Van's Air Force
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Moeller Fuel Gauge Now Standard Equipment
- Thread starter Mitch757
- Start date
Hope they didn't deviate from the approved JB drawing. 
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=461056&postcount=5
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=461056&postcount=5
f1rocket
Well Known Member
Interesting. I am working on my fuel tank right now and it did not come with the mechanical fuel gauge. Rather it has a fuel level sender built into the side of the tank I presume to send fuel level to the Dynon.
And yes, it still has the sight glass installed.
Wonder if this is some sort of option or something. When did you order your finish kit? Mine was shipped in June.
And yes, it still has the sight glass installed.
Wonder if this is some sort of option or something. When did you order your finish kit? Mine was shipped in June.
Geico266
Well Known Member
Hope they didn't deviate from the approved JB drawing.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=461056&postcount=5
Man, that brought back memories! I think John used crayons.
Moeller Fuel Gauge Info
I ordered my finish kit a couple months ago and it arrived yesterday, 8/15/13. The location of the gauge is very close to JB's....6" aft of forward edge and 7" in from left edge of tank.
Additionally, the original sight gauge was there but had been covered with aluminum plate on the inside and sealed with proseal.
I can forward photos to anyone wishing to have a look, but can't seem to add them to this post.
Mitch Garner
I ordered my finish kit a couple months ago and it arrived yesterday, 8/15/13. The location of the gauge is very close to JB's....6" aft of forward edge and 7" in from left edge of tank.
Additionally, the original sight gauge was there but had been covered with aluminum plate on the inside and sealed with proseal.
I can forward photos to anyone wishing to have a look, but can't seem to add them to this post.
Mitch Garner
Nice round figures, and just different enough to avoid having to pay JB royalties for copying his design.
LittleJoeA
Well Known Member
That's good news. I hope Van's will produce a kit or at least a list of parts to order for those of us who have an older kit but have not assembled the tank yet.
Gagarin737
Well Known Member
Pictures received from Mitch
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E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
Great news!
This is another example of Van's listening to the customers and responding to the desire of many kit builders to improve an already outstanding product (RV-12). Thanks to all of the decision makers at Van's. I appreciate this very much.
This is another example of Van's listening to the customers and responding to the desire of many kit builders to improve an already outstanding product (RV-12). Thanks to all of the decision makers at Van's. I appreciate this very much.
Geico266
Well Known Member
This is another example of Van's listening to the customers and responding to the desire of many kit builders to improve an already outstanding product (RV-12). Thanks to all of the decision makers at Van's. I appreciate this very much.
+1
It is a great mod. Now if we can get them to adopt the Bender Baffel for cold country oops.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Looks like a huge improvement over the sight glass. I use a length of nylon instrument line to sound the tank during preflight. I marked it during calibration of the Dynon unit. Works great, and it's always best to have an actual fuel level determination not subject to mechanical failure (e.g. float linkage sticking).
bhassel
Well Known Member
+1
It is a great mod. Now if we can get them to adopt the Bender Baffel for cold country oops.
And the rivet based AOA (or other solution)! Then there'd be no major mods but parking brake and the stab tips!
Bob
skydiverlv
Well Known Member
Then there'd be no major mods but parking brake and the stab tips!
Bob
You forgot the split rear bulkhead for tail area access!
Fuel gauge
Hi guys, have a question, how did you cut the hole to install the fuel gauge. What method is used to cut the hole out without causing an explosion, our tank has been used for a year and we are going to install the float gauge during the condition inspection and I guess we will order it from Vans, I have heard there is a retro kit on the way and maybe a seal kit for the canopy? Don
Hi guys, have a question, how did you cut the hole to install the fuel gauge. What method is used to cut the hole out without causing an explosion, our tank has been used for a year and we are going to install the float gauge during the condition inspection and I guess we will order it from Vans, I have heard there is a retro kit on the way and maybe a seal kit for the canopy? Don
engineerofsorts
Well Known Member
Wondering about the "official" installation method myself
I did a homebrew installation per the crayola instructions, using a .060" backing plate with nutplates as I recall--from the photos, it doesn't appear that it is pre-drilled for nutplates. I'm wondering what the mounting scheme will be.
