Van's Air Force
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RV-6A Pre Buy Bolt Problems
- Thread starter quinnjim
- Start date
FlyinTiger
Well Known Member
It can be fixed
That is more than just "close to the edge." What a testament to the strength of a Vans design that it held up in flight.
Of course it is the best course of action to call a specialist at Vans, take more pictures, follow Vans' technical advice. Ask about the part numbers that would need to be replaced looking at that set of plans. Get their cost and cost of shipping from Vans if you are unable to make the part from the correct stock.
With Van's permission maybe it can be as simple as drilling another hole with plenty of edge distance where there is room and adding another bolt. That would be my first question when calling them, showing Vans the pictures and talking about options.
If you can do the work yourself labor will be minimal. Maybe the original builder would be willing to help fix it if humbling himself and joining in the process with all of his tools (if he still has them) is a possibility.
1. Using that set of preview plans take a look at what is involved. Confirm all other edge distances are acceptable.
2. If possible get an experienced RV builder involved. If there's additional issued back there they will be noticable to someone who has built this part of the aircraft and has trained eyes to catch other issues back there.
3. Likely removing the vertical stab and horizontal stab is going to be required.
4. Get a new part or make this piece from the correct stock. Set up the incidence and drill as if installing this bracket for the first time.
5. An experienced builder with all the tools required will probably take a couple days to complete everything required to make this right. Maybe less...but I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to this repair than immediately meets the eye.
6. While this is apart make sure all Vans Service Bulletins are complied with and there's no other surprises to fix.
After you complete the repair have a trained set of eyes that wasn't involved inspect it to be 100% sure you didn't miss anything.
That is more than just "close to the edge." What a testament to the strength of a Vans design that it held up in flight.
Of course it is the best course of action to call a specialist at Vans, take more pictures, follow Vans' technical advice. Ask about the part numbers that would need to be replaced looking at that set of plans. Get their cost and cost of shipping from Vans if you are unable to make the part from the correct stock.
With Van's permission maybe it can be as simple as drilling another hole with plenty of edge distance where there is room and adding another bolt. That would be my first question when calling them, showing Vans the pictures and talking about options.
If you can do the work yourself labor will be minimal. Maybe the original builder would be willing to help fix it if humbling himself and joining in the process with all of his tools (if he still has them) is a possibility.
1. Using that set of preview plans take a look at what is involved. Confirm all other edge distances are acceptable.
2. If possible get an experienced RV builder involved. If there's additional issued back there they will be noticable to someone who has built this part of the aircraft and has trained eyes to catch other issues back there.
3. Likely removing the vertical stab and horizontal stab is going to be required.
4. Get a new part or make this piece from the correct stock. Set up the incidence and drill as if installing this bracket for the first time.
5. An experienced builder with all the tools required will probably take a couple days to complete everything required to make this right. Maybe less...but I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to this repair than immediately meets the eye.
6. While this is apart make sure all Vans Service Bulletins are complied with and there's no other surprises to fix.
After you complete the repair have a trained set of eyes that wasn't involved inspect it to be 100% sure you didn't miss anything.
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Stevea
Well Known Member
Yikes!! Most definitely not enough edge distance on those two bolts. No idea on what it would cost to fix. Maybe Van's can give you a guess on hours required to fix it.
One other place to check for critical edge distance is the wing rear spar attach bolt. This is another place where the tolerance zone for locating the bolt hole center is rather small...........not much room for error before edge distance is a problem.
Good luck on the rest of the pre-buy inspection.
One other place to check for critical edge distance is the wing rear spar attach bolt. This is another place where the tolerance zone for locating the bolt hole center is rather small...........not much room for error before edge distance is a problem.
Good luck on the rest of the pre-buy inspection.
FireMedic_2009
Well Known Member
$5000 cost to fix is extreme
I agree with the post stating a couple days. Not much expense for the parts, maybe $100. Even if it takes 3 days, $5000??? I don’t think so, Homey don’t play that
I agree with the post stating a couple days. Not much expense for the parts, maybe $100. Even if it takes 3 days, $5000??? I don’t think so, Homey don’t play that
bpattonsoa
Well Known Member
Simple, If you don’t own it, Run away from that airplane as fast as you can go!
Look at the nut on the pushrod, way too many threads, is it an AN or hardware store? Edit. Oops, stand corrected, see later posts. First line still stands
If you do, find the best DAR with a ton of RV experience and have him remove every inspection plate, cover, and look at everything in the ship including inside the wings stab with a scope. Pay him the $5,000.
