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  #21  
Old 01-23-2022, 05:30 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Even though I am an A&P, and have been for almost 50 years, I still have a different mechanic do my inspection every few years. Different eyes see different things.

I've been proposing to the FAA for several years that a "Repairman" for an amateur-built aircraft should be required to have an experienced mechanic walk him through his first Condition Inspection. Knowing how to build an airplane does not mean that you know how to inspect one.

Just my opinion! Obviously not a real popular one.
I agree with you Mel. But rather than the FAA getting involved and making a rule I would prefer that people just did that on their own. I promote it to any builder with a newly completed airplane.
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2022, 06:51 PM
RVDan RVDan is offline
 
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Location: Frederick, MD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtens View Post
Yep - got that - see post #6

Not talking about who can do the maintenance anymore - talking about the requirement for maintenance records.

A statement was made that "no logbook or records are required to be kept at all for EAB except for the annual condition

inspection." My question was where does it say that FAR 91.417 doesn't apply to experimental aircraft?

Inquiring minds want to know.
It is important to note that this is a part 91 requirement not part 43 and therefore 43.1 does not relieve one from the 91.417 requirements. Unless there is something else exempting EAB from record keeping, I would agree that the owner/ operator has to keep these records.
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  #23  
Old 01-24-2022, 06:01 AM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Even though I am an A&P, and have been for almost 50 years, I still have a different mechanic do my inspection every few years. Different eyes see different things.

Just my opinion! Obviously not a real popular one.
I'll go one step further and say that the builder is actually the worst person to do the first condition inspection, they will assume things are good because that's the way they built it. Can't even remember how many sump screens I've pulled that still had the original Lyc safety wire installed after years of inspections.
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Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
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Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154

Last edited by Walt : 01-24-2022 at 07:15 AM.
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2022, 06:34 AM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
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I always have my A&P review any significant work that I do on my airplane, but I donít ask him to sign off the logbookÖhe signs only if he actually does the work. I donít do any work forward of the firewall. I even have him do the oil changes because itís worth it to me. As to the annual inspectionÖI pull the interior and the flooring, luggage bulkhead, and inspection panels as a means of saving some money and learning about the airplane, although the time spent doing that is such that Iím on the fence as to whether or not itís worth it any more.
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  #25  
Old 01-24-2022, 06:53 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Put me in the bin with Scott. I absolutely agree that quite a few builders do a poor first condition inspection...but no, we don't need a new rule mandating A&P involvement.

Let's not kid ourselves. I have seen some really dumb stuff in one year old airframes from very experienced builders. I had a lot of personal experience correcting outright dangerous things in an airframe signed off by a highly qualified DAR, and I'm pretty sure that DAR signed off the entire production series. And I once found a torque tube/aileron pushrod bolt with no nut, no indication it had ever had one...and I was the builder.

Point is, mandating some particular class of mechanic is no solution. Inspection isn't about qualifications. It's about actually looking closely, and almost anyone can fill that role.
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  #26  
Old 01-24-2022, 07:04 AM
mdevans9 mdevans9 is offline
 
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Default RE: CFR 91.417 Records

There are definitely two camps regarding the applicability or not of CFR 91.417.

Likely will not change any minds, but here is an article that tries to sort through the inconsistencies.

https://www.kitplanes.com/aircraft-r...-and-logbooks/

Merrill
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  #27  
Old 01-24-2022, 08:09 AM
Ventus Ventus is offline
 
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Default What Can I Do?

As a current & previous owner of several experimental aircraft, and a buyer looking for an RV-8, I like to see clear documentation of all maintenance and repairs performed. I prefer to see occasional IA or A&P entries in the logbooks showing that multiple sets of capable eyes have looked at the plane and found it airworthy and contributed to itís maintenance.
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  #28  
Old 01-24-2022, 08:43 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtens View Post
Yep - got that - see post #6

Not talking about who can do the maintenance anymore - talking about the requirement for maintenance records.

A statement was made that "no logbook or records are required to be kept at all for EAB except for the annual condition

inspection." My question was where does it say that FAR 91.417 doesn't apply to experimental aircraft?

Inquiring minds want to know.
My mistake.

I thought I clicked quote on a different persons post on page 1.

I agree that anything written in Part 91 applies to Experimental Amateur Built aircraft.

Including a lot of others that owner inspectors often miss. One of those that is often overlooked is FAR 91.207 (which within the part specifically mentions an entry in the aircraft maint. records is required.
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #29  
Old 01-24-2022, 03:49 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
I agree that anything written in Part 91 applies to Experimental Amateur Built aircraft.
.
Just to be a contrarian, I note that 91.409 (c)(1) specifically excludes EAB aircraft from a small subset of the rules. More generally, a lot of the 91.4xx rules reference Part 43 - which specifically excludes EAB. How are we to interpret these?
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  #30  
Old 01-24-2022, 10:00 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Just to be a contrarian, I note that 91.409 (c)(1) specifically excludes EAB aircraft from a small subset of the rules. More generally, a lot of the 91.4xx rules reference Part 43 - which specifically excludes EAB. How are we to interpret these?
Even though I interface with the FAA on a pretty regular basis, I am still far from having any expertise at interpreting the FAR's, but I think this one is pretty self explanatory.

91.409(C) says "Paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section do not apply to..."

So it is saying that only 91.409 doesn't apply to an experimental. Just because one Section (section is the portion of the "Part" being identified with the numerals after the period) doesn't apply, doesn't mean that all of Part 91 doesn't apply, or that any Section in Part 91 related to inspections don't apply. Only that Section 409 doesn't apply. I believe this would be the case for any other section in Part 91 as well.

91 is the Part, 409 is the Section, A & B are the paragraphs within that Section.

Part 43 is different. Its exclusion statement says " This Part does not apply to -". That means Part 43, in its entirety, does not apply to an experimental.
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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