Engine prices pricing you out?

[dwranda]

Had I not started building 7 years ago and bought my brand new engine from a guy here on VAF 4 years ago who sold off his project theres no way I would be doing this. I got a brand new Mattituck IO360 with 2 pmags for less than those 2012 prices listed above. It hurt at the time, but wow am I glad now that I went that route instead of a core like I was trying to find. I feel really sorry for those trying to finish off a plane now.

[PhatRV]

If I shop for a used engine from a twin, does it matter if the engine is from the left hand side or right hand side?

And what is needed to convert an engine to spin the normal way in a single engine aircraft?

[jrs14855]

Only if it's a counter rotating airplane. Converting a counter rotating engine is not practical.

[tjo]

Yep, engines have gotten expensive to the point of being prohibitively so. I bought one last year before the 3/15 price increase, if I bought it this year it would be $9K more and it's just a 4 cyl. Oof...

The same type of thing has happened with automotive crate engines, just at a lower overall level. These are the facts. The fix to a situation like this is to make it more friendly for companies to build and sell such machines, meaning less regulation, fewer roadblocks to market entry, relief from frivolous lawsuits, things like that. Unfortunately the trend seems to be exactly the opposite; more regulation, limited fuel options, increased, or no change in liability, higher energy costs, etc.

If something doesn't change, aviation will slowly die.

Tim

[dstates]

There are so many reasons I want my own new experimental amateur built aircraft, but if anything causes me to stop my current RV-14 build it will be engine cost. Right now I'm expecting to have to sell my Cessna 170 and that will pay for the engine and avionics. I'm dreading the day I have to place that order.

[71459]

The "cheapest" engine I see on Van's site is $40,000! Yes, unless these prices drop back for some reason, this will eventually kill the homebuilt airplane world for the average guy. Just one more (of many) wonderful aspects of American life snuffed out. What a sad, race-to-the-bottom trajectory we're on.

[Kmdpilot]

I expect this conglomeration of parts to serve me for well beyond the hours I will ask of it under my ownership. The experience of assembling the engine with my A&P friend literally over my shoulder was another gratifying plus. The price of a new engine if I were building today would give me pause... probably beyond my reach.[/quote]

I think there will end up being downward pressure on used prices as well though. As new engine prices keep going up faster than the rate of the national debt, people look for used engines increasing the demand on that market and then increasing the demand on overhaul shops, increasing the cost of both. In some areas of the country it is already difficult to get a timely annual or an overhaul as is. But, like all things aviation, it will cycle up and down. Just takes time out of the pandemic for all those with kits to realize they are not working on them anymore. All those newly minted PPLs from the pandemic don't have time to fly. I think the amount of students gunning for the airlines will also create over saturation as well. All of these factors will most likely (hopefully) lead to a correction in GA.

[gasman]

From Forbes Apr 28, 2021,

When Textron Aviation announced production of a 75th anniversary edition of the Beechcraft Bonanza earlier this month, it reminded aviation enthusiasts that the piston-single classic is the longest continuously produced aircraft in history. But the 2022 75th anniversary Bonanza’s likely million-dollar price tag is also a reminder that, in the eyes of many pilots, general aviation aircraft manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the market.

In aviation forums and at small airports, aircraft owners and pilots offer a familiar refrain. The prices of general aviation (GA) airplanes are unsustainable.

In reaction to an article on the special edition Bonanza, one commenter wrote:

“In 1970 a Cessna 172 was 1.3 times the average salary in the U.S. and a Bonanza was 5 times the average. Today it is 6 times the average salary for a 172 and 14 times the average salary for a Bonanza. Anyone else wonder how [the manufacturers] are staying in business?”

According to Plane & Pilot magazine, the price of a new Cessna 172 was $12,500 in 1970 and the average salary in the United States was $6,186. In 2021 dollars the 1970 sticker would equate to about $85,000.

