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New guy looking for suggestions

R

RVGator

Member
I am in the planning/prep stages for an RV-7 build. I'm looking for advice on getting started. Forgive me if all my questions have been addressed in previous threads. I got many answers, these are the ones I missed.

Specifically I need a little advice on tools and workshop layout. A floor plan would be great. How much and what kind of shelf-space should I have? Does anyone have a cool solution for sharing a two car garage workshop with bikes and toys? How much empty wall space should I have for hanging wings, tools, and motivational posters of the finished product?

As for tools, are those RV tool kits from Avery or Cleveland a good way to go? I found a Rivet Gun Kit that looked like a good deal (AT590RGK 3X RIVET GUN KIT) from Aircraft Spruce. Do you suggest I piece together a set of tools?

Does anyone have a good plan for a web based builders log?

That should do it for now. Thanks for the advice.

Dave
 
Welcome Dave

Welcome to the world of RV's!

For the Empennage, a nice work shelf and rolling toolbox is all you really need. I just use a simple inexpensive craftsman one and keep all my Aircraft tools in it. That way I can roll it to wherever I need it. Check into building the EAA work shelf. I would also hang your bikes (i assume bicycles) and other toys from the ceiling or walls, that will give you the most floor space.

Try not to overbuild your workshop right away. I think sometimes we use the "preparation" excuse to procrastinate ordering the first part of the kit.

Since the Empennage does not take all that much room to build, you can use that as a measure for the space you need for the next portion of the kits. And what works best for you.

Even in regards to an air compressor, unless you run an air drill you can get by with a very small unit. I built my entire empennage kit with a Dewalt electric drill, a 1 gallon 1 hp compressor, and the Cleveland tool kit.

The one thing you will hear most often is, just get started.
 
Ahh, fresh meat! Welcome, Dave.

To answer your questions:

The tool sets from Avery or Cleveland are a very good starting point. They're good quality, a good value, and will save you a lot of time versus piecing together your own. I'm sure that Avery and Cleveland will happily let you make changes to their standard tool sets, like say if you want to omit the rivet gun because you already have on.

Your floor plan needs will change throughout the different stages of the project, so don't try to come up with a single arrangement right now that will last the duration of the project. Initially (empennage) you will actually need very little space. Later, you'll likely end up consuming most of the garage.

A good large flat/level workbench is essential (mine is 8 ft x 3 ft). It can go against a wall, although for certain tasks having access from both sides is a nice-to-have. Again, don't shy away from re-arranging the furniture occasionally to suit the changing needs of the project.

Your shelf space needs will also vary throughout the project. I use a couple of modular free-standing shelving units in addition to some stationary shelving in the garage... and one bedroom... Again, no need to plan ahead too far on this. Stay flexible, and get more shelving as you need it.

Most important advice for getting started: Order the kit and get started!
 
Get Started

I agree with all of the above. And don't try to anticipate ALL your space/layout needs in advance, this will change during your project.

You can anticipate a good FLAT workbench, however. Read ahead in the preview plans, especially for the elevators, rudder, flaps and ailerons. They stress a FLAT, LEVEL workbench with an MDF top that you can drill into for clecos. I originally built a very nice workbench with steel legs and a plywood top. When I got to the elevators and checked the workbench for flatness, well, it wasn't. Van's says to build a frame of 2x4s and make a MDF top and bottom. Well all of the 2x4s in my local builders supply were bent and getting worse as I looked at them.

I ended up building a frame of 2"x4" aluminum channels bolted together with MDF bolted to the top. Worked excellent, although a bit expensive. Still, it was FLAT when I built it and it is still FLAT. The only trouble is it is clamped to the workbench that I built and so ended up a bit higher than I would have liked. I guess that's what stools are for. If I had planned ahead on my workbench, I would have bolted the aluminum 2"x4" channels directly to the steel legs.
 
Wow. Thanks for the great welcome.

This is great info. Terrye, would you be able to post a picture of your bench? I have two nice benches in the corner but it sounds like I need one in the middle of the workspace. Hey, it will limit where the kids lay down their bikes!

