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Thoughts on Zip Ties in engine compartment

RV8R999

Well Known Member
I've used them before and made a point to always replace them every year during the condition inspection.

What are your thoughts?

Sure makes it easy to keep those wiring bundles tight against the engine mount for easy routing. I never go forward of the engine mount however.

Thanks!

Ken
 
I have a lot of them FWF and have only had one fail (too close to cylinder head, got brittle and cracked). Would have no hesitation in using them again. Replacing them at regular intervals is a good idea. There have been some reports of chafing issues but if one is careful and/or uses some heatshrink on the tie, those issues can be minimized.

greg
 
It's okay as long as you use the black ones rated for high temp and UV rather than the white ones.
 
Thomas and Betts

I was told by a mechanic who works on air tractors that these were very good because of their holding strength.
 
Thomas & Betts Ty Raps

I was told by a mechanic who works on air tractors that these were very good because of their holding strength.
Thanks so much for posting this, I didn't know they invented the cable tie!

I found a great catalog on their site.

It seems like the "normal" ties are rated to 185F, and the "heat stabilized" ones (which are white) are good to 221F. The black ones are UV and "heat stabilized" and are also good to 221F.

They also have some "Extra High Temperature" ones that are rated to 302F. They are light green!

I think when it comes time for FWF, I will invest is some of these high quality ties.
 
I have used them FWF for years - but I am always careful to make sure that they are not chafing the engine mount, and check them at every inspection. There are a lot of folks who say that they have no place in an engine compartment, and I certainly think that you can do better, but there are lots of certified airplanes that have them, so they are not against the rules. I don't use them for hose retention, or anything vitally important, but for wiring purposes, the high temp ones work just fine. I figure that if I have a fire forward of the firewall, wire retention is the least of my problems.

My opinions and experience only,

Paul
 
FWIW, Lowes and other stores now have stainless zip ties available. Not nearly as cheap as nylon, but still pretty cheap. I suspect that these would have chafing issues and/or cut through wire insulation from vibration, so haven't tried them yet. Certainly they would be fireproof.

greg
 
Zip ties on the engine mount.

My RV-9A was inspected by a brand new DAR. Great guy. My plane was his check ride with the FAA, so two G men from maintenance and inspection were there to witness the whole deal. Man, did I get a lookover!!
Now some builders would cringe, but I was thrilled to get the Royal Treatment.
After the exhaustive ordeal, the G men praised my work, and the DAR issued my pink slip with not so much as a blink. Asking the "well...wadahyah think" question to the FAA guys got this response....."Great job Chris, one of the best homebuilts I have ever seen. You need to get those zip ties off of the engine mount".
All I can say is, they are still on there, and I check them at every opportunity.
They haven't sawed my engine mount in half yet!!

Regards,
Chris
 
All I can say is, they are still on there, and I check them at every opportunity.
They haven't sawed my engine mount in half yet!!

Regards,
Chris


I put a wrap of electrical tape (also probably a no-no for FWF) on the engine mount and then the zip tie. Keeps it from chaffing the engine mount and sliding around on the engine mount.

I heard the judges at OSH confiring when looking my airplane over. They where commenting (in a whisper) about the zip ties FWF.
 
They really help with maintenance

I have a mix of zip ties and adel clamps holding wiring harness & wiring FWF, and I am so glad that I did not use adel clamps everywhere, the zip ties are so much easier to remove and replace when you want to get into that wiring. I use automotive heater hose under the ties to protect the the motor mount. A little heavy, but I like it. On the wiring itself I mostly use a wrap of Scotch 2242 -rubber electrical tape. I always have something soft between the zip tie whatever it is holding FWF. On my upper spark plug wiring I have it ziptied to the FI lines, with a little piece of automotive vacuum line around the SS FI line and a little Scotch 2242 around the spark plug wire. Another little thing I learned from growing up on the ocean, I heat shrink the my spade connectors with double wall adhesive lined heatshrink. It keeps the salt air from making it's way into the connection and mechanically prevents the connectors from coming apart. Some would say overkill, but I have seen so much corrosion from salt air causing electrical problems I consider it mandatory.

