Sun-n-Fun - Where did all the homebuilts go?

Just got back from SNF and was shocked to see how few homebuilts were there. Haven't been in a number of years but back in the 90s the whole EAB tie down area was always full. Row after row of RVs, Glassairs, EZs and everything else.

Anyone have an idea why attendance has dropped off so visibly? I know there was a tornado in 2011, the economy isn't good, and general aviation overall is on a down slope, but SNF overall was crowded. Jut not that many homebuilts on the line.

I also noted that the overall event vibe seems to have changed. It used to be more homebuilder focused. Now it seems to be catering to high end corporate turbuine aircraft customers. Lots of multi-million dollar aircraft on display along the main drag but no sign of Cleveland, Avery or Brown in any of the booths.

I'd be interested in any insights from those of you who have been attending more regularly. Also, has Oskosh gone the same way? Hope not.

May be

May be Osh the same way. These year EAA prefers another displays versus Aerodynamic Team

i believe you have answered your own question

"...there was a tornado in 2011, the economy isn't good, and general aviation overall is on a down slope,..."1

which leads to the need to allow more 'large' vendor/sponsor to keep the thing going

We flew in for the day on Thursday morning and back again on Saturday morning, each time parking in the HB area. The drive in crowd was much bigger on Saturday but the HB parking was almost empty compared to years past. I think part of the fall off on Saturday was due to the low ceilings in Central Florida that lasted until 10 am leaving only an hour and a half window for arrivals before the airspace was shut down for air shows. I think the bigger reason for the low attendance of homebuilt airplanes besides the points Ivan made is due to the location of the HB parking and 100% restricted access from noon to 6 pm or later each day. In other fly-ins and air shows including all other areas of SNF, people are allowed to walk around the airplanes and in most cases talk to the pilot / builder / owner. The current configuration of SNF does not allow for that due the proximity to the air show box. Either the box needs to be moved or HB parking needs to be moved so builders can show off their airplanes and others can view them throughout the day like the static displays the corporations bring in. The current showcase is the large certified corporations that spend the big dollars to have a central presence but probably have very few sales or impact to those in attendance. If the focus was shifted back to the Homebuilt airplanes the excitement to build and fly one of these airplanes would be spread by the other builders and pilots as in years past. That said, we had a great time and will be back next year but I know it could be better.

Weather to the north blocked traffic. SnF can be a challenge to get in and out of this time of year, west of Mississippi.

The drive in crowds Sat were larger that usual IMHO. F-22 and Blue Angles draws them in.

East and Early

Iluke said:

Just got back from SNF and was shocked to see how few homebuilts were there. Haven't been in a number of years but back in the 90s the whole EAB tie down area was always full. Row after row of RVs, Glassairs, EZs and everything else.

Anyone have an idea why attendance has dropped off so visibly? I know there was a tornado in 2011, the economy isn't good, and general aviation overall is on a down slope, but SNF overall was crowded. Jut not that many homebuilts on the line.

I also noted that the overall event vibe seems to have changed. It used to be more homebuilder focused. Now it seems to be catering to high end corporate turbuine aircraft customers. Lots of multi-million dollar aircraft on display along the main drag but no sign of Cleveland, Avery or Brown in any of the booths.

I'd be interested in any insights from those of you who have been attending more regularly. Also, has Oskosh gone the same way? Hope not.

Click to expand...

Yes, there are changes to SnF and AirVenture. BUT ....

If you arrive early, you will find that a lot of homebuilders come early in the week for just a couple of days.

If you were to go to homebuilt camping, you would have found that one a couple of days, there were probably MORE RV's in HBC than in HB(P).

If you remember the weather conditions to the north (always an issue for SnF), starting around Friday, it was very clear that for some they HAD to get going of they wanted to make it home. I know that Paul Dye got out early to not get caught by the weather. I am STILL in Florida (some by choice, some by weather).

According to "Lites" this year was a very good year for attendance as compared to some in the past.

The number of corporate planes actually seemed LOWER to me. It is just that a number of the smaller companies are not doing as well. Just as a reference point, take a look at the size of the booth for the most popular aircraft out there (three guesses and the first two don't count ) and then ask what can you expect the from companies that have at best 1/100th the revenue.

