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RV-12 accident Australia 3-23-2013

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Sadly has been confirmed as an RV-12 on its maiden flight. Pilot was a well known local aerobatic display pilot and aircraft manufacturer (Drifter), but not the builder in this case.

Educated eye witness reports are of a steep climb to the right immediately after takeoff, aircraft rolled over and dived into ground. The impact was understandably hard and there was a post impact fire.

RIP fellow aviator.
 
Fatal RV-12 accident

UPDATE: 11.25am:

Relieving Duty Officer Acting Inspector Virginia Szaak of Richmond local area command has confirmed that one man has died in the crash.

"About nine o'clock, an Ultralight on its maiden voyage has taken off from Lismore airport. It's gotten about 100m into the air and it's collided with the ground, killing the pilot instantly," Acting Insp Szaak said.

She said at this point they could confirm that the person on board the Ultralight RV12 was a local Lismore man who was an experienced pilot associated with the Northern Rivers Aero Club.

Acting Insp Szaak said that they were currently trying to establish a next of kin and that investigations were continuing.



9.45am, Sunday March 24:

Police have confirmed that this morning, shortly before 9am, a light plane has crashed at Lismore Airport.

Emergency Services are on the scene extinguishing flames.

No details on occupants as yet.

The plane is believed to be a private charter.

Updates to follow.

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2013/03/24/564202_latest-news.html
 
I've been dreading this day - the first fatal accident in an RV-12. Statistically it was bound to happen, but it's still very disturbing at the moment. I respectfully suggest that we all refrain from starting to speculate on the cause until hard facts are known.
 
My most sincere condolences to his family and friends. It's a great tragedy when something like this happens, and the recreational aviation community over here has been shocked, particularly as the pilot was well known to many and highly regarded for his flying skills and his many years of involvement in aviation.
 
Unfortunately hard fact may be a little difficult to come by, the administration of recreational flying in Aus (as opposed to general aviation) is such that the investigation will be a police matter, with an eventual report to the coroner. There is no public report a la ATSB, except in exceptional circumstances.

That said, the police usually have technical people from Recreational Aviation Australia assist and the necessary information has a way of finding its way onto the forums. There will no doubt be updates here as and when information trickles through.
 
What a tragic end to what would have started out as an exciting day. My thoughts are with all who have been touched by this sad turn of events.
 
Being a first flight, the odds may be high that someone was filming. Hopefully that could help the investigation.

Condolences to all involved.
 
I am deeply sorry to hear this awful news. Offering sincerest condolences to family and friends. Very, very sad.
 
A tragedy and very upsetting. Condolences to the family and all who knew
him. Dreadfully sad.

There are just too many of these lately...........

Erik
 
I've been dreading this day - the first fatal accident in an RV-12. Statistically it was bound to happen, but it's still very disturbing at the moment. I respectfully suggest that we all refrain from starting to speculate on the cause until hard facts are known.

Well put, John - I couldn't agree more. I got the same black pit in my stomach when other airplane models that I have been deeply associated with have suffered their first fatal accident. (One hasn't yet, and I won't mention it out of superstition.)

My First Flight is just a day or two away, and my greatest fear isn't lack of piloting skills, or an engine failure, it's some grossly mis-rigged flight control system that will throw the airplane horribly out of control, as may have happened here. I haven't even decided if I will make the first flight - I have two well qualified volunteers to do it for me. But, the pilot in this case was apparently very qualified, so - what have a gained if something I may have over-looked creates a situation beyond ANY pilot's control?

I think I will just taxi for a few days while I ponder this sad day and consider my options.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
That's awful! Thoughts and prayers to the survivors. First flights have almost become routine, it's sad to see when something goes wrong.
 
