Am I the only one who finds IFR harder with synthetic vision?

I recently installed a GRT Horizon HX. I find that the little white level attitude indicator line is easy to overlook. During climbout with little more than a big blue screen the white line just isn't as obvious as the old blue over brown AI.
I am guessing it will get better with time. Is it just me?

That single aspect is probably the only part at I can think of that makes it harder. In fact, with the Mini-X, the higher your AGL altitude, the higher the white line is above the synthetic ground. I don't like this. I don't know if the other GRT screens do this. It is not nearly as pronounced on the other screens I have flown with synthetic vision. I greatly prefer the synthetic vision in most phases of flight, especially when it comes to flying an approach, where you can see towers and the runway on your screen.

I am getting my instrument with a mini ap as my pfd. It's small but even small it's pretty great to see the runway on the approach as you get closer. I would agree with you that the pitch can be a little hard to derive. I wonder if there are settings in the menu to overlay more pitch info. There is a lot of functionality and customization. Overall I'm happy I'm not flying a six pack and the backup battery adds confidence

FORANE said:

Is it just me?

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No".........................................................

It will get better with time and practice. There are also many other features that makes IFR easier.

For example, just put the flight director on the end of the runway and it makes adjusting for a cross wind a piece a cake. When I did my IPC this past year, I learned all kinds of features of my EFIS.

Unfortunately I don't fly IFR often enough to keep proficient as I would like on all the buttonology. With that said, I feel much more comfortable due to the reduced workload than I did with the steam gauges in my Cherokee.

First of all, don't kid yourself. It will take hours, not minutes, to get used to all of the extra info available on the PFD, and figuring out how to use it efficiently.
Second, I think there's a tendency to think that because you have all this extra info, you don't have to go back to basics. The PFD tempts you to think that you can use the AI as a "performance" instrument, instead of the "control" instrument that it is. e.g.,when you flew a basic 6 pack, on, say, an ILS, you'd look at the glide slope needle and look at the VSI, and then look at the AI (and/or throttle) to input any needed correction. With the PFD and all the synthetic vision, there's a tendency to not look at the VSI. But as you've discovered that makes it hard.

I personally have found the transition from familiar gauges to the PFD display to be a bit subtle in unanticipated ways. e.g., I do a much better job of maintaining heading when I split the screen and show an HSI on one side. My brain is used to a conventional DG and can hold a heading without thinking, when it's displayed on a round dial. But put it on a linear tape, and I have to think about it, especially the size of correction(s) needed.

Note added: Bob, I think you meant the "projected velocity vector", not the "flight director". The FD display is the inverted V command and attitude bars, where you nest them together to get the desired horizontal and vertical tracks.

Jesse said:

That single aspect is probably the only part at I can think of that makes it harder. In fact, with the Mini-X, the higher your AGL altitude, the higher the white line is above the synthetic ground. I don't like this. I don't know if the other GRT screens do this. It is not nearly as pronounced on the other screens I have flown with synthetic vision. I greatly prefer the synthetic vision in most phases of flight, especially when it comes to flying an approach, where you can see towers and the runway on your screen.

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I too have found the "horizon line" takes a bit of getting used to as well. Even been tempted to switch the more traditional view.

I have considered asking them to make the horizon line on the Synthetic Vision a few dots thicker.

The "perspective" on the MINI is a little different. Discussed this with Greg when the MINI first came out. It is something that I **think** they can change but probably won't unless there are a lot of people who feel that it should be.

As implied, if you get high enough, your screen will basically be full of "sky" if all before you is flatland.

James

I think the more you use it and understand what you are seeing the easier it will get.

The white attitude line is really an attitude/altitude line. It depicts where you are in relation to the ground, hence the higher you are the more blue between the line and the ground displayed, if that makes sense. It will make you look at the big picture instead of just seeing it as an attitude indicator. If you have the opportunity to fly near mountainous terrain this can be easily demonstrated. Fly at an altitude below the highest elevation in the distance and you can see the white line cuttng through the terran displayed.