Hans
 
Work Great

I love the arguments for and against zip ties vs lacing cord. I'll bet many of the same folks, will have a shiny new EFIS backed up by a bunch of archaic steam gauges. Back then, there was no reasonable alternative to tie wires or replacement for steam gauges. Technology advances and new stuff is invented. The zip ties are one example as are the incredible electronics we now have. The internet allows us to get our underwear in a wad over virtually any issue. Entertaining but mostly without merit.

Zip ties are quick, efficient and just as good as lacing cord. The downside of course is the potential scratches and cuts you can get. As Paul noted, they are not illegal and I'm sure never will be.

For use FWF, get the high temp versions and use with confidence. I had many standard Home Depot zip ties in my engine compartment that lasted through the high temps we deal with in AZ. I have since replaced all of them with the high temp units.

For any contact with the engine mount, I simply use one wrap of the red silicon tape (Rescue tape) before using zip ties or adel clamps. After attaching and cutting a zip tie, I use a razor blade and trim it flush with the housing. In most cases you can get to them.

I have also started using the new "belt" style ties. With a little practice they work much better, look great and you don't get cut.

Finally, the helicopters I fly for work run about 3 million each, all turbine powered. 2 of them made by Eurocopter, the other by Bell. Behind the panel, under the engine cowling and the transmission cowling you'll find only zip ties, no lacing cord. This has got to say something.
 
...Finally, the helicopters I fly for work run about 3 million each, all turbine powered. 2 of them made by Eurocopter, the other by Bell. Behind the panel, under the engine cowling and the transmission cowling you'll find only zip ties, no lacing cord. This has got to say something.


It says a lot... First thing that comes to mind is that these are manufactured by employees who are paid by the hour... The company wants the aircraft kicked out the door as fast as possible and zip ties are "good enough"...

Zip ties are great and may "meet" requirements, but I still think Adel clamps and string tie is "better".
 
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I agree adel clamps are far superior in strength and reliability but they are a royal pain to install, they are much heavier and when using to secure cable runs - overkill. Plus they decrease the workable unobstructed volume in the engine compartment since they stand-off about 1.5" from the engine mount for the length of the cable run.

The engineer in me agrees with the hourly worker - if its quicker, lighter, easier, and yes CHEAPER and it does the job then it is better. However, since we are all building our own "custom" airplanes to each his own.

At the Naval Test Pilot School there is a slogan above one of the classrooms that reads "Better is the enemy of good enough". I agree.

2c,

Ken
 
examples

I've read this thread regarding zip ties and started wondering if I had made a mistake in using them FWF. Mine are home depot quality except below the engine where I used high temp. I always inspect them at the annual and have not seen any obvious problems. 4 years and counting and getting ready for my next condition inspection. After reading this I think I will replace them all with new ones. But I am going to leave a few in place to see how long they last.

Does anyone have any examples or pictures of where zip ties actually caused damage to their engine mount? or some other real problem?

thanks
 
After attaching and cutting a zip tie, I use a razor blade and trim it flush with the housing.

Or you can use a tie wrap puller such as a Panduit GS2B. I've found 'em on ebay used for not too much. They make tensioning and flush-cutting one-step and pretty much idiotproof.

cgs2b-b.jpg
 
The engineer in me agrees with the hourly worker - if its quicker, lighter, easier, and yes CHEAPER and it does the job then it is better. However, since we are all building our own "custom" airplanes to each his own.

At the Naval Test Pilot School there is a slogan above one of the classrooms that reads "Better is the enemy of good enough". I agree.
To expand on this, every airplane's design and construction can be made better. However, at some point, the airplane has to be judged "good enough and turned loose to go fly, unless you want the aviation version of the Winchester Mansion, or if you want to be the aviation version of Chip Foose, who regularly spends over $1,000,000 building a custom hot rod. As you say, it's up to each of us to decide what is "good enough". Zip ties are good enough for me for most applications.

Applying the concept to one's flying skills is a little different - our skills should always be improving as we age and gather experiences, and those skills quickly deteriorate when not applied. The same isn't true of an airplane's design - it's the same as it was built until we change it.