I like the advice to just get started - though I'm still working on how to break it to the wife. I was planning to start with the practice projects (tool box and air foil) since I know nothing about riveting. I also plan to take an EAA class in Nov. I'm concerned about scratching skins with poor rivet gun technique.

The tool advice makes things a lot simpler for sure!
 
A workbench mistake I made, well, two of them, might be worth mentioning.

The first one was that it was four feet by eight feet, and four feet is too wide to reach across.

The second and more serious mistake was that I made it too heavy for me to move around by myself.
 
yachabach said:
Terrye, would you be able to post a picture of your bench?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures and only have a film camera so it would take quite a while to get the pix developed and posted. But here is a bit more of a description. Legs were preformed steel purchased from a metal warehouse shelf distributor. Each leg assembly has two vertical legs, a top crossmember for the top and an intermediate crossmember for a shelf. The handy thing about these leg assemblies is that they were prepunched with a knockout electrical receptacle on each of the legs, so I wired it up with four 110V outlets. The aluminum framed top is 2' wide x 8' long. Perimeter members and 4 crossmembers are 2"x4" aluminum channel (1/4" flanges and 3/16" webs) joined at the corners with a piece of 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 3/16" angles and 5/16" bolts. Two sheets of 3/4" MDF are bolted to the top. Originally I had 2 x 3/4" thick plywood for a bench top. Now I have the aluminum frame clamped to the bench top. If I were to build it again, I would eliminate the plywood bench top and just bolt the aluminum frame to the leg assemblies.
 
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Dave,

Welcome to the VAF world!

Have you joined your local EAA chapter yet? I'm sure someone there is building an RV. Hook up with them, bring some beer and scrap aluminum from the hardware store. They can give you a riveting lesson and go through their tool collection.

I've done that a number of times and have had positive feedback from the builders.
 
Yes I have joined. I met a guy building a -9A just down the street! He gave a great tour and offered up some tools he's not using any more. I guess what I need to do is put together is a good list of tools, mark off what I can get/borrow, then see what Avery or Cleveland will do with a kit.
 
FresnoR said:
Welcome to the world of RV's!

The one thing you will hear most often is, just get started.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Just get started. You don't need a lot of space, you don't need a fancy shop or fancy tools. One thing you will find out for sure is that if you don't have something you need you will know as soon as you get to that point. Check out this regarding tools:Tools from Cleaveland

Brass air tool regulator. AFR-1
Footed bucking bar. BB-30
Flush swivel set. RSMS-75
1" Mushroom set. RSM-10
Back Rivet Plate. BBRP-416
Back Rivet Set. RSB-35
Offset Hand Seamer. HS-30
Fluting Pliers. FP-200
C-Frame (C-Frames make much more crisp dimples without the metal "stretch" that the DRDT-2 does). DF-80
Needle File Set. FN-10
1/4 X3/4 in 1/16ths Unibit. DBU-3
3/32 Rivet Springback Dimple Die. DIE-426-3
1/8 Rivet Springback DImple Die. DIE-426-4
#6 Screw Springback Dimple Die. DIE-509-6
#8 Screw Springback DImple Die. DIE-509-8
3/32 Small Diameter Female Die. DIE-426-3S
1/8 Small Diameter Female Die. DIE-426-4S
Single Flute Cutter 40. CCSF-40 I actually recommend the triple flute cutters over the single flutes. Singles cut nice but leave a burr that damages the surrounding metal. Order the triple flutes.
SIngle Flute Cutter 30. CCSF-30
SIngle Flute Cutter #8. CCSF-19
SIngle FLute Cutter #6. CCSF-28