I'm so used to it now that I just see it as the attitude indicator in the sky.

That is the biggest reason I keep a D6 in my panel right below the MiniX. Just a plain AI and pitch ladder to easily see attitude on climb out on black nights and IMC.

Old style

You can run the Mini just like an old attitude indicator if you so desire. Simple punch of a button out of SV.

F1R said:

That is the biggest reason I keep a D6 in my panel right below the MiniX. Just a plain AI and pitch ladder to easily see attitude on climb out on black nights and IMC.

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Just remember that for a maximum performance climb the ASI (Vy), not the AI, is primary.

jclark said:

I too have found the "horizon line" takes a bit of getting used to as well. Even been tempted to switch the more traditional view.

I have considered asking them to make the horizon line on the Synthetic Vision a few dots thicker.


James

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Yes, I wondered if there is a setting somewhere that allows for the user to change the horizon line thickness or brightness.

Love my GRT HX

We have the only system (GRT) that can play back all flights just as they were originally flown and shown on the EFIS. Just program the Demo mode to start at a selected speed or rpm and end with zero rpm or speed. I selected file size of 30 minutes, a 2 gig thumb drive in the USB slot will have space for about 100 hrs or perhaps much more. The playback of just one flight as often as you wish provides much practice with your efis and burn no fuel. Just don't run your battery too low. I love my HX just the way GRT designed it. Wishing you and all a happy new year!

It would take me many hours of training to get back comfortable with a 6 pack, if ever. I never really was comfortable in all my IFR training with a 6 pack. I was immediately comfortable with an EFIS.

The horizontal white line is adjustable location with the pitch ladder offset that will move it up and down relative. I have mine on horizon level cruise flight. Its amazing to see the different location based on angle of attack, which changes with weight and altitude.

Maybe I'm missing something in the commentary, and I've never used the particular PFD you're talking about, however, it is normal for most if not all aircraft large and small for the aircraft to cruise in level flight at a higher pitch attitude as altitude increases. If you graphed it out, I imagine that it would be pretty much relative to the change in IAS vs TAS as altitude increases.

An accurate display might show little to no pitch up in level flight at 1000 feet msl and 3-4 degrees or more pitch up at service ceiling. Depending upon the graphics scale the difference might appear significant.

In the old days of steam gauges, the pitch pip was adjustable which a lot of pilots would just reset without thinking in cruise just to see a level depiction (bad habit IMO). That's why rental aircraft often seemed to depict a few degrees below the horizon on startup and needed adjustment. Some CFI's would teach students to level off and reset the pip to the horizon. Better instructors would have a student level the pip on the ground and forbid touching the adjustment in flight to learn appreciation for the difference in attitude at altitude and to have the most accuracy for approach.

If this isn't what you guys are talking about, please disregard.

Kahuna said:

It would take me many hours of training to get back comfortable with a 6 pack, if ever. I never really was comfortable in all my IFR training with a 6 pack. I was immediately comfortable with an EFIS.

The horizontal white line is adjustable location with the pitch ladder offset that will move it up and down relative. I have mine on horizon level cruise flight. Its amazing to see the different location based on angle of attack, which changes with weight and altitude.

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That's why EFIS was invented.

When Boeing presented EFIS with the 767, some took to it like ducks to water. Others did not. They were very good with the basic 6 pack, could make quarter dot pitch changes on an ILS approach using flight director. It worked very well day in and night out.

I much preferred the new EFIS system but its been a while. There was no synthetic vision in the beginning. In the early days when paper approach charts were mandatory, they contained a lot of information that kept a flight safe but to have all of it on the screen would be a distraction, making a quarter dot correction would be difficult. Is that what synthetic vision does? Flying the approach on auto pilot would be best, the pilot simply monitors what is going on.

The company I worked for had the policy where the first officer flew the approach, either by hand or autopilot, the captain monitored until the runway was in sight and he landed the airplane, unless it was CAT 3 where the autopilot did the landing including auto braking, now isn't that sweet!!