It is a tough business and every vendor needs to make up for their expenses with sales at the show and/or sales down the road, from attendees who come to spend.

I agree with your sentiment though regarding the need/desire to have more home builders being present.

To do so, I believe that SnF and AirVenture both must continue to strive to make the event a "destination event" for "community engagement". The feel of a local fly in at a major event where like minded can share as well as experience other options.

I feel some of this over at HBC where I spent several nights.

James

The Purpose of the Events

The posts above on weather, and Jame's insights are right on. The bottom line is that the events are what we make them. The purpose of the events is not to provide a homebuilders (or antiquers, or racers.....) Nirvana - it is to raise enough funds to cover the costs and provide annual funding for the organization's goals. In the case of Sun 'n Fun, they need to fund a year's worth of educational outreach. Homebuilders generally, as a group, don't have a lot of money - but the general public sure likes to buy tickets to see the Blue Angels! (Take a look at the photo gallery thread - many pictures that homebuilders took of the Blues as well...).

I have only been doing SnF for a few years, but my observations are that HBC is where the life is - it is just too bad it is so far from the rest of the show. HBP is extremely problematic. it is right in front of the main show, where the public can see it - but the downside of being cordoned off from your plane for six hours is a killer. I planned to have dinner with friends who were staying in HBC and said I'd pick them up at 1800 - but then got busy and didn't get out to close up and cover Mikey before they closed the field at 1300. Had to wait at the gate until the show finished (late) and was almost an hour late for dinner.

No - the show isn't really friendly for homebuilders - but it is not a homebuilt fly-in, it is an Air Show and GA fly-in. Many of the small venders who used to go have decided that it no longer supports their bottom line - but many others (thsoe REALLY tired of winter?) still come.

If only HBC wasn't so dang far away!

The sad thing about the HB camping area is that it wasn't always that way. Back in the '90s when I began going, homebuilts & classics camped together, so you could be a lot closer to the action. Perhaps they wanted to keep the HB campers grouped together, but that could have been achieved by drawing an east-west line through the HB/Classic camping area & making the divide north/south instead of east/west.

I heard from one vendor several years ago that the booth fees had gotten so high that he just couldn't afford to pay them any more. So he & his partner wore their logos on their hats/shirts, pinned on their name tags, and made more sales than they had made in prior years with a centrally located outdoor booth.

FWIW, SNF is just catching up with what OSH did many years ago. They couldn't care less if not a single homebuilt showed up; their revenue is from drive-ins coming to see the jet truck & military teams (your tax dollars at play).

Charlie

I've been to the past five Sun and Funs. The previous 4 years, I lived in florida and it was a day visit or a single overnight (usually in a local motel). I often found the whole production rather tedious and wondered why I was even coming.

This year, the situation was different. I moved to Murphy, NC last year so needed to spend more than one day to justify the trip. I called Mary at HBC and made arrangements to stay there even though I am between planes.

What a wonderful experience. Warm, friendly people. Lots of camaraderie. Coffee, food and drink available in the morning and at night. It couldn't have been a nicer experience.

I'll give you an example that sticks out in my mind. Having coffee and cereal Thursday morning at the HBC tent. Chatting with a fellow from England. He mentions that his plane was now over in England but he was working in the States. Light goes off in my head? Are you the guy that Kitplanes had an article about flying an RV from US to Europe? Yep. Modest guy, lovely chat.

Mary and Robert at HBC were absolutely wonderful hosts. I can't wait to be back there next year and, based on this years experience, my wife is looking forward to coming.

Tom H.

It cost a family of four $1500+ for a short trip to Osh to camp beside their plane. Where you can get ran over by gators, four wheelers and delivery trucks. Where you can visit vendors that pay $15,000 for a small booth. Where most people are too busy trying to get their monies worth to make new friends. Where you can use the worst shower facility in HB camping. Where you get to see very few experimentals flying in the show. There were a lot of nice things to do for us crazy pilot types and not so much for the family. Our plane rarely takes off under 2650 lbs and there are just too many family friendly places to see in the U.S.

A lot of those "missing" homebuilts were probably in HBC or General Air raft Camping. It is much more convenient to camp with your plane than to have to schlep your gear to a campground from HBP. Also, GAC and HBC don't get as much foot traffic from the general public, which minimizes some risk of damage from careless airshow attendees.

