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Landing an RV...sometimes on purpose

DavidK

I'm New Here
I'm a very low-hours pilot, and now make some novel error each time I fly the DA-20 or 172. I've been thinking about the RV-14, and trying to figure out risks.

The few NTSB reports I read include the expected: fuel starvation, failed mods that should not have been done, improper engine rebuilds...nothing attributed to construction mistakes by a novice like me. But most of the emergency landings included a nose-over.

Then I looked at a compilation of Canadian RVs showing take-offs and landings. It appeared that the take off rolls are a lot shorter than my 172 take offs (probably a good thing). But on landing, these experienced pilots all bounced more than my instructor let me get away with.

Taken together, it makes a new guy like me wonder whether the plane's weight and 'urge to be airborne' changes the way I should think about a 'good' landing. More importantly, it makes we wonder whether it's a plane I can handle. (Or will be able to handle after years of building, while practicing in rentals).

Thoughts?
 
If you decel good basic flying skills and then get good transition training, you shoudl have no more problem with an RV than any other plane. The RV-14 (either nose or taildragger) is a wonderful and forgiving airplane to fly.

Good fundamentals, good transition trianing - good flying.
 
Landing gear

Hi

The landing gear is basically undamped Spring steel and if you are not accurate with the flare it will bounce you back up. Having said that transitioning should not be a problem
 
landing new types

My technique has evolved over four decades. It has worked for me for transitions quite well. It is simple. Pick a long runway. Pick a time of day when everyone else is too lazy to get up that early. Approach the runway and SLOW down. Get low, with a stable approach and then try your best NOT to let the airplane land. It usually touches down quite softly. I have tried this out with seaplanes, super cubs, all the cessnas, small jets like the L-39, the beaver, and the king air 90. I get lots of compliments on landings. Most pilots I fly with touch down too fast. And BTW, purchase books by Rod Machado. He is one of the best teachers in all of aviation and he is funny. You can't beat that combination. Have fun too !
 
Get low, with a stable approach and then try your best NOT to let the airplane land. It usually touches down quite softly.
Exactly!! I finally figured out the way that works for me is to try NOT to land, and fail gracefully. Power at idle, wheels just off the pavement, and try to keep it off the ground. You can't, but when you fail it looks like a landing. :)

Some days a gusty crosswind means you might be a little less graceful than others. I'm still working on that part.
 
X3. I do the same thing, but have a slightly different mindset: I make the airplane earn the touchdown. Same squeaker outcome (more often than not).

David, the bottom line is that you'll learn to fly, and land, the RV. Learning it is not at all difficult, and every moment of it is pure joy. :cool:
 
My RV is the easiest plane to land I have ever flown .... For sure easier than any of the 172s I flew over the years. The most challenging part is getting slowed down in the pattern to deploy flaps. :)
 
Hi

The landing gear is basically undamped Spring steel and if you are not accurate with the flare it will bounce you back up.

As is the landing gear on a Cessna such as the 172 the OP is flying. Later 172 models have the same rod type Steve Whitman main landing gear as the RV-6,7,9. Early 172 models have the same leaf spring type Steve Whitman main landing gear as the RV-8.
 
As is the landing gear on a Cessna such as the 172 the OP is flying. Later 172 models have the same rod type Steve Whitman main landing gear as the RV-6,7,9. Early 172 models have the same leaf spring type Steve Whitman main landing gear as the RV-8.

The -14A has leaf spring main gear. The -14 has very large diameter tapered rod type main gear.
 
The RV is just a different airplane from your 172, that doesn't mean harder. As Paul said get some good transition training but the message from your instructor will be the same as when you learned to fly the Cessna, CONTROL YOUR SPEED, CONTROL YOUR SPEED, CONTROL YOUR SPEED. If you fly the pattern correctly with the proper speeds these aircraft are simple to land.

I have a good friend who fly's an 8 and has several thousand hours in an RV. I have told him several times that he is the only person I know with 3000 takeoffs and 6000 landings. He likes to land it on the tail wheel and then touch the mains so I call it two landings.
 
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I've got most of my pre-RV hours in a DA-20, and I find the RV-9A at least as easy to land in terms of flare/touchdown...and if I hit my target over-the-fence speed, it's even less likely to bounce. I'd say the RV's elevator sensitivity is a little greater than the Diamond's, but you got used to it almost immediately.

I don't know if it was improperly maintained, but my rental DA-20 could get a SEVERE nose wheel shimmy at times. No such issue with my RV.
 
where's this compilation?????

Then I looked at a compilation of Canadian RVs showing take-offs and landings.

would love to see this video.
I also know of one showing a bunch of RV's operating out of Nelson BC, and there's some good 'rollers' in the runway, so everyone's bouncy whether taking off or landing.

