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You Can't Fix Stupid

The sad thing is this guy took 4 others (that's right 5 fatals in a 4-place airplane) with him. :( This particular accident generated 12 pages of comments over on the Red Board up until the release of this report back in January--wasn't much to say after that.
 
That is one of the worst things I have ever read............

It is hard to believe that people can behave that way. Trouble is that the authorities end up with the "must do something" syndrome and the temptation is to over-regulate.

Just too sad .......
 
:confused:
The real question to me is...
Who would get in an airplane with someone who has been drinking all night, or really, drinking at all??
 
:confused:
The real question to me is...
Who would get in an airplane with someone who has been drinking all night, or really, drinking at all??
Someone else who's been drinking long enough for it to sound like a good idea, most likely.
 
"Protect me and Mine"

For future readers:
If you know someone who is a danger to themselves and others, make them off-limits to those you care about.
This means tough conversations: stand fast for those you love.

I took this route, and my wife is alive; a still-close friend continues to drink, speed, swerve, and clip other cars.
I'll be sad at the funeral, but I'll be standing next to my wife, not looking down at her casket.
 
So we're done with that rule about being respectful in accident investigations and remembering surviving family members?
Not at all, but there does come a time in every such case where the greater good rests in the value to the pilot community in learning from the mistakes of others. In the hours/ days following an accident, it is proper to be deferential to the emotions of the survivors, but that cannot be the overriding factor forever. The release of the final report seems a logical place to make the transition.

While criticism in this case may be especially pointed, it is also well deserved.

All of this is consistent with Doug's posting rules as well:

2. Threads SPECULATING about the causes of a crash/incident before the Probable Cause document is ussued are not allowed here. Offer condolences to the family and friends, of course! Once the governing agency’s PROBABLE CAUSE or FINAL REPORT has been listed online, then by all means we can discuss the mechanics and minutia of the accident until we are blue in the fingers, hopefully learning something that will make flying safer for us. (emphasis mine.)
 
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So we're done with that rule about being respectful in accident investigations and remembering surviving family members?

On other forums I visit regularly there is little restriction on speculation and discussion of accidents when the memory of the accident is "raw". This does have some issues, including the possibility that family members/friends of the victims may be watching. However, the value of these discussions is immense as it raises awareness of potential accident causes: Let's say, for example, that there had been tragic results from the failure in-flight of propeller governors on RVs, before awareness of this issue was raised by a safe power off landing.

When I was in clinical medical practice, I did regular reviews (as a risk manager/consultant/expert) of medical malpractice cases and cases with unexpected or otherwise "bad" outcomes. The knowledge I gained from the deep analysis of these events helped me be a better doctor and avoid many of the pitfalls that I might have been less aware of had I not had this direct exposure.

In addition to Doug's posting of RV accident probable causes, I think there would be value in a safety / accident discussion section that is somehow separated from the general forum - and clearly established as a place where speculation is allowed for the purpose of education and accident prevention.

Food for thought.
 
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I'm just struck by the tone of THIS crash and the condemnation of the pilot vs. the thread here when Dan Lloyd's probable cause was released.

I'm guessing it's because we knew Dan Lloyd.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=44934&highlight=dan+lloyd

Analyze away. But, maybe, be nice.

I completely understand. It's all too easy to go from "learning from others' mistakes" to "I am too good/smart/careful to make that mistake". Humility and aviation are an uneasy mix.
 
No, Bob

There are things that happen in aviation when the truth ought to be addressed with no regard to niceties and feelings. In my opinion, this is the ultimate example.

There is no logical, reasonable path to defend Waylon Boatright's actions. He built the plane, he had to have had enough aviation knowledge to at least be aware of operating limitations, passenger restraint requirements, CG limits, the increased dangers of night flight with no visible horizon, the regs about drinking and flying and other ops/safety subjects. We can't say with certainty the aviation understanding of the four folks he killed. Worst case - they innocently - even in an alcohol-impaired state - went along for the ride with no clue about what they were getting into.

We aren't going to live long enough to have personal experience with all the potential hazards of aviation. We, therefore, must learn from the experiences of others. This is an unbelievable - except that it happened and is believable - example of how stupid a pilot can potentially be - and it deserves all the harsh criticism.
 
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There is no logical, reasonable path to defend Waylon Boatright's actions. He built the plane, he had to have had enough aviation knowledge to at least be aware of operating limitations, passenger restraint requirements, CG limits, the increased dangers of night flight with no visible horizon, the regs about drinking and flying and other ops/safety subjects. We can't say with certainty the aviation understanding of the four folks he killed. Worst case - they innocently - even in an alcohol-impaired state - went along for the ride with no clue about what they were getting into.

It is symptomatic of the times that the standing request on this board to be respectful of the survivors of pilots killed in plane crashes is equated to defending a person's decision to fly drunk.

Pitchforks are the order of the day in 2017 but Doug's admonishment of years past is still an ideal we can and should be embracing.

This original post has a faint whiff of "serves 'em right" to it.

Like I said, there was a good reason why we didn't **** all over Dan Lloyd and his family on VAF after his death.

We didn't do it for our friend, Tony, after he unwisely engaged in aerobatics without proper training, ultimately leading to his death.

In both cases, and far too many more, we're able to hold more respectful analysis of their crashes because we're the ones who lost a friend.

We should have the same standard for this person and his family. It's common decency.
 
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From what I recall, Mr. boatwright wasn't even a certificated pilot. So basically, he committed a heinous crime and unfortunately it was in a conveyance we share an infinity for. He was an adult and his actions were purely his. Facts are facts and it's something the surviving family has to deal with...both good and bad. Imagine what Jeffrie Dahmers parents had to go through. :cool:
 
Reading the NTSB report on Lloyd is unbelievable.

Yeah, I was thinking the same, reading it and just shaking my head. Lloyd's accident might not be on the same "holy cr@p!" level as the Boatright crash, but still... yikes. At least Lloyd didn't take 4(!) victims with him.
 
Yeah, I was thinking the same, reading it and just shaking my head. Lloyd's accident might not be on the same "holy cr@p!" level as the Boatright crash, but still... yikes. At least Lloyd didn't take 4(!) victims with him.

BoatWright crash, not Boatright. ;-)
 
Yeah, I was thinking the same, reading it and just shaking my head. Lloyd's accident might not be on the same "holy cr@p!" level as the Boatright crash, but still... yikes. At least Lloyd didn't take 4(!) victims with him.

He easily could have. He was going to fly his family up to New England THAT AFTERNOON (!), as I recall.
 
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Had he survived, he would facing trial for manslaughter.

That might be true but is an irrelevant point w.r.t. the intent of the guidelines Doug has previous stated with regard to showing respect for survivors and family members.

I mean, it's fine with me if there are no holds barred on these sorts of conversations going forward, but shouldn't someone say that to make it official?

[ed. Please show respect for the survivors and family members. I'd like to keep it that way....and I'll go ahead and lock the thread, as the 'stupid' remark in the title shouldn't have stayed online. I'm sorry I took so long to address it.

A quirk in the software lets me change the title, but the change doesn’t show in the ‘today’s posts’ and ‘new posts’ results…you still see the old title. Anyway, it’s my wish that people do not call each other, or the pilots of crashes ‘stupid’ in posts. I want VAF to be a little less angry than the rest of the world seems to be these days.

Thanks and best,
dr

PS: Bob, I wasn't picking on your reply! I just chose this spot (and used your wise words as a nudge) to remind folks my wishes.]
 
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