What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

What else besides Garmin for WAAS IFR GPS ?

Ghost two-six

Ghost two-six

Member
Would like to have IFR WAAS capability with a Dynon Skyview. What else besides the Garmin 430/530 or 650/750 would give me that option ? Hint , I'm looking for something in the sub $5000.00 range. Trying to keep my panel budget under 12k.
Thanks,
Randy
 
RE: WAAS IFR GPS

If you are just wanting a WAAS GPS that will interface with Dynon Skyview here a couple of options.

Trig Avionics TN70
FreeFlight 1201 WAAS/GPS
Grand Rapids GPS-EXT-RAIM

The Trig and FreeFlight are ADSB capable options. The Grand Rapids will be ok for ADSB now but probably not after 2020.

For a standalone GPS Navigator that could also interface to the Skyview, then possbily the Avidyne IFD 540 or the new Bendix King KSN770 might be an option.
 
If he was just wanting WAAS, then the Dynon GPS receiver would be adequate. For IFR it needs to be an IFR GPS with an approach database. I don't think the Trig, FreeFlight or GRT have that. The Avidyne and King units are WAY above budget.

The GTN-625 could fit the bill or the 400W.
 
RE: IFR WAAS GPS

Sorry, I thought he was looking for options other than Garmin. All of the companies I suggested are not GARMIN.
 
Appreciate the help guys. And yes I need a unit that has an approach data base. Kind of pisses me off that the Skyview doesn't have this capability. Having to pay 8k for a unit you won't even look at that much seems annoying to say the least.
 
The SkyView has the approach plates available but like the other EFIS systems out there, it needs a certified nav source to be legal to fly IFR, even though it has a WAAS GPS. Heck even my old 496 is WAAS capable.

What some people do is install something like an SL30 and then go direct with their non certified GPS. I'm not saying it is legal or prudent, I'm just repeating what I have heard.
 
Great topic. I am in this same boat and I thought to myself the other night- say i have 6k to spend. Do I get the gtn 625 or do I get a g3x touch and get a cheapo kln89b ??? I have a grt mini x, kx155 with gs and vizion ap.

I have had my finger on the Trigger of the 400w but watch eBay for sellers with 0 feedback.

Would love to hear more opinions
 
The 400W is probably the lowest cost unit and as was noted, they are coveted. I had a little used one and it sold before it even got listed here on VAF.

Keep an eye on all the channels and eventually you'll see a few.
 
erikpmort said:
Great topic. I am in this same boat and I thought to myself the other night- say i have 6k to spend. Do I get the gtn 625 or do I get a g3x touch and get a cheapo kln89b ??? I have a grt mini x, kx155 with gs and vizion ap.

I have had my finger on the Trigger of the 400w but watch eBay for sellers with 0 feedback.

Would love to hear more opinions
Click to expand...

Be cautious with planning to integrating something like a G3X Touch to a KLN89B. They may not talk nice with each other.

There are a huge number of scammers on EBay that play in the avionics areas. Be very cautious of sellers with no feedback.
 
Gps

Same boat here. Planning Dynon or Garmin glass and debating the IFR navigator choices. I really like the KLN94 and it will do everything I wish to do but have not resolved the interface issues.


Don B

RV 9 Rebuild in Progress
 
WAAS is not the issue. SkyView already has WAAS in the SV-250 GPS module.

To use GPS for primary navigation in IFR during the approach phase, the AIM says:

1. Authorization to fly approaches under IFR using GPS avionics systems requires that:

(a) A pilot use GPS avionics with TSO- C129, or equivalent, authorization in class A1, B1, B3, C1, or C3; and

(b) All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database supplied by the TSO-C129 equipment manufacturer or other FAA approved source. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name from the aircraft navigation database, not just as a manually entered series of waypoints.
Click to expand...

and:

1. Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires that:

(a) GPS navigation equipment used must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent, and the installation must be done in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Supplemental Navigation System, or Advisory Circular AC 20-130A, Airworthiness Approval of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation Sensors, or equivalent. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a does not meet the requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or as a principal instrument flight reference. During IFR operations they may be considered only an aid to situational awareness.
Click to expand...