TODR
 
As I understand it -- if I do -- the problem with zip ties on the motor mount is that they can capture grit and that grit, not the zip tie, starts abrading the motor mount. Adel clamps are the high class (not to mention high cost and high hassle) solution. Of course, once the grit has chewed through the paint on the motor mount, then you've got a repair job.
 
Quoting myself...
Go here and read paragraph 11-96(b) and (o), then read paragraph 11-146, (a) and (b).

Left alone long enough, a ziptie will cut through the engine mount tubing like a saw - dirt and oil gets between the plastic & steel and acts like a wet saw. I just replaced part of an engine mount on a Bell 412 helicopter due to it being damaged beyond limits by zipties holding drainlines in place. It's been just about a year since this aircraft had last been in to see us (it's in for an annual); there were no zipties on the engine mounts when it last left us.

If you don't want to use Adel clamps everywhere, pick some place other than FWF on your RV...
 
Not if you can help it...

I've seen a lot of damage from(loose install) zip ties and firmly reccomend adel clamps, use the force.......... Don't win a Darwin Award.
 
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Or you can use a tie wrap puller such as a Panduit GS2B. I've found 'em on ebay used for not too much. They make tensioning and flush-cutting one-step and pretty much idiotproof.
I picked up two of these for $10 from Boeing Surplus back when they used to sell such things. I now keep one in my tool box at work and the other at home. We had a Panduit rep in to my office a number of years ago who saw mine and asked where I got it... I told him, and he said that it's likely that one of the Boeing employees had dropped it in the "scrap" bin and was planning to pick it up in the Surplus store the next day for home use. Apparently that was quite common (maybe it's why there's no Boeing Surplus anymore...). He said they were about $250 each new.
 
.

On the thrusty 737 which pays my bills, I've never seen any zipties.

In the wheel well, which is the place where you really can see how Boeing wire their planes, only lacing cord and adelclamps are used...

Since Boeing doesn't use zipties, they must have a reason...?
 
Zip ties

We've had regular quality zip ties in the engine compartment of our Pitts S-2A for 18 years and 1400 hours with no problem. Wrap a layer of tape around mount before zip tying, and often had two ties overlapped to create a small standoff. Our A&P also often put a blob of high temp RTV as a cushion. So far, no problems apparent. If any look deteriorated it's easy to replace them.
 
Ziptie colour

..beware the colour-code for temp rating....I found a big pack of black and white assorted ties at the dollarama store. at 3 cents each, they likely aren't rated, just coloured pretty. (the green ones were in the garden tool area!)
Automotive engine compartments really cook these days, so I had a look, and they use a LOT of plastic fasteners in there; they are a bit more exotic than zip-ties, but seem to be of similar material.
Some are pre-padded to be kind to cables and such, and look more professional. (If you can find 'em at your local NAPA autoparts by the bag, probably not too pricey.)
 
Although I love classic airplanes, I'm all in favor of advancing the art of airplane building.
Zip ties have a lot to offer. I'm filling up my engine compartment with expensive and original doo-dads right now, but still have yet to install all the clamps etc.
I would like something lighter, less expensive and more user friendly than adel clamps.
If zip ties have short comings, then taping the sub structure sounds like a work around for the abrasion jarhead mentioned.
I have a work tray about half full of adel clamps of various sizes...the weight adds up.
Sometimes I go to the auto junk yard to see how cars are built, and how they fail. Lots of different fasteners and ties there.
 
Since Boeing doesn't use zipties, they must have a reason...?
Boeing doesn't use piston engines or props either. They design aircraft to last 40,000+ hr and 20,000+ cycles, and they charge $50-150MM a pop. I'm not trying to build a 777 that's going to be flown 14 hours every day for 25 years.

TODR
 
There are lots of zip ties (panduits) on Boeing aircraft. Some customers order their planes with lacing some with zip ties. High vibration areas and those exposed to the elements get mostly laced.

I know this as I have installed thousands on Boeing aircraft.

I prefer lacing, but nothing wrong with zip ties. Zip ties are much easier to install. I am using a mostly lacing, but in hard to reach areas zip ties. I will try to avoid zip ties FWF as lacing will hold up better IMO.
 
I cut lenghts of clear tubing [fish tank type] the same circumference as the engine mount tube. I run the tie thru the clear tube, and it in effect works as my anti chafe cushion.
Therefore, there is never any contact with zip tie and mount.
 