I did a homebrew installation per the crayola instructions, using a .060" backing plate with nutplates as I recall--from the photos, it doesn't appear that it is pre-drilled for nutplates. I'm wondering what the mounting scheme will be.
Geico266
Well Known Member
DON LEWIS - -
to answer your question, I drained the tank, then run an air hose inside for 10 minutes blasting lots of air in. I then removed the top to do it. Likely could be done by removing the present fuel sender large plate on front, and cutiing the hole. Just have to clean up chips well before putting back together. I'm guessing the retro kit will have you do it that way. Remember, lots of air will dry it out.
to answer your question, I drained the tank, then run an air hose inside for 10 minutes blasting lots of air in. I then removed the top to do it. Likely could be done by removing the present fuel sender large plate on front, and cutiing the hole. Just have to clean up chips well before putting back together. I'm guessing the retro kit will have you do it that way. Remember, lots of air will dry it out.
Bill_H
Well Known Member
Hmmmm - as a retrofit you can take off the sender plate. Reaching inside you could hold a flat block of hardwood up against the top and drill into it using a hole saw. (Precut the pilot hole.) That would make a clean hole cut without a lot of chips getting in. If the hole saw size is not right, cut slightly small and enlarge with a dremel sanding cylinder. For drilling the nut plate holes you can then reach inside with a hand towel with tape around the perimeter and attach it so that the towel catches any falling chips.
Retrofit
Order a new T-1209 Res Sender Plate from Van's. This is the tank front cover plate. It has the same hole and nutplate riveting as the Moeller gauge and you can trim the T-1209 to act as the backing plate for the Moeller gauge.
Locate the Bender drawing and use a plastic cup to duct tape to the underside of the tank top to catch the chips (thanks, Hal, for this idea).
Use the backing plate made from the T-1209 as a template to match drill the screw holes and mark the hole for the gauge:
Then cut the hole using the big HF step drill and enlarge it slightly to fit the gauge, the cup catches the chips but clean the tank throughly anyway:
Fit the backing plate and gauge, I did not use the gasket but sealed the Moeller in with proseal just as the plans show for fitting the Res Sender on the front cover:
Clean everything up and reinstall the front cover (use outside star washers on the screws) and job done.
Of course, you can wait for the retrofit kit as Mitch says he used.
Tony
Order a new T-1209 Res Sender Plate from Van's. This is the tank front cover plate. It has the same hole and nutplate riveting as the Moeller gauge and you can trim the T-1209 to act as the backing plate for the Moeller gauge.
Locate the Bender drawing and use a plastic cup to duct tape to the underside of the tank top to catch the chips (thanks, Hal, for this idea).
Use the backing plate made from the T-1209 as a template to match drill the screw holes and mark the hole for the gauge:
Then cut the hole using the big HF step drill and enlarge it slightly to fit the gauge, the cup catches the chips but clean the tank throughly anyway:
Fit the backing plate and gauge, I did not use the gasket but sealed the Moeller in with proseal just as the plans show for fitting the Res Sender on the front cover:
Clean everything up and reinstall the front cover (use outside star washers on the screws) and job done.
Of course, you can wait for the retrofit kit as Mitch says he used.
Tony
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Gagarin737
Well Known Member
Nice writeup Tony!
Received another picture from Mitch:
Received another picture from Mitch:
LittleJoeA
Well Known Member
Note that the date on the drawing is 04/16/13 for revision 5. It is not yet listed on the Van's list of revisions. Well I have been putting off building the fuel tank, I guess for good reason.
I did the same.
E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
Hope that
By the time that I get there, the 'old' sender plate and the fuel level viewing holes have been removed from the kit fuel tank sides.
I'm not an aero engineer but a doubler inside of the top of the tank by the new fuel gauge is a great idea and is called for in my opinion. So, make one and install it before first flight and after the DAR signs off your new aircraft. No problem!
By the time that I get there, the 'old' sender plate and the fuel level viewing holes have been removed from the kit fuel tank sides.
I'm not an aero engineer but a doubler inside of the top of the tank by the new fuel gauge is a great idea and is called for in my opinion. So, make one and install it before first flight and after the DAR signs off your new aircraft. No problem!
f1rocket
Well Known Member
Someone help me out because I'm not putting one and one together. Why is this gauge needed and why is it desirable? I'm not seeing it.