Tools from US Industrial Tool

3X Rivet Gun. TP-83 (Incl Beehive spring)
Quickchange Spring. A1006-234x
Bucking Bar. TP638
Hand Squeezer. TP116
1/8 Cup Double Offset Set. SM130-4704
1/8 Cup Set Straight. SM10-4704
Left Aviation Snip. TP133 (Also makes straight cuts)
Right Aviation Snip. TP134 (Also makes straight cuts)
Snake Drill. TP47K
Auto Center Punch. TP294HD
3 High Speed Steel (HSS) Threaded Drill Bits #40. TP54A-40
2 HSS Threaded Drill Bits #40. TP54-40
2 HSS Threaded Drill Bits #30. TP54A-30
1 HSS Threaded Drill Bit #30. TP54-30
1 HSS Threaded Drill Bit #19. TP54A-19
1 HSS Threaded Drill Bit#19. TP54-19
1 HSS Threaded Drill Bit #12. TP54A-12
1 HSS Threaded Drill Bit #12. TP54-12.
6 HSS Jobber Drill Bit #40. TP49-40
6 HSS Jobber Drill Bit #30. TP49-30
2 HSS Jobber Drill Bit #19. TP49-19
2 HSS Jobber Drill Bit #12. TP49-12
3 HSS Extension Drill Bit #40. TP55-40
2 HSS Extension Drill Bit #30. TP55-30
1 HSS Extension Drill Bit #40. TP55A-40
1 HSS Extension Drill Bit #30. TP55A-30
Cleco Pliers TP-74
300 Clecos #40 (3/32) TP75-3-32
150 Clecos #30 (1/8) TP-75-1-8
25 Clecos #21 (5/32) TP-75-5-32
25 Clecos #10 (3/16) TP75-3-16

Tools From Avery

Microstop Countersink 19365 (with needle bearings)

Other Tools

Drill Press (Craftsman)
Band Saw (Craftsman)
Benchtop belt sander
Vixen File with single cuts ONLY
Air Compressor (20 Gal minimum-oiled are quieter)
DeWalt Electric Drill and/or air drill (uses air, runs compressor and is loud)
Aircraft grade ruler to measure custom cuts (Cleaveland has a nice one)
Pop Rivet Puller (Stanley-Home Depot)
Dremel Tool with sanding drums
Bench Top grinding wheel not necessary as much of the work can be done with files, scotchbrite and sandpaper.

If anyone feels like adding anything else...just go right on ahead. But this is really all you need to get started. You may add a few more things later. I highly recommend Cleaveland, Avery and US Tool. They have all been very good to deal with.
Google EAA 1000 Workbench, build one to spec or modify your own specs (which is what I did).
Hook up your air compressor and go to work. Have fun!! PM me with questions.
 
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easy table

For my primary workstation, I bought a new, unpainted hollow-core door from home depot and slapped it on two saw horses. Done. I used this for the entire build. And it takes 2 seconds to assemble or put out of the way. If you feel the need to do something more elaborate, there are nice plans for the quasi-official EAA workbench.

You need shelves to put parts on. I used 2 sets of metal/wood shelf kits.
You need storage bins for all sorts of rivets and fasteners.
If you buy an oiled (not oil-less) air compressor, it's not as noisy. You don't have to go nuts on plumbing lines, just start off with a hose reel.

I agree with prior comment that you'll adjust space usage as you go. You don't need much space to do the empennage. You'll have to build wing stands eventually, but don't sweat it until you've ordered it. If you're doing quick build, you obviously need to take over the whole garage right away.


Good luck
 
I just finished my EAA workbenches too, of which they recommend two. They are coming in handy.

Among list of other tools, another mentions the Craftsman band saw. I went to look at them from Sears and Harbor Freight the other day. I concentrated on the 9? model. They obviously are from the same manufacturer, probably China; there were too many parts identical. Sears just puts their Craftsman brand on them. Right now, they are $10.00 cheaper than Harbor Freight. I?m curious to see what price HF will have on theirs when they go on sale which is quite often.

It wouldn't suprise me if Sears also uses the same Chinese manufacturer with their drill presses either. Both Sears and Harbor Freight run sales so often, you can save quite a bit by just waiting for these.

For most of your tools though, you'll have to go to aircraft specialty shops like Avery, Cleveland, Brown, or Aircraft Spruce. I went with Avery on most of my stuff, and like dealing with them, they are also closer than the other places, so sometimes I drive. But I hear good things from all of those companies.