Note that there is no mention of WAAS. The real mention is the TSO. The equipment must have a TSO authorization, and the database must come from there.

SkyView has a WAAS GPS. We could put all the databases in the world in SkyView, but it still wouldn't be legal to use.

We have more info here:
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1362597418

If you are looking for ADS-B OUT, but not IFR navigation, the units Isaac mentioned are OK (except the Grand Rapids which doesn't have a TSO, and is the same as the Dynon GPS). If you want to navigate with the GPS and not just do ADS-B OUT, then only Garmin, Avidyne, and Bendix King sell new GA units that will do what you need.

If you only want enroute or non-precision (and don't care about ADS-B out), the other devices like a 300XL can work, but note that these are not ADS-B OUT compliant when 2020 comes around. ADS-B OUT needs a precision approach capable GPS (Generically, one with WAAS, but also fully certified)
 
Last edited:
N941WR said:
What some people do is install something like an SL30 and then go direct with their non certified GPS. I'm not saying it is legal or prudent, I'm just repeating what I have heard.
Click to expand...

To make this legal, you call up ATC and say, "How about a vector direct Salt Lake on, uh, a heading of 123?" (Of course you will fly your gps ground track). ATC knows what's up, and will often say okay.
 
Hey Dynon Guy,
The only reason I mention the WAAS is for lower approach mins. Also it's a shame your stuff does not work and play well with stormscope. ADS-B weather is great but Stormscope shows you stuff before it has any precip in it during the building phase. Plus it works outside of the USA.

And by the way if Skyview had approaches, SIDs and STARs I'd fly it all day long TSO or no TSO. You guys should be getting a cut from Garmin for all the guys buying that extra equipment just have this capability.
 
Last edited:
Ghost two-six said:
Hey Dynon Guy,
The only reason I mention the WAAS is for lower approach mins. Also it's a shame your stuff does not work and play well with stormscope. ADS-B weather is great but Stormscope shows you stuff before it has any precip in it during the building phase. Plus it works outside of the USA.

And by the way if Skyview had approaches, SIDs and STARs I'd fly it all day long TSO or no TSO. You guys should be getting a cut from Garmin for all the guys buying that extra equipment just have this capability.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your beef is with Skyview here. Garmin G3X, GRT, MGL....all of the other systems out there do exactly the same. Meaning none of them can, by themselves, serve as a legal enroute or approach capable GPS navigator - WAAS or no WAAS. It's not the fault of the manufacturers; they're limited by the FARs and so are you as a pilot.

Finally, you might not want to continue advertising on a public forum that you're willing to violate the FARs - especially as a self-proclaimed commercial pilot. I actually think those sorts of statements are in contrast with DR's policies here as well.
 
Ghost,

Your complaints should be directed to the FAA. Their TSOs for ifr gps and now, ADSB, are huge overkill, bureaucratic nightmares, which add greatly to the costs. The smaller companies do not have the $$ to devote to compliance, especially given no assurance they would ever recover their costs.
 
IFR and TSO

dynonsupport said:
WAAS is not the issue. SkyView already has WAAS in the SV-250 GPS module.

To use GPS for primary navigation in IFR during the approach phase, the AIM says:



and:



Note that there is no mention of WAAS. The real mention is the TSO. The equipment must have a TSO authorization, and the database must come from there.

SkyView has a WAAS GPS. We could put all the databases in the world in SkyView, but it still wouldn't be legal to use.

We have more info here:
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1362597418

If you are looking for ADS-B OUT, but not IFR navigation, the units Isaac mentioned are OK (except the Grand Rapids which doesn't have a TSO, and is the same as the Dynon GPS). If you want to navigate with the GPS and not just do ADS-B OUT, then only Garmin, Avidyne, and Bendix King sell new GA units that will do what you need.