Condolences to all family and friends. I am near the first flight. Very concerned!! World News Australia says, Because the the plane was not a fixed wing aircraft NO investigation will be conducted. By looking at the accident photo I believe much could be gleaned from the wreckage. Would Van's or their
representative be willing to conduct further investigation????????? John
 
Condolences to all family and friends. I am near the first flight. Very concerned!! World News Australia says, Because the the plane was not a fixed wing aircraft NO investigation will be conducted. By looking at the accident photo I believe much could be gleaned from the wreckage. Would Van's or their
representative be willing to conduct further investigation????????? John

I expect there will be a Coroners investigation, with investigation evidence from the Police. The Police are not ideal as an investigative entity in such a specialist field, and would expect them to seek outside assistance.
Van's should be able to offer assistance, but it may be sensitive as Van's will presumably be considered an interested party rather than an independent entity (this is not to imply Van's is anything other than totally ethical, but it will be a legal decision).
Edit - I am not a lawyer and may be completely wrong.
 
Very tragic. My heart goes out to the pilot's family.

I agree speculating without facts is not productive. My advice to those nearing their first flight is to check all outstanding safety bulletins for compliance and go through your flight critical items in detail: flight controls, fuel system, attachment of wings and control surfaces. Of course there are many items to check, but these are the ones that seem to lead to the situations skill can't overcome.
 
RV Investagation

I expect there will be a Coroners investigation, with investigation evidence from the Police. The Police are not ideal as an investigative entity in such a specialist field, and would expect them to seek outside assistance.
Van's should be able to offer assistance, but it may be sensitive as Van's will presumably be considered an interested party rather than an independent entity (this is not to imply Van's is anything other than totally ethical, but it will be a legal decision).
Edit - I am not a lawyer and may be completely wrong.

This accident will be examined by the Police & the RAA ( Recreational Aircraft Australia) as it was Rego'd under there Rules....still a sorry painful Process for all!
 
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At least the investigator in NSW is of an equal or higher quality than the ATSB. Cant say the same of the other states.

There is ample evidence, and detailed.

The good news for the RV12 community is quite simple. This was not the fault of the aircraft design or assembly.

Dont ask me questions. That is all there is to say for now. There will be a high quality coronial report to read eventually. In the interim you can work out exactly what went on.
 
David,

Thanks for sending along what you have. I (and I'm sure others) have been wondering what is going on. And it seems the community has been showing an admirable sense of restraint regarding speculation.

Please forward more details when it's appropriate.

John
 
Unfortunately, when something like this happens, a great company and a great product get a tarnished reputation.

I spoke at our recent SAAA (your EAA) chapter meeting yesterday about all our collective responsibilities when flying but more so in first flights. This is a serious business, inspections need to be thorough, preferably with another very experienced A&P/LAME or builder who knows what they are looking at, and with a check sheet, usually several pages of them.

This pre first flight inspection is normally a full day, then once all the panels seats etc are replaced and checked they are done properly, the next morning is a time for testing.

In Australia lately, the RAAus who administer the ultralight and LSA segment (done different to the USA) have had a lot of fatalities this year already, and by far the bigest chunk of them are directly out of the basket of "low hanging fruit" that Van talked about in his safety corner two years ago.

In the last twelve months it has been staggering, from night ops in Trikes (dark like the inside of a cow), Trikes in IMC and spinning at low level, drinking then doing beat ups in a Drifter (UL), and the list goes on. Now this one which is closer to home for us as it was an RV, however on the RAAus register.

It makes me mad :mad: It reflects poorly on the rest of us, and we all have to work harder to protect what we have, when we should not have to!
 
I haven't even decided if I will make the first flight - I have two well qualified volunteers to do it for me.Bob Bogash 737G
An incident like this one is one of two primary reasons that only I was going to do the first flight in our aircraft. If it was going to bite anyone ... it was going to bite me. The other ... after all of the work ... we were going to experience the first flight.

First flight was only after a team of experts repeatedly went over the entire aircraft with a fine toothed comb. Ground crew was briefed ... etc.
 
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I too think we may be going overboard on this site for "political correctness" in accident discussions. I sincerely believe in useful "Education thru Error" principles. What always happens here is we shush up any of the facts, and then the accident just goes away - forever - and never returns with those facts that might save lives. There should be some sort of suspense files where this will come back after a certain period.
I am serving notice to moderators, if I crash and burn, I want EVERYONE to please speculate, investigate, and put the blame exactly where it belongs, hopefully during the next day or two after my demise while it can have some effect on others safety.