That has to be the scariest picture I have seen on this forum.
Look at the nut on the pushrod, way too many threads, is it an AN or hardware store? Edit. Oops, stand corrected, see later posts. First line still stands
If you do, find the best DAR with a ton of RV experience and have him remove every inspection plate, cover, and look at everything in the ship including inside the wings stab with a scope. Pay him the $5,000.
That has to be the scariest picture I have seen on this forum.
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FireMedic_2009
Well Known Member
Possible simple fix
Ask Van’s if this would suffice, see pic. Because the corner bolt is so close to the edge of the longeron Van’s may have you also add an angle bracket behind the angle bracket you are repairing to re-enforce the longeron by putting a bolt through the longeron and the angle bracket you are repairing. You will have to add a shim/spacer between the L bracket and the longeron
Ask Van’s if this would suffice, see pic. Because the corner bolt is so close to the edge of the longeron Van’s may have you also add an angle bracket behind the angle bracket you are repairing to re-enforce the longeron by putting a bolt through the longeron and the angle bracket you are repairing. You will have to add a shim/spacer between the L bracket and the longeron
Attachments
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The fix I saw Van’s OK before on an RV-8 is to add a doubler plate below bolted into the longrons as Daren showed (with a spacer so the doubler is flat) just instead of an angle fill in the entire area.
Material cost < 10$. About a day or two worth of work as you have to take off the elevator. So if you do it yourself cost is 10$.
I would worry though about what else is wrong. Overlooking the edge distance on those bolts is pretty mayor ... .
Oliver
Material cost < 10$. About a day or two worth of work as you have to take off the elevator. So if you do it yourself cost is 10$.
I would worry though about what else is wrong. Overlooking the edge distance on those bolts is pretty mayor ... .
Oliver
BillL
Well Known Member
This is funny . . .
Isn't that the end of the mirror shaft?
But I have to admit, you had me going.
Isn't that the end of the mirror shaft?
But I have to admit, you had me going.
FlyinTiger
Well Known Member
LOL - mirror handle?
I think that "pushrod" is the handle on the mirror used to look at the bracket in question.
Normally, during a prebuy the contract to buy is contingent upon the aircraft being completely issue free and ready to fly.
Negotiate a better price on the plane with a full list of discrepancies.
Option A: The seller can choose to fix them all to your satisfaction himself.
OR
Option B: Lower the price based on estimates you get to fix all these things with the mechanic of your choice.
Sale would be contingent on an agreement to A or B. Likely this happens with every aircraft purchase. Sometimes the seller is not interested and won't negotiate, hoping for an emotional buyer to come along or they feel they've already lowered the price to account for work that needs to be done.
I think that "pushrod" is the handle on the mirror used to look at the bracket in question.
Normally, during a prebuy the contract to buy is contingent upon the aircraft being completely issue free and ready to fly.
Negotiate a better price on the plane with a full list of discrepancies.
Option A: The seller can choose to fix them all to your satisfaction himself.
OR
Option B: Lower the price based on estimates you get to fix all these things with the mechanic of your choice.
Sale would be contingent on an agreement to A or B. Likely this happens with every aircraft purchase. Sometimes the seller is not interested and won't negotiate, hoping for an emotional buyer to come along or they feel they've already lowered the price to account for work that needs to be done.
The seller seems to be really angry about the pre buy. He doesn't want to move forward since there is a problem with the plane. I don't think he realizes that it IS a serious problem.
Earl Findlay
Active Member
I just did a repair for nearly this exact problem. It was not nearly as bad as I thought it might be, using the proper tools. I’d estimate 12-15 hours of work and $35 of parts. Don’t let this stop the purchase, but do give a good look around the aircraft to confirm there are not other such problems.
FlyinTiger
Well Known Member
Vans?
Did Vans chime in yet on what they thought? It would still be interesting to hear what they have to say regarding the fix...I'm sure this isn't the only one with this problem.
Posting here helps others that are doing prebuys and running into similar issues.
Did Vans chime in yet on what they thought? It would still be interesting to hear what they have to say regarding the fix...I'm sure this isn't the only one with this problem.
Posting here helps others that are doing prebuys and running into similar issues.
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
Unfortunately people get worked up about money. Selling an airplane is big money and a discount of a few thousand dollars more ($2K-5K, maybe, depending...) may make him upside down on the airplane, or now he can't pay cash for the new boat, or whatever.
But that doesn't change facts. The airplane has a serious problem that needs to be corrected. Out of good faith, he HAS to disclose it to the next prospective buyer or he has a lot of liability.
