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What would you do when you saw a builder error ?

lucaperazzolli

Well Known Member
Last Saturday I went to the Italian annual EAA meeting, it was a great VFR day and I spent all the time with old friends talking about our aircraft stories.

The italian RV community is growing and building precision too, but ...

next to my airplane was parked a new RV-7, the judges were investigating for the annual prize and a crowd of people was talking around.

I saw a strange 'position' of the rudder and when the plane was alone, I took a look more precisely.

Here are some photos and you can see that the rudder was installed too far from its natural position with few rudder bearing threads into the nutplate ( SAFETY CONCERN ! );

as reference I placed two pictures (white rudder) with a standard rudder installation (as per plans).

Just for curiosity´s sake, I checked the elevator and I verified that with one in its zero incidence position the other was higher of 5 degrees !

I walked away, scratching my head….

What would you have done in this case ?

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Keep it simple .. Ask the guy who is the owner ... how many threaded do you have left ..as this does not look like as per the drawing ...
 
Clear Conscious

I would HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING. I can?t imagine reading an accident report as a result of this mistake. IF the ?shoe? were reversed I would want someone to say something to me.
 
Say something privately.

Luca, since I consider this a brotherhood, I'd tell the owner nicely that you're concerned about two few threads in the nutplate and that this issue is a serious safety concern and show him the plans and possibly a rudder hinge in a nutplate like his and that the threads are not protruding on the other side.

Best,
 
Same

As soon as you bring in it up, likely the guy is going to look at you like your from outer space and be on the defensive.

Personally I would just let him know (1 on 1, no others around) that it didnt look right and was bugging you. "Thought I would point it out as I have been stressing over it for a bit once I saw it". "Vans was very specific about the number of threads, I had to adjust mine" Leave it at that. You did your bit, and if anyone ever approached me on an issue with my plane I would appreciate it being quiet, polite and I would absolutely spend some time seeing if there really is an issue. All you can do, definetely worth the trouble and awkwardness of saying something.

We all have made mistakes, missed something or just had a dumb moment. Help each other as best we can, while being a class act. If that doesnt work, punch him out and walk away.:D
 
What would you do

I have mentioned things to builders , some appreciate the "heads up " others not so much . I now only point out things that are realy a possible disaster .
Before I finish my 8 there will be a group go over , easy to fix it on the ground . I am sure the RV10 that lost it's oil would agree .

Tom
 
I was flying somewhere with Jay Pratt one time in his RV-7, years ago. We stopped for lunch at a fly-in, and there was a guy in an RV-6 getting fuel at the pumps. This guys prop tips were bent backwards, and I just casually asked him if he'd had a prop strike. He looked at me like I was an alien, and he seemed thoroughly confused by my question.

The tips were jagged and scuffed up, and bent back dramatically- about 2" from each tip. Who knows when it happened, and how the guy didn't know it...but then I just kept on walking. You'd think that prop must have shaken something fierce, being out of balance most likely :confused:
 
You could be diplomatic and say, "I like your look with the rudder further aft than mine, but my rod end threads weren't long enough. Where did you get yours?" That would start the conversation.
 
Forget the tact... I've made lots of folks "mad" when I've pointed out errors on items that need attention or even need to be re-done on their aircraft.

Bottom line, I'm not here to be your friend when I inspect your aircraft. It's my "job" to protect you from yourself regardless of how you feel about it. Most folks end up thanking me in the end :D
 
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...I now only point out things that are really a possible disaster...

Which is why I would point this one out to the builder. Quietly, though, and with tact, as suggested in this thread.

The use of rod ends as elevator and rudder hinges has a long service history in the RV series that demonstrates that it is adequate. However, it is widely recognized in the engineering community that using threaded members such as rod end shanks in bending is a suboptimal practice, that is to be avoided where practical and done carefully where not. To that end, I think that it is very important to keep the rod end extension as close as possible to that specified in the plans.

The more extension there is, the greater the bending moment applied to the rod end shank, and the greater the moment the shank applies to its attachment at the control surface spar. The shank itself will probably be fine, but that extra moment can cause fatigue and also fretting of the aluminum parts that can loosen the joint. And that could precipitate flutter.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
I was flying somewhere with Jay Pratt one time in his RV-7, years ago. We stopped for lunch at a fly-in, and there was a guy in an RV-6 getting fuel at the pumps. This guys prop tips were bent backwards, and I just casually asked him if he'd had a prop strike. He looked at me like I was an alien, and he seemed thoroughly confused by my question.