If you only want enroute or non-precision (and don't care about ADS-B out), the other devices like a 300XL can work, but note that these are not ADS-B OUT compliant when 2020 comes around. ADS-B OUT needs a precision approach capable GPS (Generically, one with WAAS, but also fully certified)
Click to expand...


Question for Dynon....

The above statements seem to say that use of a Dynon unit to provide Altitude Encoding may not be legal for IFR flight if a TSO is truly needed...
 
Gil,
Not sure what the above has to do with altitude encoding in a transponder.

Dynon has a statement of compliance for altitude encoding. Note that ADS-B REQUIRES the same altitude encoder to be used for the transponder and ADS-B OUT data.

Altitude Reporting Compliance Statement for Dynon EFIS systems

Dynon’s EFIS-based systems models EFIS-D10, EFIS-D10A, EFIS-D100, FlightDEK-D180 and SkyView
system comply with FAR 91.217 subpart (b), thus satisfying FAA criteria for use in the Experimental and Light
Sport Aircraft categories.

All Dynon systems referenced above may be tested in accordance with FAR 91.411 per subparts (b)(2) & (b)(3)
and comply with Appendix E – Altimeter System Test and Inspection paragraph (c). See special instructions
below.

Background
Each of Dynon’s EFIS systems has an integrated air data computer and altitude encoder that are software
linked resulting in identical numerical values. The altitude reported to the transponder is always referenced to
pressure altitude (29.92” Hg). Setting the EFIS altimeter barometer to the pressure altitude value will cause the
altimeter to directly display the value being reported to the transponder.

Special Instructions
1) To set the altimeter barometer setting to 29.92” in any of the D10/D100 series devices, press any one of the
middle buttons to bring up the menu system. Next press the button under the BARO menu, then 29.92, then
BACK and finally EXIT. In the SkyView system, use either of the value knobs to select BARO as the controlled
parameter, then rotate the dial to adjust the indicated barometer setting value.

2) When pressure checking any aircraft equipped with Dynon’s special dual ported AOA/Pitot, please note that
this pitot design deliberately has a pin-sized leak hole in each of the two tubes (one each for Pitot & AOA) to
permit draining moisture which might accumulate inside. These holes are located in the middle of the tube at
the bottom. Plugging these holes does not guarantee a pneumatic seal (although one is sometimes present).
The leak that may exist does not affect the performance of the probe but must be taken into account when
doing pressure/leak tests on the pitot system.

3) If the altimeter or altitude encoder output are found to be out of specification, the following single-point
adjustment can be performed by navigating the menus to SETUP>ALTADJ in the D10/D100 series devices or
to HARDWARE CALIBRATION > ADAHRS CALIBRATION > ALTITUDE ADJUST in the SkyView series
devices. In the Altimeter Adjustment menu, the displayed value together with the corresponding encoder output
can be adjusted +/- 500 feet. After making this adjustment, ensure that the altimeter on the instrument meets
the tolerances allowed between 0 and 30,000 feet. If this adjustment does not bring the altimeter on the
instrument to within specification at all attitudes, please contact Dynon Avionics to return for service.
Click to expand...

91.217(b) says that as long as your encoder is the same data as your altimeter (not a blind encoder) that's all you need. No TSO's or other data needed.

ADS-B transmits both pressure and geometric (GPS) altitude. The GPS altitude must come from a compliant device, the pressure must come from the same place as the transponder.
 
az_gila said:
Question for Dynon....

The above statements seem to say that use of a Dynon unit to provide Altitude Encoding may not be legal for IFR flight if a TSO is truly needed...
Click to expand...

Gil,

FAR 91.217 says the altimeter must meet TSO standards OR pass the usual biennial transponder test. (b) OR (c) in the regs. I do believe our Canadian friends don't have this choice.
 
BobTurner said:
Gil,

FAR 91.217 says the altimeter must meet TSO standards OR pass the usual biennial transponder test. (b) OR (c) in the regs. I do believe our Canadian friends don't have this choice.
Click to expand...

But isn't the altitude encoding data also a part of the IFR navigation boxes and the previous text talks about the "system" being TSO?
 
dynonsupport said:
Gil,
Not sure what the above has to do with altitude encoding in a transponder.