But with the current ask for a new 172 at $432,000 minimum, the ubiquitous Skyhawk has even outpaced the Bonanza (which cost around $50,000 new in 1970) in terms of cost growth.

Piper’s venerable Cherokee, the latest edition of which - the Piper 100i - debuted at the recent Sun ‘n Fun airshow in Florida, cost about $13,000 in 1970. Today, the price for one ranges from $259,000 to $285,000. Chinese-owned Cirrus Aircraft has only been making production piston-singles since 1995 but the list price for its parachute-equipped, fixed-gear SR-22 was $755,000 in 2020.

[Fred.Stucklen]

I finished my RV-7A in 2008 with an engine I bought from Matituck on Long Island in 2007. The cost was $35K. Since I'm now running that engine past TBO, and will eventually need to replace it, I've purchased a replacement Lycoming IO-360-B1B via Vans (special order) for just over $48K (August delivery date if it doesn't slip) I'm expecting to be able to sell the original engine core for at least the new engine cost increase.

The original engine is still running fine, has great compression numbers, doesn't burn more than a quart of oil in 25 Hrs, has no oil leaks. I'll probably get another 500 - 1000 hrs out of it or more! I'm buying the new engine now (with long term storage) so I have it when I need it.

[Kmdpilot]

[quote=gasman;1673392]From Forbes Apr 28, 2021,

When Textron Aviation announced production of a 75th anniversary edition of the Beechcraft Bonanza earlier this month, it reminded aviation enthusiasts that the piston-single classic is the longest continuously produced aircraft in history. But the 2022 75th anniversary Bonanza’s likely million-dollar price tag is also a reminder that, in the eyes of many pilots, general aviation aircraft manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the market".

Just my opinion and sort of off topic: the inflation of most things, housing, cars, GA planes, etc is really driven by administrative and executive bloat. One poster earlier complains about a McDonald's worker making 16-20 bucks and hour as an easy excuse without understanding the actual problems. The issue is that over the years, we have seen corporations posting better and better profits, better exec comp, more execs and more admin bloat. We see it in nearly any corporate level business from Textron, higher education, healthcare, banking, etc. I work in healthcare and it has never been more apparent in that industry. Think about all of the people with their hand in the pie and think about he compensation of those people. And I am not even talking about the doctors and nurses. The hospital has multiple executives and each executive has a team of administrators working for them. All making high salaries and most of them not providing a billable service. That is just the hospital. Now think of the pharma companies and all the sales people, the marketing execs, the heads of HR, the financial officers, the consultants, and we haven't even gotten to the c-suite yet. All making high salaries. Medical device is the same. Add in the insurance companies. So, the next time you see your doc for a minor infection and see a bill for $500 or more and the prescription costs $100, think about how much of those costs are going to pay all of the administrative folks with the insurance company, the clinic/hospital, the pharmacy, the PBM, the delivery company that got the med to the pharmacy. Back in the day, many, many days ago, you went to your doc and they had a small office. Their overhead was the office and their nurse who also answered the phones. You went to the pharmacy that was a local pharmacy with low costs to operate. You paid the people that provided you the service. Now we have to pay for all of the people that have squeezed on in behind the scenes also wanting you to pay for them too, and they want to be paid well, many paid better than the doc, the nurse and the pharmacist.
My point is, it is not the 16/hr worker whose min wage has not kept up with inflation over the past several decades that is killing us. It is the massive growth of administrative bloat in industries like healthcare, higher education, and corporate America that is killing us. Instead of having a lot of smaller companies that can work efficiently and compete keeping costs down, we have once again allowed for the growth of mega corporations that require more and more people to keep them running. The bigger they get, the less cost effective they become by needing to hire more people that do not directly contribute to production of the product and only work to serve the giant corporate beast. This is why a cessna today costs way more compared to average income than back in the day. The average wage growth has fallen well short of the growth in executive and administrative comp as well as corporate profits for decades. And this is before we consider frivolous lawsuits.
Again, just my onion.