Whatever deal he ultimately reaches to sell the airplane, he's gonna need to fix it or factor the cost of a repair into the price of the airplane. So if he walks away now, he's acting on emotion, not logic.
fl-mike
Well Known Member
$5k? You got the “I don’t want to do the job” price.
That is fixable, like others said, with a gusset doubler and Vans blessing. I would propose to put the gusset on the top in place of the spacer.
There are a LOT of RVs flying with mis-drilled holes in that area. A real trouble spot.
I’ll do the ljob for the low, low price of $4500, if you act now! LOL
Looks like it might be a quicker build fuselage? (There is nothing “quick” about building an airplane)
That is fixable, like others said, with a gusset doubler and Vans blessing. I would propose to put the gusset on the top in place of the spacer.
There are a LOT of RVs flying with mis-drilled holes in that area. A real trouble spot.
I’ll do the ljob for the low, low price of $4500, if you act now! LOL
Looks like it might be a quicker build fuselage? (There is nothing “quick” about building an airplane)
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blaplante
Well Known Member
dealt with similar problem
I've dealt with a similar problem. In that case the transverse angle edge distance was violated - as it is here by the inner bolt. What I didn't have to deal with was the longeron, which looks to be violated as well.
To properly fix the transverse angle required removing that part and replacing it with a slightly larger angle. [Van's preferred option in the case I was working] Such as going from a 1x1 angle to a 1.25 x 1.25. The problem is that this is a really awful place to get tools into. You can get a flashlight on it, or your hand, or be able to see. PICK ONE! Crawling into the tailcone is no better, probably worse. Fortunately the necessary rivets to remove are all universal head and so a self centering rivet drill/remover works well blind. It didn't actually take even 2 days to do the job, but that doesn't include pulling the empennage.
And, I repeat, I didn't have a longeron issue.
$5000? Yeah, that's the "I don't want to deal with this" price. At least partly because the guy looked at the longeron edge distance and wants nothing to do with it.
Regarding the seller's attitude... I agree with others. Walk.
I've dealt with a similar problem. In that case the transverse angle edge distance was violated - as it is here by the inner bolt. What I didn't have to deal with was the longeron, which looks to be violated as well.
To properly fix the transverse angle required removing that part and replacing it with a slightly larger angle. [Van's preferred option in the case I was working] Such as going from a 1x1 angle to a 1.25 x 1.25. The problem is that this is a really awful place to get tools into. You can get a flashlight on it, or your hand, or be able to see. PICK ONE! Crawling into the tailcone is no better, probably worse. Fortunately the necessary rivets to remove are all universal head and so a self centering rivet drill/remover works well blind. It didn't actually take even 2 days to do the job, but that doesn't include pulling the empennage.
And, I repeat, I didn't have a longeron issue.
$5000? Yeah, that's the "I don't want to deal with this" price. At least partly because the guy looked at the longeron edge distance and wants nothing to do with it.
Regarding the seller's attitude... I agree with others. Walk.
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blaplante
Well Known Member
second thought
I'm not sure we should be protecting the N number. If we are to reduce the EAB accident rate we need to ground unsafe aircraft. If for no other reason ... to control our insurance rates. Harsh? yes. Justified? Happy to hear your argument on allowing an unsafe plane to get sold to someone else who didn't catch this.
I'm not sure we should be protecting the N number. If we are to reduce the EAB accident rate we need to ground unsafe aircraft. If for no other reason ... to control our insurance rates. Harsh? yes. Justified? Happy to hear your argument on allowing an unsafe plane to get sold to someone else who didn't catch this.
tack rivet
Those double rivets look like an AN 426AD-3-x that goes thru the skin, longeron, and rib flange next to an NAS1097AD-3-x shear head (reduced head diameter, oops) tack rivet that goes thru the longeron and rib flange. The tack rivets hold the fuselage skeleton together in the jig during the upside-down-canoe stage of fuselage building before pre-punched skins and substructure were introduced.
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Those double rivets look like an AN 426AD-3-x that goes thru the skin, longeron, and rib flange next to an NAS1097AD-3-x shear head (reduced head diameter, oops) tack rivet that goes thru the longeron and rib flange. The tack rivets hold the fuselage skeleton together in the jig during the upside-down-canoe stage of fuselage building before pre-punched skins and substructure were introduced.
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Attachments
My 6A kit that was already started had this situation and have seen it on several 6's. It is one of the more common mistakes on a 6. PM me for a phone number and I can share my approach for addressing it. It took 2-3 days to rectify, but definitely not a $5000 job.
Larry
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