Dynon has a statement of compliance for altitude encoding. Note that ADS-B REQUIRES the same altitude encoder to be used for the transponder and ADS-B OUT data.

......

91.217(b) says that as long as your encoder is the same data as your altimeter (not a blind encoder) that's all you need. No TSO's or other data needed.

ADS-B transmits both pressure and geometric (GPS) altitude. The GPS altitude must come from a compliant device, the pressure must come from the same place as the transponder.
Click to expand...

Same as above reply.

Isn't the altitude data part of an IFR system? I'm referencing IFR requirements from your earlier post, not the panel display of altitude or ADS-B....
 
Gil,
I think a lot of things are being mixed up when it comes to altitude, and I'm not 100% sure which reg you are quoting for "IFR altitude".

1) There is pressure altitude for the transponder, from you static system.

2) There is indicated altitude for the pilot, which is #1 corrected for baro.

3) There is geometric altitude from the GPS, use for ADS-B and for IFR approaches.

A GPS NEVER encodes altitude for the transponder. That's illegal. It must be pressure altitude off a static port, not geometric altitude from a GPS.

#1 and #2 are tested with the bi-annual check required by 91.411. No mention of a TSO there, just the check.

#3 requires a device meeting the TSO.
 
dynonsupport said:
Gil,
I think a lot of things are being mixed up when it comes to altitude, and I'm not 100% sure which reg you are quoting for "IFR altitude".

1) There is pressure altitude for the transponder, from you static system.

2) There is indicated altitude for the pilot, which is #1 corrected for baro.

3) There is geometric altitude from the GPS, use for ADS-B and for IFR approaches.

A GPS NEVER encodes altitude for the transponder. That's illegal. It must be pressure altitude off a static port, not geometric altitude from a GPS.

#1 and #2 are tested with the bi-annual check required by 91.411. No mention of a TSO there, just the check.

#3 requires a device meeting the TSO.
Click to expand...

I might be mistaken (it happens a lot....:)...) but isn't the altitude data that is fed into the GPS IFR navigators part of the failure detection system for GPS accuracy?

The 430 IM talks about the baro altitude data input being part of RAIM calculations.

That sounds like a part of an IFR system and should be a TSO source per your earlier posting on TSO and IFR systems.
 
The Garmin GNS non-W install manuals don't say anything about the requirements for the altitude source, just that one is used for RAIM (which is not required) and non-precision VNAV. It's clearly meant to be hooked to your altitude encoder. If the FAA will let you use an altimeter for primary reference in IFR and for your transponder encoding, I see nothing that says it can't be used as a reference here.

Remember, TSO'd devices are TSO'd when installed as described. In an experimental, they're hooked to a non-certified electrical system, but that doesn't de-certify them because the manual doesn't say "hook to a certified electrical system" it says "here are the power requirements." In this case, it just says how to hook it up, not what needs to be on the other end.

The GNS-W (WASS) products don't do RAIM. RAIM died when we switched to augmented GPS. The 430W does use altitude for "Advisory VNAV" - which if you ignore, you will use your altimeter for, which has the same source...
 
dynonsupport said:
The Garmin GNS non-W install manuals don't say anything about the requirements for the altitude source, just that one is used for RAIM (which is not required) and non-precision VNAV. It's clearly meant to be hooked to your altitude encoder. If the FAA will let you use an altimeter for primary reference in IFR and for your transponder encoding, I see nothing that says it can't be used as a reference here.

Remember, TSO'd devices are TSO'd when installed as described. In an experimental, they're hooked to a non-certified electrical system, but that doesn't de-certify them because the manual doesn't say "hook to a certified electrical system" it says "here are the power requirements." In this case, it just says how to hook it up, not what needs to be on the other end.

The GNS-W (WASS) products don't do RAIM. RAIM died when we switched to augmented GPS. The 430W does use altitude for "Advisory VNAV" - which if you ignore, you will use your altimeter for, which has the same source...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top