Synthetic vision may be a consequence of technology. Like the atomic clock, something invented and a use was found for it later. The atomic clock will keep almost perfect time for 400,000 years. Some years after its perfection, GPS was invented.

Another byproduct of all this was proof Einstein was correct, traveling at any speed slows time. The clocks in the GPS system are calibrated to account for the greater speed of the satellites. it was also proven early on, an atomic clock traveling around the globe in a jet airplane recorded a different time than its mate on the ground that did not make the trip.

Thats why flight crews sometimes appear ageless, but not always.

Apples and Oranges

Let's all talk about the same white level line that the opening post asked about.

On the GRT in synthetic vision you have TWO lines. One is the normal plane symbol on all attitude indicators. This one is and the associated pitch ladder is adjustable in the SET menu.

The second white line is visible when synthetic vision is turned on and displays the planes current altitude in relation to the synthetic vision terrain. It is not adjustable except with altitude change, either actual or barometric. You can easily see this next time you are on the ground, look at the thin white line that goes all the way across the indicator. If the altimeter is set correctly it should be superimposed on the horizon. At 10,000 feet that white line will be up in the blue (sky) portion of the ADI. It moves just like the ADI roll portion, but not the pitch portion. It is simply a line showing where your altitude is in relation to the SV map.

This image shows the thin white line on the ground and the notmal plane symbol and pitch ladder indicating normal tail dragger attitude on the ground. The thin white altitude line is well below the terrain shown on the SV since the airport elevation is lower.



This image shows the thin white lne at 11,500.



Note the normal ADI and pitch ladder in both. They are not the same thing.



It's not meant to be be an ADI.

On the Mini with it's smaller area as you get higher you see less ground on the display. At 10,000 feet or so, you may see no ground ondicating at all, hence the blue attitude indicator.

Hope this makes sense.

Good discussion, thanks.
A few thoughts. ..
I did set the thin white line to level attitude in cruise flight on the first flight after installation.
Even departing from my home airport in the mountains of northeast Tennessee(0A9) all I see is blue on climbout.
I did not know the pitch ladder boldness was adjustable. Will have to try that.
I would like the thin white horizon line to be adjustable.

So the problem appears to be that the syn vis horizon appears far too low on the GRT Mini when at cruise altitude. Compare these two photos, taken at the same altitude and attitude, of my GRT Mini and Garmin G3X.

The G3X horizon is much safer in the event of spacial disorientation. It also conforms much better to what I see out of the cockpit.

Christian,

Not to change the subject of the thread, but is the magenta "+" on your attitude indicator on the G3X the flight director? I thought the Garmin used the inverted V for the flight director?

You are looking at the course and GS deviation indicators.

ZemsRV4 said:

Christian,

Not to change the subject of the thread, but is the magenta "+" on your attitude indicator on the G3X the flight director? I thought the Garmin used the inverted V for the flight director?

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While I'm not a Garmin guru, over my career I've flown behind a bunch of flight directors, both the bars and batwings, and they look like FD bars to me. At this phase of flight there should not be a glide slope indicator. The airplane is not on course but is in heading mode and altitude hold is engages with the autopilot so it appears those magenta bars are a flight director all centered up showing the plane is on heading and on altitude.

i did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night,

Garmin gives you a choice of the horizontal and vertical lines, or the more standard bat wing. Either will only appear during autopilot flight or, if you have the external A/P head, when the FD is engaged. The GS will appear to the right of the bars where the "V" is visible on the display in the photo above.

Right. Garmin G3X defaults to magenta inverted chevron (single cue) but allows dual cue as an option. It's less intuitive, but more powerful because it allows you to easily separate roll from pitch and only follow one when hand-flying the FD. That's why the airliners use it. I love that Garmin give us the choice.

The mini showing an all blue screen like that would turn me right off. It's an attitude indicator.....how can you see attitude with no ground reference?

ColoRv said:

The mini showing an all blue screen like that would turn me right off. It's an attitude indicator.....how can you see attitude with no ground reference?

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Agree completely.
I am really glad I chose to install the GRT Horizon hx instead of the mini which I considered due to limited panel space.