I assume (because I don't have the avionics yet) that the Dynon has both a fuel level indicator and a fuel totalizer function. So I fill the tank, reset the totalizer, and visually confirm in the site glass the fuel level.
The other RV's don't have a mechanical gauge, why do we need/want one in the -12? Thanks.
I assume (because I don't have the avionics yet) that the Dynon has both a fuel level indicator and a fuel totalizer function. So I fill the tank, reset the totalizer, and visually confirm in the site glass the fuel level.
The other RV's don't have a mechanical gauge, why do we need/want one in the -12? Thanks.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
My main reason for adding it was to be able to see the fuel level when filling the tank, and know when it is getting near the top. You can see it thru the rear window.
While flying you can see it over your shoulder and it provides a redundant reading to the Skyview level.
While flying you can see it over your shoulder and it provides a redundant reading to the Skyview level.
Jetguy
Well Known Member
In the beginning the site gauge sounded like a good idea. But in actual use it doesn't work very well. Sitting in the pilot seat looking over your shoulder you can not see where the fuel level would be especially if you run premium auto fuel which is clear.
Even 100LL is hard to see. However the moeller fuel gauge is very easy to see.Advantages of moeller gauge on stock RV12 setup.
1. If Skyview goes black simply check moeller gauge for fuel quantity in flight.
2. When fueling airplane to full tank watch moeller gauge through rear window to know when approaching full so not to over flow on to rear window.
3. When heading out for quick fun flight provides instant verification of fuel quantity.
4. Now that RV12 pilots have provided endless feed back to Van's they have come full circle and have eliminated the site gauge and provide the moeller gauge with their standard kit.
In the beginning the site gauge sounded like a good idea. But in actual use it doesn't work very well. Sitting in the pilot seat looking over your shoulder you can not see where the fuel level would be especially if you run premium auto fuel which is clear.
After all this time, I guess a lot of people still don't have an understanding of what the sight gauge was originally designed for.
When doing a pre-flight on any aircraft, it is standard practice to visually confirm the fuel level and compare it to the fuel gauge reading. That is all the sight gauge was intended for.
We fly other aircraft without having a second fuel gauge to look at. Not being able to view the original in flight should not be considered a negative point.
The Moeller gauge has now been added as standard because it is helpful during fueling if you only want to partially fill the tank, and to provide warning when you are getting near full. And because customers said they wanted it.
In actuality, during the original design process, I searched for a mechanical gauge but for some reason at that time, I never found the availability of one that would work with the tank size we have. Fortunately someone else did (John B?).
I like the Moeller gage, and consider it a useful aid during the fueling process ---- BUT, ---- not enough to drain the tank, remove it, open it up, and go through the cutting, drilling, sealing, pressure testing, reinstallation process.
After running an estimated 325 gallons of fuel through N737G, I just don't think it's any big deal. If my wife is around, she gives me a heads-up on the quantity. When I'm by myself - like yesterday - I've got the whole process pretty much down pat, and can run it right up to almost full without any problem, and then squeeze in the little extra to top it off (which the auto gas stations tell you not to do) by just listening at the filler port. I've got the gurgle sound figured out too.
I'm dubious as to the value of checking in-flight. If you have a quantity problem, and it's not going through the engine, then there must be a big leak somewhere. With the tank right behind you, and the lines right under you, I'm a thinking there would be something to tip you off if that was the case.
I DO lament the loss of the sight glass holes however. I have no problem seeing the fuel level - if you do, just shake the airplane a little and you can see the level bounce around.
I agree with Scott, however (you see Scott - we DO agree sometimes....), I firmly believe in visually confirming the fuel level on any airplane - be it a Cessna 172, or a Cherokee, or the thousands of Boeings I've fueled over many years. There have been more than enough fuel exhaustion accidents due to gauging errors, to have made me a believer, and tolerate the doggone fuel running down my arm from a dripstick. Yuk!
Without the sight glass holes, you're totally dependent on two invisible systems - a mechanical gage and a computerized one, both vulnerable to errors - a much less robust system. I like to SEE the gas. Like the movie line "Show me the money" - for me, it's "Show me the gas."