( hopefully nobody ever catches ME on video!) :)
 
Wittman

I normally don't correct spelling errors (God knows I make enough of them), but I hope you'll forgive me here since Steve's contribution to aviation deserves it. The correct spelling is "Wittman".
You beat me to it, thank you.
Steve Wittman patented the flat spring gear in the mid thirty's, the round spring gear and leading edge flap somewhat later. The flat gear was used on both the racers in 1935. Copies of the first patent can be viewed in the Wittman hangar at Pioneer Airport. The rights to the flat gear and the round gear were sold to Cessna. Steve was a Cessna Dealer in the 40's and 50's and was close friends with Duane Wallace, then the President of Cessna.
If you have the opportunity to visit the Wittman hangar, the pictures on the walls include some well known names in aviation: Cessna, Ryan, Laird, Levier, Salmon etc.
 
landings and stories in the cold north

I was told by a Cannuck friend that they only bounce due to being thrifty. For the same money, they log twice as many landings as me.
As a bush pilot in Alaska... I got to look down on the Canadians. And the Tundra tires could bounce at a three to one ratio.... but I was not close enough to a go pro to prove it. Well... they hadn't been invented yet...
In fact a selfie always involved another willing aviator and some Kodachrome.
BUT, have fun learning to fly. You will have many stories to tell your grandkids and they will all be true.
 
Practice air speed

As has been mentioned, the air speed is the key. Most, self included, approach too fast. The landing on a long runway is excellent advice.

I think what happens many time is that we fly around on our planes at 170kts for a while then have to slow down to 65kts for final. It doesn't feel right:D So we keep it a little faster. Becomes even more critical when landing on a short field.

You should have no problem with transition training and practice. The main goal, "Landings equal Take offs."
 
I think what happens many time is that we fly around on our planes at 170kts for a while then have to slow down to 65kts for final. It doesn't feel right:D So we keep it a little faster.
I agree. Some time ago I tried to analyze why I was often a tad faster than the ideal approach speeds. I deduced it was lack of patience, for the just the reason noted. Even holding 70kts on base feels like walking. :)
 
As has been mentioned, the air speed is the key. Most, self included, approach too fast. The landing on a long runway is excellent advice.

I think what happens many time is that we fly around on our planes at 170kts for a while then have to slow down to 65kts for final.


Actually I disagree.

Approach speed being too fast is a big problem regardless of airplane model.....

You can watch this all day at any airport where there is a lot of GA traffic.
My home airport has a 3200' runway. It is rare that anyone lands shorter than using at least 1/2 of it, and a large percentage use 2/3's of it. For most lighter GA airplanes there is totally no reason for that.

A 172 or 182 with only a couple people in it can easily be landed nearly as short as an RV with two people in it, but the common scene is the airplane flying 1/3 the length of the runway in a level pitch attitude about 2' off the runway while the excess speed bleeds off.

BTW, this is the exact scenario that has cause a major majority of the "A" model landing accidents.

Pilot is way too fast... his approach was a little long to start with and then he uses up a lot of the runway waiting for the speed to dissipate.
The end of the runway is coming up fast so he tries to make the airplane land. The final outcome is almost assured.

Lesson for all of us.....
Any time you are tempted to make a trigear airplane land (not entirely applicable to TW doing wheel landings), you should instead be reaching for the throttle to go around. If not, it could be the start of a very bad day.
 
For most lighter GA airplanes there is totally no reason for that.

Other than tearing up your brake pads, you mean?

Other than that, yes you are entirely correct. Fast landings are a near-universal problem, and not just with RV's.
 
Other than tearing up your brake pads, you mean?

Other than that, yes you are entirely correct. Fast landings are a near-universal problem, and not just with RV's.

My example was talking about a typical small GA airport whose runway is usually at least 3000-3500' long. In that case, there is no reason that heavy braking should be required to stop in only half the runway length or less.

If proper technique of correct approach speed, rotate to (or nearly so) full stall AOA prior to touchdown, and then hold the nose off for aero breaking during roll out is used, a landing will still be relatively short (compared to the long landings from fast approaches that we are talking about here) without anything more than light braking (which would probably be less than what is being used to stop after the fast landing that still uses much more runway).
 
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My example was talking about a typical small GA airport whose runway is usually at least 3000-3500' long. In that case, there is no reason that heavy braking should be required to stop in only half the runway length or less.

Absolutely. I rarely touch the brakes until I need to turn off at the end of the rollout. Captain McBrakes might like to do a Valdez STOL-like arrival every time, but approaching at Vref with a near-stall touchdown lets you slow to taxi speed on most runways without needing the brakes.
 
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I think what happens many time is that we fly around on our planes at 170kts for a while then have to slow down to 65kts for final. It doesn't feel right:D So we keep it a little faster. Becomes even more critical when landing on a short field.

I'd argue that 65kts is sometimes too high. Computed Vref for me, bags, and gas in my -6A is 59kts.
 
65 kts?

As has been mentioned, the air speed is the key. Most, self included, approach too fast. The landing on a long runway is excellent advice.

I think what happens many time is that we fly around on our planes at 170kts for a while then have to slow down to 65kts for final. It doesn't feel right:D So we keep it a little faster. Becomes even more critical when landing on a short field.

You should have no problem with transition training and practice. The main goal, "Landings equal Take offs."

If I am on final (RV7A IO360 CS) with power off at 65 kts my sink rate picks up rather fast. I am typically over the numbers when below 65 kts. My touch down speed according to my Dynon data is about 52 kts IAS. Typically I have an 8 kt crosswind when landing and touchdown within 500 ft of the numbers and turn off using about 2K ft of paved runway. My DA is typically 4k+. I want to shorten my landing distance without heavy braking. Each flight I challenge myself to improve my landings even though by most standards they are very safe and smooth. I am not allowed to harm my RV!!
 
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