If you're using zipties FWF, at least use quality zipties. That bag of 100-for-$3 at HF, NT, or whatever bargain store is near your location, just isn't gonna cut it in this application. Use a quality mfgr. like AMP/Tyco, Thomas & Betts (what we use at my .civ job), or Panduit. Personally, I prefer the metal barb style.

If you don't have a Panduit (or similar) tool like Dan posted, go to Home Depot and buy the Crescent 2-piece flush-cutting pliers kit for $14. Once you've pulled the ziptie tight, use the flush cutters to cut off the free end, flush with the "head". This will save you from dozens of ziptie scratches up and down your hands, wrists, and forearms further down the road. Don't use those cutters for cutting anything but zipties, and they'll last a LONG time.

Once more - I do not recommend using zipties directly against engine mounts or hard lines, and I do not recommend using zipties to secure wiring bundles to the airframe FWF.
 
Damaged engine mount: pictures anybody?

I have been hearing this "zip-ties schafing through the engine mount" for years now. Please someone, put up some real pictures, than we can discuss about a real thing. I am not buying it till I have seen it!
 
Jarhead - then what would you use zipties for? I agree with the last poster - I've had zipties all over the engine mount of my last plane for nearly 20 years and never saw a scratch (other than on my arms). I agree using high temps, high quality is the way to go.
 
Thanks!!!!

I have been hearing this "zip-ties schafing through the engine mount" for years now. Please someone, put up some real pictures, than we can discuss about a real thing. I am not buying it till I have seen it!

Thanks Tonny for stating this. I was getting ready to ask the same question. So much stuff on the Internet becomes fact without quantifying data. I'm sure it is a possibility but where is the evidence. Why aren't engines falling off planes in mass? Why aren't there daily posts of, "zip ties cause complete electrical failure in my plane?" Simple answer is that it isn't occurring.

Some have said Boeing doesn't use them, others have said they do. Some 737's may predate zip ties. Others have said companies use them because they are cheap and fast and they need to get the product out the door. Not really accurate.

Bottom line, they are safe. Use the right ones FWF and do wire and fuel line protection as you would do with any securing system. Do what makes you feel best, be it, lacing cord or zip ties.
 
Well said Darwin! I know that it is possible for zip ties or anything to wear a whole in an engine mount under the right conditions - I've seen a rubber hose chafing against a mount that did this over a long time on a certified airplane - but you can easily inspect for this.

I personally don't use lacing cord FWF cause it can get oily up there, and then the waxed string gets messy, and ughh! I do use a lot of fire retardant "snake skin" to make the engine compartment look pretty though.

Paul
 
I have been hearing this "zip-ties schafing through the engine mount" for years now. Please someone, put up some real pictures, than we can discuss about a real thing. I am not buying it till I have seen it!
You don't have to buy it - I'm not selling anything. ;)
I don't make a habit of taking pictures of damaged parts on a customer's aircraft. You never know when someone in management is going to get upset about that, and I don't have my cellphone on my person when I'm working - it stays in the "personal" drawer of my toolbox. Maybe someone else can provide some photographic evidence.


Jarhead - then what would you use zipties for? I agree with the last poster - I've had zipties all over the engine mount of my last plane for nearly 20 years and never saw a scratch (other than on my arms). I agree using high temps, high quality is the way to go.
- Making wiring bundles.
- Making wire spacers for ignition harnesses.
- Securing the "snake skin" that Paul referenced. I prefer Expando FR Plus.
For FWF apps, that's about it.


Thanks Tonny for stating this. I was getting ready to ask the same question. So much stuff on the Internet becomes fact without quantifying data. I'm sure it is a possibility but where is the evidence. Why aren't engines falling off planes in mass? Why aren't there daily posts of, "zip ties cause complete electrical failure in my plane?" Simple answer is that it isn't occurring.

Some have said Boeing doesn't use them, others have said they do. Some 737's may predate zip ties. Others have said companies use them because they are cheap and fast and they need to get the product out the door. Not really accurate.

Bottom line, they are safe. Use the right ones FWF and do wire and fuel line protection as you would do with any securing system. Do what makes you feel best, be it, lacing cord or zip ties.