Bob Bogash
N737G
After running an estimated 325 gallons of fuel through N737G, I just don't think it's any big deal. If my wife is around, she gives me a heads-up on the quantity. When I'm by myself - like yesterday - I've got the whole process pretty much down pat, and can run it right up to almost full without any problem, and then squeeze in the little extra to top it off (which the auto gas stations tell you not to do) by just listening at the filler port. I've got the gurgle sound figured out too.
I'm dubious as to the value of checking in-flight. If you have a quantity problem, and it's not going through the engine, then there must be a big leak somewhere. With the tank right behind you, and the lines right under you, I'm a thinking there would be something to tip you off if that was the case.
I DO lament the loss of the sight glass holes however. I have no problem seeing the fuel level - if you do, just shake the airplane a little and you can see the level bounce around.
I agree with Scott, however (you see Scott - we DO agree sometimes....), I firmly believe in visually confirming the fuel level on any airplane - be it a Cessna 172, or a Cherokee, or the thousands of Boeings I've fueled over many years. There have been more than enough fuel exhaustion accidents due to gauging errors, to have made me a believer, and tolerate the doggone fuel running down my arm from a dripstick. Yuk!
Without the sight glass holes, you're totally dependent on two invisible systems - a mechanical gage and a computerized one, both vulnerable to errors - a much less robust system. I like to SEE the gas. Like the movie line "Show me the money" - for me, it's "Show me the gas."
Bob Bogash
N737G
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I fill my tank with 5 gal jugs and have always been able to hear the change in pitch when the filler neck starts to fill. I like the idea of the gage, but see no compelling reason to go through the pain and suffering to install it.
txaviator
Well Known Member
I'm about to order my interior kit. I wonder if they told Abby about this new addition? Granted I don't have the Moeller gauge installed, but I just ordered one. I'd hate to see it covered up by Abby's interior
I've had my finish kit for about 8-months, and mine is like Randy's: it has the sight glass, and also has the sending unit in the front panel to feed the Dynon.
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I have always been able to hear the sound change while filling the RV-12 tanks... as long as it is not a noisy environment.
I have been in situations while traveling cross country, where the ramp was noisy from a jet or King Air, or the fuel truck engine and pump noise was quite loud, and it was impossible to hear when the tank was getting full.
This is the primary reason for implementing the modification.
I have been in situations while traveling cross country, where the ramp was noisy from a jet or King Air, or the fuel truck engine and pump noise was quite loud, and it was impossible to hear when the tank was getting full.
This is the primary reason for implementing the modification.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I agree background noise can make it hard to hear. Use 4.5 gal/ hr as an estimate of fuel used and go easy filling the last gallon. Should minimize the spilling issue if you can't hear.
Got to repeat myself on the preflight issue. Just stick a nylon tube (like the pitot static lines) down the filler neck, put your thumb over the end and get a sounding. Can't beat simplicity!
Got to repeat myself on the preflight issue. Just stick a nylon tube (like the pitot static lines) down the filler neck, put your thumb over the end and get a sounding. Can't beat simplicity!
txaviator
Well Known Member
HEADS UP, FOLKS: Interior Kit
I just spoke to Abby @ Flightline. When I ordered my finish kit, I got grey / pewter seats. I asked Abby to sew the 'RV-12' into the seats, in a dark blue thread. She did this, and it looks awesome.
Fast-forward to today: I was online about to order my full interior / carpet kit from Vans. It crossed my mind that some folks have the Moeller gauge now as standard equipment (in the latest finish kits), some have added the gauge according to JB's drawing, and yet some of us are adding the gauge based on the new dimensions from the Vans factory-included version. Before I called Vans to order the interior, I called Abby to remind her that I would like to request the 'EXPERIMENTAL' to be sewn in the same dark blue thread as she did on my seats.
I mentioned the new Moeller gauge to Abby and she had not heard that this was now a standard feature from Vans. In addition, she asked me about the optional stiffener kit for the front sides of the fuselage. I told her that I had done this stiffener upgrade too, and tried to explain to her how it was installed. My point is that if you are about to order an interior, I'd wait a few days! Abby said she needed to call Vans about the dimensions on the stiffener pieces (some have them and some have not installed them), and she was now going to ask them about the standard Moeller gauge.