..
If everyone knows what happened then why all the secrecy. Is there a lesson to this accident that might possibly save someone's life in the near future?
George


[ed. Go to http://www.vansairforce.net/rules.htm and read #6. v/r, dr]
 
My understanding is that we are waiting for the coroner's report to be completed. RAAus, the organisation with which the aircraft was registered, is involved in the investigation, so clearly there are people in the aviation community over here, and others, who have inside information on the cause of the crash but are not yet able to say anything publicly. David Brown has already hinted that it was a pilot issue, not an aircraft fault. We would all like to know what happened, but I guess we will have to wait for the report to be released.
 
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If everyone knows what happened then why all the secrecy. Is there a lesson to this accident that might possibly save someone's life in the near future?
Probably...

I too think we may be going overboard on this site for "political correctness" in accident discussions. I sincerely believe in useful "Education thru Error" principles. ..
Yep.

... David Brown has already hinted that it was a pilot issue, not an aircraft fault. ...
Leaving the question of the day ... would it be an issue that would affect the safety of the two first flights mentioned below or any other first flight.

Doug's board ... Doug's rules...
We could start another (or use an existing one that's less restrictive) for discussing safety...
 
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I am serving notice to moderators, if I crash and burn, I want EVERYONE to please speculate, investigate, and put the blame exactly where it belongs, hopefully during the next day or two after my demise while it can have some effect on others safety.

Don,

I understand your sentiments but the problem with instant and uninformed speculation is the blame may be placed exactly where it doesn't belong.

And that is unproductive.
 
I understand your sentiments but the problem with instant and uninformed speculation is the blame may be placed exactly where it doesn't belong.
I don't think that anyone wants to blame anyone (well some might, but likely not the ones in this and most other discussions).

Folks just don't want to wind up in the same boat... Just saying...
 
I don't think that anyone wants to blame anyone (well some might, but likely not the ones in this and most other discussions).

I was just quoting Don's "blame" comment--blame (cause of accident) isn't necessarily directed at a person, it could be a mechanical failure or design problem.

Folks just don't want to wind up in the same boat... Just saying...

That is why we have official accident reports. :)
 
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Discussion of accidents

...Doug's board ... Doug's rules...
We could start another (or use an existing one that's less restrictive) for discussing safety...

Very true. A long time ago before Doug purchased the current software (yes, it ain't free), Doug set up some Yahoo Groups for discussions in addition to his web page. If someone wants to set up a Yahoo Group or whatever to discuss accidents, that would probably be a good idea.

Some folks might remember that in the past, I have been one of the most avid contributors to discussions of accident causes. I learned that most of the time when I offered my opinion, I was wrong. Perhaps I had inaccurate or incomplete "facts," or maybe I was just wrong. I do enjoy reading accident reports to learn causes, but I don't enjoy emotional discussions that often cloud the facts. I also learned that pilot's opinions are like airplane wings...every one has at least one!

I have the opinion that the FAA, NTSB and those pesky litigation lawyers frequent this site, especially if they're looking for certain information. I've never talked to Doug about this and don't feel a need to, but he may not want his site viewed as a source for depositions in legal matters. That's my 2 cents worth.

Peace...
 
Whilst I agree that he who owns the sandpit, makes the rules, I will say that I am a member of another forum where speculation is actively encouraged. Whilst emotions do get a little raw where friends and loved ones are concerned, I have learnt an incredible amount from the discussions there, EVEN when the theories put forward to explain an accident are later proven not to be the cause. The fact remains that they may have been correct and could cause the same thing to happen another time. My take on things is that forums have to a large extent replaced "hangar flying" for many of us - hangar flying where some of the information presented was equally questionable, but nevertheless helped pilots learn what wasn't taught at flying school.

All a bit off topic, but in the absence of concrete info on this one, I guess frustration leads us to find something to talk about.
 