Folks, the original poster asked for thoughts on the use of zipties in the engine compartment. I never said "Don't use them at all!", I said IN MY EXPERIENCE as an A&P mechanic, the use of zipties directly against engine mounts and hard lines is a bad idea, because over time they can damage the mount/line. I even provided an FAA reference. I've seen the damage numerous times, I've been the person who found the damage several times, and I've been the person who replaced the damaged parts several times.



Bottom line (well, lines):
If you're an RV builder, and you want to use zipties on your engine mount, go ahead. You're the manufacturer, and it's your airplane and your money. But don't be surprised if your DAR or FSDO rep tells you to get the zipties off the engine mount when they inspect the airplane.

If you're an RV buyer, don't be surprised if your A&P tells you to get the zipties off the engine mount when he/she does the conditional inspection.

That's this A&P's opinion; it's worth every dime you paid for it.
 
Zip ties along engine mount tubes are OK?

I saw installations of a man who built 6+ RV's and noticed that ignition, CHT and EGT probe wires are collected together and tied along the engine mount tubes with white zip ties (until passing through the firewall).

Apart from the problem that maybe white zip ties are not the heat resistent ones, I recall to have somewhere read (Bingelis) that this is not a safe procedure, since plastic ties over time will scuff powder coating, thus determining rust corrosion.

Is this true? How should I secure mines? Zip ties or adel clamps? Adel clamps securing method will be less tidy than using zip ties...

Thanks.
 
Inspectors in Canada don't want to see anything zip tied directly to an engine mount... they want you to link a couple of zip ties together in this case. Personally, I didn't like the idea of zip ties on my engine mount tubes, so I used Adel clamps all over the place. A pain to install, but a nice way to do it IMO. In a couple of places where i used zip ties (e.g. for my blast tubes), I cut strips of the rubber baffle material and wrapped this around the engine mount tubes under the zip ties.
 
Almost as bad as primer wars......

Many will say it doesn't matter. Many will say it does. YMMV.

Mine will be 100% adel clamps though...

My logic is pretty simple. There's absolutely no chance of something going wrong if you don't try to cut corners. Use the right stuff from the beginning.

Phil

In the spirit of the thread.....

fireman_using_fire_extinguisher_lg_clr.gif
 
Another technique to prevent chafing or abrasion on the powdercoat is to first wrap the tube with Uniwrap silicone tape and then tie wrap wires as you need them. This absorbs the vibration. (Aircraft Spruce PN 09-30450)

Doug.
 
"Old wives tales"

To me this is still “old wives tales”. I asked for “proof” (pictures) in a few threads about this same topic, in the last few years, so far. Guess what? Never seen a picture of any alleged damage to the engine mount yet!
But……. If you have any proof, please show it here and I will eat a broom (typical Dutch saying)

Regards, Tonny
 
To me this is still ?old wives tales?. I asked for ?proof? (pictures) in a few threads about this same topic, in the last few years, so far. Guess what? Never seen a picture of any alleged damage to the engine mount yet!
But??. If you have any proof, please show it here and I will eat a broom (typical Dutch saying)

Regards, Tonny
Yea, I threw down that same challenge years ago and I have yet to see any real, meaningful proof:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=24387&highlight=tie+wrap

Since that post, the engine mount on my -6A has yet to show the slightest sign of wear at any point where a zip tie makes contact with it. Apparently, opinions vary. A highly seasoned IA laughed when I told him about zip ties cutting through engine mounts. The brittle 18 year old zip ties tightly affixed to the engine mount on my old C-150 did not so much as scratch its paint. Still, if ultimately proven wrong I may not willing to eat a broom, but I would welcome some honest to goodness food for thought.

adgtux.jpg
 
Even with the lack of a controlled scientific experiment to "prove" the existence of this problem, I am taking steps to avoid the possibility. I believe the anecdotal evidence provided by Rivethead is sufficient. It is simple and inexpensive in terms of time, money and added weight to implement one of the various methods proposed here. If it was expensive, I'd require more "proof."

If the problem is not real, the folks who took these steps are out a little time and money. If the problem is real, the ramifications for the the folks who didn't take these steps are significant.