The tips were jagged and scuffed up, and bent back dramatically- about 2" from each tip. Who knows when it happened, and how the guy didn't know it...but then I just kept on walking. You'd think that prop must have shaken something fierce, being out of balance most likely :confused:

He may have gotten that prop off a "Ram Aircraft" mod, some of them have 'Q' tip props that look like they had a ground strike but are actually designed that way.

pa30-speedspinners3.jpg
 
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He may have gotten that prop off a "Ram Aircraft" mod, some of them have 'Q' tip props that look like they had a ground strike but are actually designed that way.

Years ago there was one at our field. FAA inspector came by and left a tag that said, "Unairworthy, prop strike".
 
He may have gotten that prop off a "Ram Aircraft" mod, some of them have 'Q' tip props that look like they had a ground strike but are actually designed that way.

pa30-speedspinners3.jpg

Yep, I thought of that before I said anything, since I'd seen those Q-tips on some twins at KGKY. But these were pretty beat up on the ends, as in real bad!
 
Give it to me.

I'm knee deep in the fuselage and if someone notices anything incorrect about my build, I would expect someone to bring it to my attention. My skin is pretty thick.

Like Rick said, we all make mistakes. Personally, I would be guilt ridden if I didn't speak up and something happened, but then again, I've got a big mouth so I couldn't see myself not addressing it politely. :D

Cheers,


Don
 
I once saw a plane that was in his phase 1 with the fuel flow meter connected in the middle of a hard aluminum pipe suspended from both end of about a 18? long. I suggested to him that the vibration could cause this line to break considering the weight of the FF meter in between. He did not seem to take the suggestion kindly or at least seriously, shrugged it off and said ?it will be fine?

I have often thought about that day and hope he will never have any problems.
 
As a DAR doing initial airworthiness inspections, I do not like to put someone down but will ask a question to make sure something is done correctly. Only Jam Nuts will I state something like "Looks like this Jam Nut was missed." or "This Jam Nut is loose."

It is difficult to point out possible errors without putting someone down but it can be done.
 
It is difficult to point out possible errors without putting someone down but it can be done.

I agree with Gary - polite and friendly is the way to keep them listening. Blunt and nasty will frequently get them to turn away - then you have lost your opportunity to affect change for the better.

And privately, privately, privately.....
 
I agree with Gary - polite and friendly is the way to keep them listening. Blunt and nasty will frequently get them to turn away - then you have lost your opportunity to affect change for the better.

And privately, privately, privately.....

Very well said.
 
The following line is part of the introduction on my build log on KitLog, and has been since I started my build:

"...if you are an experienced builder, or are otherwise qualified to point out my mistakes or omissions, by all means please do so! "
 
This morning I phoned to the builder ...

... and he understood the problem.

He decided to move the rudder after due to the clearance between the rudder bottom fairing and the tail wheel link (chains).

After my explanation he said that he'll install longer thread bearings.

He sad that the difference (in degrees) between the elevators is not a fact.

;----

Thank you for your suggestions.
 
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Wouldn't longer rod ends and moving the rudder back like this put more stress on the rod ends and perhaps the bulkhead and nutplates?
 
I had a chance to have an IA look over my engine installation. He suggested about a dozen things he would like to see changed. Nothing major....mostly potential chaffing points. It still took 22 hours to correct.:eek: Best $50 I have ever spent. You can't let your ego get in the way of safety or making a buck. That said, it's hard for most people to understand that. We have so much of our time, personality, and emotion put into these projects. Nobody wants to hear that their "children" are a bit ugly.
 
"...if you are an experienced builder, or are otherwise qualified to point out my mistakes or omissions, by all means please do so! "

+1 on what Miles said. I have a partially completed wing just waiting for some constructive criticism. And, you probably can get a free lunch out of it. KHAF (Half Moon Bay, CA) is a nice destination, and is very close by!
 
Here is a cut cross section of the earlier 7 rudder that shows the maximum amount the rod end can be unthreaded. I believe the spar thickness is consistent at all three locations. This is the upper one with the shorter rod end. I'm not sure how many threads the longer rod end has, but one could count the exposed threads to get an idea.
 
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