I don't understand all this brouhaha, can't you read between the lines folks?
David Brown made it clear that, from what he knew, neither the RV-12 design nor the builder were at fault. What he knows he cannot communicate because the report of the coroner has not been released... This should be sufficient as a hint no?
 
I guess it boils down to feeling bad that someone is saying to me "you are too dumb to sort thru the comments, so we will just not allow them".
Still, in looking for solutions rather than problems, I wonder in this world of electronic reminders, could we not make some sort of system that revisits these things after the "smart people" have sorted it all out? It is sad that we sweep it all under the carpet, never to be used for education. No wonder we have a perceived safety problem with homebuilts.
 
If accidents are discussed in some forums, why are there still accidents?

I guess it boils down to feeling bad that someone is saying to me "you are too dumb to sort thru the comments, so we will just not allow them".
Still, in looking for solutions rather than problems, I wonder in this world of electronic reminders, could we not make some sort of system that revisits these things after the "smart people" have sorted it all out? It is sad that we sweep it all under the carpet, never to be used for education. No wonder we have a perceived safety problem with homebuilts.

As I understand the forum rules, there is no prohibition against reviewing the NTSB accident reports and posting them to VAF for discussion. This would prevent "sweeping it all under the carpet", would limit discussion to primarily known facts, and serve as education for those who wish to profit from the discussion.

As for the perceived safety problem with homebuilts (and other light GA aircraft), unfortunately it seems a portion of the accidents are caused by pilots who don't frequent forums or safety seminars. Our challenge is finding a way to reach those "loners" but a solution has been elusive.

I suspect there are personality traits that leads those accident pilots to be both a loner and statistic.
 
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Loners

... unfortunately it seems a portion of the accidents are caused by pilots who don't frequent forums or safety seminars. Our challenge is finding a way to reach those "loners" but a solution has been elusive.

I suspect there are personality traits that leads those accident pilots to be both a loner and statistic.
Sam hits the nail on the head. Most of us are already converted and singing in the choir - how do we get the message out to those that need it? I'm not saying of course that a regular sermon refreshing "the word" isn't useful even to the believers (I know I benefit from these regular safety discussions).

I think this issue has been discussed a lot in various forums, and there does not seem to be any consensus, except that it's a hard problem and we should not give up or get discouraged.
 
Accident update

This was posted yesterday on a local forum by someone who had known the test pilot for many years. I've reprinted it here with the OP's permission:

I spoke with a few people at Wayne's Memorial, family and others close to the plane builder and who were close to witnesses to the crash. From the little information that was available -

Wayne had been a part of and/or closely observed all of the build of the kit, so he was well versed in what was under the bonnet, so to speak, and so it is doubtful that something didn't get bolted up, which ought to have been.

The take-off was apparently normal and so was the initial climb to about 200ft, then the plane went vertical or near-vertical and stalled. There is then some conflicting reports about whether it tail-slid into the ground or tail-slid and then dropped the nose vertical before impact. The latter seems more likely from the photos of the scene which show the wings' l/e into the ground, although they could have been moved during the fire response.

The engine was reported to be running on impact.

The fire was almost instantaneous and reportedly took 35 mins to extinguish. Perhaps it was extinguished 35mins after impact.

There was a post mortem examination which reportedly indicated no fire or smoke inhalation damage to the lungs indicating that the pilot was unconcious or deceased before the fire ignited.

I did not hear of any indication, post mortem examination or otherwise, to indicate any health issue or incapacitation was suspected but that does not rule out that possibility.

You can draw your own conclusions.
 
Thanks, that was helpful information.

This was posted yesterday on a local forum by someone who had known the test pilot for many years. I've reprinted it here with the OP's permission:

I spoke with a few people at Wayne's Memorial, family and others close to the plane builder and who were close to witnesses to the crash. From the little information that was available -

Wayne had been a part of and/or closely observed all of the build of the kit, so he was well versed in what was under the bonnet, so to speak, and so it is doubtful that something didn't get bolted up, which ought to have been.