You decide...
 
There is a 'video' homebuilder tip on the EAA website that suggests using shrink wrap over the zip tie. Just measure the length of shrink wrap needed by wrapping it around the tube, cut it, slip it over the zip tie and shrink it on.

Helps protect the tube as well as keeps the zip tie from rotating on the tube...Cheap and light weight...
 
Zip Ties

He explained the cause to me. Dirt and oil get in between the tie and the tube and wear on the tube by abrasion.

You're saying that same dirt and oil DOES NOT get under an adel clamp?

The company I work for has installed wiring onto engine mount tubes with zip ties since 1973 (over 3000 airplanes!), and I'm not aware of a single service issue. And trust me, those 3000 airplanes are the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO for dirt and oil!!!

Count me among those who would sure like to see a single photo of proof. I'd be willing to eat crow, but not without proof.

CDE
 
By the time you wrap your mount tubes with tape or rubber hose, shrink wrap your zip ties, and add still more rubber hose as standoffs...

...wouldn't it be quicker just to use real aircraft hardware? It would sure look better. And there is NO debate that Adels are the "right" way to do it.
 
The thing is, you can find an exception to just about EVERY rule if the sample size is large enough. The truth is, there are many certified airplanes that use zip-ties on engine-mount tubes and are blessed by the FAA. I am absolutely certain that a zip-tie has eaten away an engine mount tube under the right conditions (I am not going to call folks liars that have seen it), but I think that it is an extremely RARE occurrence. I bet that there are stories about Adel clamps as well - we just haven't heard them.

Remember the golden rule about about anecdotal evidence...."NEVER use absolutes"...;)

Paul (with a few zip-ties on the engine mount, as well as some Adel clamps....)
 
not to mention there really is no "rule" in the first place with respect to zip ties and/or adel clamps so those who say "do it right, don't cut corners" could be talking about zip-ties or adel clamps depending upon which camp they are in.

Im using both. My criteria is time based...if it takes me longer than 5 minutes to install the adel clamp then after I throw it on the ground and stomp on it in frustration and use a zip-tie in its place. So far I have about 50/50 mix.

Although I've begun perfecting the double adel clamp instal technique using a 2" AN3 bolt as a guide. I put the first adel clamp around the engine mount and the other on the 2" bolt. The the 2" bolt goes through the holes of the adel clamp on the mount. I then use a pair a thin vice grips to hold them all together, remove the 2" bolt and slide the screw in and put the nut on. Works like a champ and can now do most of the in under two minutes. Try it.

Ken
 
My solution

Here's my solution. I used Adel clamps for many of the fluid lines, etc. There was an article in this month's Sport Aviation that showed how to make these simple stand-offs, so I went with them for the wiring across the top of the engine mount. Just like Rivethead's, but I like the idea of the clear UHMW tape better than the orange tape I used.
enginecompartmentstando.jpg

It may not be the prettiest solution, but I think it will be safe, effective, inexpensive, and durable.
And, yes, I know I need to support the silver-colored EGT cables in the lower right side of the picture. Waiting on the proper Adel clamp to attach to the rear of the baffle.
YMMV.
 
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To me this is still “old wives tales”. I asked for “proof” (pictures) in a few threads about this same topic, in the last few years, so far. Guess what? Never seen a picture of any alleged damage to the engine mount yet!
But……. If you have any proof, please show it here and I will eat a broom (typical Dutch saying)

Regards, Tonny

Doing my 3rd annual condition inspection after 350 hours. I used zip ties in several places to hold wire bundles to the engine mounts always thinking I would replace them with adel clamps. My engine mount is pre-powder coat and I primed it and put epoxy paint on it. Still no signs of chaffing for anything thing on the upper part of the engine. I few slight wear marks for a couple that are lower on mount (guessing it has more vibration or airflow causing motion) which I have wrapped the tube with tape and put new tie wraps on. I am replacing several of the upper ones with adel clamps this year only because i think it looks neater.
Almost as bad as primer wars......

Many will say it doesn't matter. Many will say it does. YMMV.

Mine will be 100% adel clamps though...

Don't you just love experimentals where we can all do it how we want to.
 
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