I'm going to wait a few weeks before I order my interior. If Abby doesn't yet have the dimensions to sew in the features, I'd have front side panels that won't fit (due to the stiffeners I've added),and most importantly, I wouldn't be able to see my new Moeller gauge unless Abby knows where to sew the circle. Her tank carpeting would cover it up right now!
Just an FYI if anyone was about to order an interior kit. Abby knows about the gauge now that I told her, but she was going to call Vans for further data.
I just spoke to Abby @ Flightline. When I ordered my finish kit, I got grey / pewter seats. I asked Abby to sew the 'RV-12' into the seats, in a dark blue thread. She did this, and it looks awesome.
Fast-forward to today: I was online about to order my full interior / carpet kit from Vans. It crossed my mind that some folks have the Moeller gauge now as standard equipment (in the latest finish kits), some have added the gauge according to JB's drawing, and yet some of us are adding the gauge based on the new dimensions from the Vans factory-included version. Before I called Vans to order the interior, I called Abby to remind her that I would like to request the 'EXPERIMENTAL' to be sewn in the same dark blue thread as she did on my seats.
I mentioned the new Moeller gauge to Abby and she had not heard that this was now a standard feature from Vans. In addition, she asked me about the optional stiffener kit for the front sides of the fuselage. I told her that I had done this stiffener upgrade too, and tried to explain to her how it was installed. My point is that if you are about to order an interior, I'd wait a few days! Abby said she needed to call Vans about the dimensions on the stiffener pieces (some have them and some have not installed them), and she was now going to ask them about the standard Moeller gauge.
I'm going to wait a few weeks before I order my interior. If Abby doesn't yet have the dimensions to sew in the features, I'd have front side panels that won't fit (due to the stiffeners I've added),and most importantly, I wouldn't be able to see my new Moeller gauge unless Abby knows where to sew the circle. Her tank carpeting would cover it up right now!
Just an FYI if anyone was about to order an interior kit. Abby knows about the gauge now that I told her, but she was going to call Vans for further data.
TomVal
Well Known Member
I've reached the same conclusion. I'm going to pass on the Moeller gage mod. Just calibrate the sight gage every two gallons with a sharpie. Before fueling read the fuel level and calculate the gallons to add. About .5 gallons before reaching the calculated top off quantity to add, slow the refill rate until reaching top-off. I also like having the sight gage as a built-in dip stick.
Fuel tank mods
I agree with the logic of the above two posts. However, if you have to open the fuel tank for cause, like to do the tank upgrade SB, or to fix something else, then going ahead with the Moeller gauge at that time is a no-brainer.
I installed my Moeller when I did the fuel tank SB, and I left the sight glass because I like to see the fuel also. The Moeller is mainly useful when refueling.
Tony
I agree with the logic of the above two posts. However, if you have to open the fuel tank for cause, like to do the tank upgrade SB, or to fix something else, then going ahead with the Moeller gauge at that time is a no-brainer.
I installed my Moeller when I did the fuel tank SB, and I left the sight glass because I like to see the fuel also. The Moeller is mainly useful when refueling.
Tony
yankee-flyer
Well Known Member
Simple sight gauge calibration
If you search on sight gauge you'll find my post from a couple of years ago (09-11-2011) with the info on this simple sight gauge readout. It's easy to check the fuel level and cross-check that against the Dynon before ever climbing into the bird. As note above, gently rocking the airplane makes it easy to see where the fuel level is.
If your sight gauge isn't leaking (mine's been good for 200 hours) why would you go to all the work to install a more complex system that increases the probability of failure?
Wayne 120241/143WM
If you search on sight gauge you'll find my post from a couple of years ago (09-11-2011) with the info on this simple sight gauge readout. It's easy to check the fuel level and cross-check that against the Dynon before ever climbing into the bird. As note above, gently rocking the airplane makes it easy to see where the fuel level is.
If your sight gauge isn't leaking (mine's been good for 200 hours) why would you go to all the work to install a more complex system that increases the probability of failure?
Wayne 120241/143WM