The take-off was apparently normal and so was the initial climb to about 200ft, then the plane went vertical or near-vertical and stalled. There is then some conflicting reports about whether it tail-slid into the ground or tail-slid and then dropped the nose vertical before impact. The latter seems more likely from the photos of the scene which show the wings' l/e into the ground, although they could have been moved during the fire response.

The engine was reported to be running on impact.

The fire was almost instantaneous and reportedly took 35 mins to extinguish. Perhaps it was extinguished 35mins after impact.

There was a post mortem examination which reportedly indicated no fire or smoke inhalation damage to the lungs indicating that the pilot was unconcious or deceased before the fire ignited.

I did not hear of any indication, post mortem examination or otherwise, to indicate any health issue or incapacitation was suspected but that does not rule out that possibility.

You can draw your own conclusions.
 
This a good aircraft, and I continue to fly mine without any reservations. Let's just let the Aussie authorities do their job and wait for the results. Believe me when I say the first 3 homebuilts I completed and fllew were no where near as well designed as the RV-12.
 
A lost Friend

I posted this elsewhere but now adding it here for consideration Thank you..

Guys,
Looking for answers.. A good friend and very very experienced pilot is dead as the result of a initial test flight going wrong in the RV12...

1. Does this aircraft have appropriate stick forces as required under LSA and most other catagories.
2. How easy is it to hook the trim servo up incorrectly and can we ascertain this by looking at the tail as the cockpit is destroyed.
3. Can a builder inadvertantly set the neutral /maximum up / maximum down positions of the elevator incorrectly.

It seems to me that, if the aircraft has no stick forces (or limited) a pilot could very easily cause the tail to stall (dynamic or otherwise) and fall sending the nose pitching up and that this situation would be totally unrecoverable as the tail would continue in its stalled state as the pilot in his endeavours to get the nose down would force the stall to continue.
It is normal practice to have straightline stick forces of say 7 kilogram (14 lbs) per "G".. Does anyone have this type of force on the 12... simple to check, spring scale on the joystick, G meter or small electric scale on dash with say 100 gram weight, going up 100 grams per G... Example .. at 300grams on the dash scale (3gs) should be 21kg (42 lb at the joystick).. Without this I would not be accepting any invitations to travel in such an aircraft.
I totally accept and appreciate that RVs have a excellent record aqnd this is not intended as an attack on the aircraft type but rather a search for what may have happened.
I have know and flown with the pilot on a regular basis for over 30 years and short of a health issue (and there was none), as autopsy investigation suggests he died on impact prior to the fire. If the aircraft was controllable this pilot could do it. There was one other comment on this site where a 12 suffered moderate damage after pitching up without notice and falling back into the ground. This begs that I ask how easy is it to accidentally rig the tail incorrectly which may cause it to stall and pitch the aircraft up?
I also noted another comment on this site from a pre-first flight Inspector in the USA, who stated that 50% of the aircraft he inspected had the trim servo wired in reverse. Is this over-ridable?
Is there anyone who can help here.
thanks

Email me directly by all means.. Just need an answer for the loss of a good friend..
 
edit: After a more careful read of the post I responded to I've decided not to feed speculation.
 
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I have no knowledge of the stick force per g characteristics of the -12
I don't have any kind of measurements and the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', but I find the pitch characteristics of the RV-12 to be quite docile and mainstream. It has a better, more controllable feel than my RV-6.
 
I think it goes without saying that the aircraft meets all the LSA requirements - it could not be sold as such otherwise. Certainly ANY homebuilder can make mistakes - that is why the smart homebuilder/test pilot does a VERY thorough inspection before he flies the aircraft.

Note that, even if you stalled the elevator, the aircraft would only go to a nose up attitude if it had an aft CG. This would be very hard to accomplish in this aircraft unless there was something seriously wrong.

As has been mentioned, let's wait for the official report on this accident before we start condemning the design, the builder, the pilot, or gravity!
 
Ongoing Search

People please read the post by "Johnf" titled "Crunch" and dated 24th June 2010 and give some feed back.

Regards
menty
 
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