that aircraft regardless of who owns it.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2021, 08:46 PM
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jrtens jrtens is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Utah
Posts: 142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsbarnes10 View Post

Essentially I want to be sure that as a PPL, I will be able to operate my RV-12iS under IFR rules and in IMC.

-Bruce
If you are going to fly IMC, I hope you will have dual screens, a secondary ADAHRS and a heated pitot.
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12iS SLSA #5
Salt Lake Int'l
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