Engine prices pricing you out?

[jcarne]

Certainly did. I was going to start a -10 but engine prices (and kit prices) have priced me out. I'm now looking to get into a club when I need a 4 seater.

[Ironflight]

I have no crystal ball to see the future, but I have been around a long time, and can tell folks about the past…. For many years, people who built airplanes rarely put new motors on them - they found a core and rebuilt it, or just found a running engine off a wreck and hung it on their airframe. Proven motor with lots of hours on it - and a majority of people used the airplanes for local flying, rarely putting more than a few hundred hours on them - so a thousand or fifteen-hundred hour motor was perfect for them. It got you in teh air for a reasonable amount of money.

When I started my -8 in the early part of this century, I thought about a used motor, but at that time, a new O-360 could be had for a little less than $20K, and it made sense to just go new. But as prices started creeping up, we all wondered when that would be reasonable. Now with prices soaring out of control, I have a feeling that used engines might once again become a thing. How many hours do you REALY expect to fly your creation? And if you exceed that, rebuilding is a good project (unless parts prices continue to go out of control - in which case, the industry is really in trouble).

Yes, alternative engines are out there, but adding a significantly lighter engine top an engine design might sound good until you realize that it has to go farther out front, which can mess up yaw stability. Airplanes are designed around specific engines, and changing them can have effects that you might not predict.

So watch that used engine market if you’re concerned - there are only so many storm-damaged airplanes out there…..

Paul

[PhatRV]

I am keeping an eye for a future RV15 project and the price of engine is given me a second thought.

On the subject of traditional engine, is there a reason for not using Continental on our RVs? They are certainly competitive priced in the used engine market

[lr172]

We need a recession here soon to get things back in check. Prices keep going up, but it doesn't seem to make any dent in demand. This is basic economics. Lyc saw an opportunity to grossly inflate prices without ANY impact on demand. This is a tempting opportunity in a free economy. Many folks worry about the damage to their long term reputation from doing this, but others feel insulated from it. As long as companies like Lyc have a one year wait list for their engines, I expect the increases just will not stop. Its not like the aviation folks feel bad about setting prices WELL above what anyone would expect.

At some point the craziness will stop and that one year wait list will change to a warehouse full of engine parts that no one wants to buy. The good news is that the majority of these crazy increases are just straight profit and prices will come back down to something more in line with the inflationary delta on top of the old prices. If an IO-360 gets to $50K and stays there, you can expect a resurgence in alternative engines. Look at the thread from the guy with the sidewinder install also read the recent EAA article about the guy in Indiana playing with the Honda L engines. There is still a path for affordable homebuilts; It just won't be erector set simplicity - just like the old days. Also remember that a decent percent of kits never get built. A year or two after the recession hits, I expect a large supply and small demand for un-finished kits. I have no doubt that the crazy increase in kit sales will directly translate to a crazy increase in un finished kits once the frenzy ends. Lets not forget that a year or two ago we could sell a two year old car for the price of a new car. No longer true.

Its all supply and demand based and at the moment we are more than a bit unbalanced in our sector. Fully convinced that is a short term trend and not the shape of things to come.

Larry

[Bill Boyd]

Like many, I went the used route. No regrets so far. According to my photo collection metadata, it was 4 years ago in April we did the engine: core case, crank, rods, accessory case and gears all yellow tagged - $10k. New Superior cylinders and cam, Bendix injection overhaul, fee for A&P to supervise it all going together: another $15k. Add on what I paid for alternators, starter, SDS CPi2 ignition, governor and I was able to get a fresh overhauled IO-540 on the nose for right at $30k.

Like Paul said, I expect this conglomeration of parts to serve me for well beyond the hours I will ask of it under my ownership. The experience of assembling the engine with my A&P friend literally over my shoulder was another gratifying plus. The price of a new engine if I were building today would give me pause... probably beyond my reach.

[gmcjetpilot]

Back in the old days there was not all these NEW Lycs to buy. by Lycoming, Superior, ECI. It was used or Lycoming only through Van's (which by todays prices a bargain).

I bought a used O360 from a Piper Apache twin upgraded to 180HP that was parted out for a tiny little accident. I overhauled it myself with help from an AI, and sending parts major components to repair station.

I was into it for less than $10K...long block, Minus: Carb Overhaul, Ignition, Prop Gov, Starter and Alternator. I got the engine with firewall forward. I sold off: Feathering Prop & Gov, exhaust, big starter, big alternator.... made some cash.

The thing is get a CHEAP (but good) core. Don't pay too much. Better find a used but airworthy running engine with history, logs running recently. Often the best source for these running O320's or O360's are otherRV'ers upgrading to the latest greatest fire breathing angle valve IO360/ IO390.

If you go to big salvage dealers like Wentworth they want a premium for a core. If two builders need O540's or IO540's for their RV10's, look to buy a Piper Aztec (twin with 540's). You might get the whole thing for $10K. By the time you part airframe out you might make your money back. It will still cost $25k to $35K an engine to overhaul and accessorize.... Two fresh engines for the price of one.

[rmartingt]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

By the time you part airframe out you might make your money back.

A few years ago I was looking at the "buy an airframe and part it out" option, but realized that the costs (time and money) of shipping/storage/breakdown/disposal of the rest of the airframe would come out to about the same as if I just sat and kept saving up money. The equation may have changed by this point, though.

Ended up buying a torn-down, inspected, and tagged core off Barnstormers and built the engine up with the help of an A&P friend. Haven't run it yet, so fingers crossed...

[CaptPausert]

The engine prices priced me out of building an RV-10. I really wanted a four seater but the prices just got too much. Backed off to an RV-9 would have gone with an RV-14 but I don't want to invest that much time and money in an aircraft with an engine that requires 100LL until the fuel mess gets straightend out. Also if you are talking about getting a core and having an overhaul shop rework it you should check the prices there as they have also skyrocketed. Talked to one of them last year and the prices of the components had gone up by 30% in a year. A new 540 is like 75k and a completely overhauled one by a shop is north of 60k from what I was told

[abwaldal@gmail.com]

Just go to MacDonald's and see the sign out front advertising for new employees.
It reads like base wages of $16.25 and a manager starting at $21.25 per hour.
Ya think those HIGH wages doesn't translate to higher engine prices.
I'm going to have a birthday in a few days and it will be number 72.
It's all just bigger numbers.
BUT, I will agree that engines have jumped ahead real fast.
I used to build houses for 42 years, quit two years ago.
Just sold a 2000 foot ranch for $575,000.00 that I would have been glad to get $300,000.00 two years ago when I built it had I wanted to sell it. (I turned it into a short term rental)
Oh ya I offered it out for $40,000.00 BELOW local market so's to sell it fast.
We all realize price increases and have to live with them.
My three cents worth. Art
STILL !!!!!!! $16.25 starting wage at a burger joint. Go figure?

[N82VM]

2012 bundle show price YIO-360-M1B $26,200
2019 bundle show price YIO-360-M1B $27,700

According to the Bureau of Labor and Satiistics
2012 dollars $26,200= 2019 dollars 29,341

Since Lycoming was charging $27,700 in 2019 it actually got cheaper. Apples to apples they should have been charging $29,341.

No one was complaining when there prices barely moved and they increased LESS than inflation. Let that sink in.