Spend most of your time post-dating, and reading everything you can on VAF. Time well spent.
 
I spoke to one respected VAF member who did his entire RV-12 using two of those white folding tables like they sell at Sam's Club. I think he said he did most of his work sitting down, which gave him the right height. Just fold them up when not using them and store them out of the way. I'm sure there is a downside to this, but I saw and rode in his plane and his workmanship was muey excellante.
 
1st things 1st!

yachabach said:
I like the advice to just get started - though I'm still working on how to break it to the wife.
Click to expand...
Everyone is already giving you great advice concerning your question about tools/workspace/work benches and the like. However, I think it of much more importance that you don't get your planning and organizing out of order.

If you have not already discussed this with your wife I think you are making a very large mistake if you go ahead with your building plans without getting her involved.

DO NOT GO DOWN THAT ROAD!!!

If you do not have the complete support of your wife you run a very high risk of AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome)!

As hard as it may be to broach this subject to someone that may not quite be able to grasp the concept that you could actually build your own airplane in your garage, you really need to get her involved from the get go. If you are committed to this new adventure you are going to need all of her support throughout the complete process.

So, my advice is that before you begin building your work bench or buying those useful tools or even before you start cleaning out the garage to make way for some aluminum, sit down with your wife and introduce her to the joy your entire family will have from here on out in this new adventure.

If she accepts the idea as a great new adventure, well, then you have a great partner to rely on. If she balks at the notion, well, you will have to work on getting that partner on board with you. Regardless of how she reacts you are going to have to realize she will be your partner in this. The only question is going to be whether she is to be a willing partner or an unwilling partner!

Good luck and enjoy the ride.
 
You might want to look on craigslist for compressors, band saws, and bench grinders, youll save a lot of money and probably end up with stuff much better quality than that Junk they sell nowadays
 
FresnoR said:
...bench grinders...
Click to expand...

Do a search on "bench grinders" here on the forum. There is some very good and important info on that topic.

I would buy a drill press long before I bought a bench grinder as it can be used for multiple things.
 
1st things 1st

Fortunately, my wife is very excited...for the kids and I. She doesn't share our passion for aviation. But she's quite enthused about anything that excites the kids and me. (Yes...I married up!) So she's ok with the airplane...as long as we finish the summer kitchen first (long story). As far as building...she's only promised to keep me company. And that's all I ask.

Thank you for addressing the family aspect. I missed the EAA class on this subject at OSH. Has anyone some good ideas about how to involve a 9/11/12 year old? I'm sure it's not an easy thing to make "bucking rivets" fun for a kid. They're excited now...but a few hours into it might be a different story. Any tips on keeping the project fresh?

I expect this will be a long build as we are a very active family.

Thanks for the tool list! That's exactly what I need!
 
I think to finish that kitchen youll need a 50 gallon air compressor, band saw, and drill press, i mean, if you wanna do it right ;-)
 
Dave, kids that small are a big asset..

...because they can easily lie down in the narrow confines of the fuselage and buck rivets from inside. Just fit them with hearing protection. Mine really enjoyed "building an airplane" and bragged to their buddies at school...."I'm helping my Dad build an airplane":)

You'll be pleasantly surprised at their enthusiasm and willingness to 'get involved'....great bonding times!

Best, and welcome to VAF,
 
True, but..

David Paule said:
A workbench mistake I made, well, two of them, might be worth mentioning.

The first one was that it was four feet by eight feet, and four feet is too wide to reach across.

The second and more serious mistake was that I made it too heavy for me to move around by myself.
Click to expand...

My work bench is 4 x 8 and is a brute for structure. It was obtained many years before the RV project. While I would not recommend one this big for everyone, if you have the room, they are great. You wind up with 3 work "zones" on a table like this. Mount a BMF vise on one corner.

It was great during avionics wiring.
http://websites.expercraft.com/rzbill/images/7195204624b53d55a15b8a.jpg

or canopy cutting
http://websites.expercraft.com/rzbill/images/1107991274c3a67624cb00.jpg
 
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