Remember that the EAA officially separated itself from the regional events (including Sun n Fun) in 1989, and the Sun n Fun organization is now courting and working with a broad collection of many different aspects of flying and aviation as it caters to homebuilts, antique/classics, light sports, certified manufacturers, hot-air balloons, business aviation, avionics companies, all the other aviation-related gadgetry, and.....also wants to get the non-aviation public out there to see the stuff, pay admission fees to see the air shows, etc. ....and all while trying to accomplish their goals of inspiring and educating people of all ages.

It's very broad, and, while experimentals were its roots, they are just one part of the very big picture now.

.

HBC is a big reason I keep coming to back to SNF. Maryjane and crew are careful to make sure everyone there fills out a registration card. That way she can show accurate attendance and hopefully get appropriate resources from year to year. I don't have the numbers but it seems to me that year after year HBC is increasing in attendance as HBP has been decreasing.

I will get in touch with her and see if she can lobby for a closer location. First thing that comes to mind would be swapping sites with the seaplanes. That would get us a little closer. Plus there are a lot more of US than THEM.

Using Paul's message as comment to many

Ironflight said:

The posts above on weather, and Jame's insights are right on. The bottom line is that the events are what we make them. The purpose of the events is not to provide a homebuilders (or antiquers, or racers.....) Nirvana - it is to raise enough funds to cover the costs and provide annual funding for the organization's goals. In the case of Sun 'n Fun, they need to fund a year's worth of educational outreach. Homebuilders generally, as a group, don't have a lot of money - but the general public sure likes to buy tickets to see the Blue Angels! (Take a look at the photo gallery thread - many pictures that homebuilders took of the Blues as well...).

Click to expand...

Paul is so correct. Remember, any of these events is a BUSINESS. (Unless there is some large benefactor piking up the tab.) The "gate" is up significantly when the Blues are there and thus the organizers "have to do what they have to do" for the existence of the show. Some of it you may not like but, it's not personal it is business. I did a lot of the interfacing with SnF regarding Team AeroDynamix. I know that the head of SnF likes the act. But once they got the Blues and the Raptor, I was told that there would not be the slots available as once discussed for 2014. With those large acts ($$$), they are able to attract a very large gate ($$$$$$$) and thus live to do the next year. I did not like it but I understood it.

I have only been doing SnF for a few years, but my observations are that HBC is where the life is - it is just too bad it is so far from the rest of the show. HBP is extremely problematic. it is right in front of the main show, where the public can see it - but the downside of being cordoned off from your plane for six hours is a killer. I planned to have dinner with friends who were staying in HBC and said I'd pick them up at 1800 - but then got busy and didn't get out to close up and cover Mikey before they closed the field at 1300. Had to wait at the gate until the show finished (late) and was almost an hour late for dinner.

Click to expand...

I have been informed that MaryJane and the head of HB(P), along with "Lites" have discussed and are trying to sort out what is best in this matter. They are aware of the situation and are seeking a better solution. I know of no easy and obvious solution that will make everyone happy. If you have ideas, please let me know.

<Also, there is dialog within EAA to better enhance the sense of "community" at AirVenture as well.>

As Paul mentioned, the beauty of the HBP is that your brand spanking new RV is parked "front and center". But that has issues. If you moved HBP or HBC, where would you make it to?

By the way, this is RV related since MOST of the affected planes are RVs flown in by those of you reading this.

No - the show isn't really friendly for homebuilders - but it is not a homebuilt fly-in, it is an Air Show and GA fly-in. Many of the small venders who used to go have decided that it no longer supports their bottom line - but many others (thsoe REALLY tired of winter?) still come.

If only HBC wasn't so dang far away!

Click to expand...

See above about far away.

The key, in my opinion, is how do you have the large event in such a manner that it feels personal to each and every set of stakeholders. And they RV builder and flyer community (though not exclusively) IS among the key stakeholders. That is what SnF must continually work on and so does EAA. And believe me, that dialog is occurring.

James

Many of you have pointed out that I'd have seen many more RVs if I'd gone to HB camping and not just the HBP area. Thanks. I'm sorry I didn't think of that last week or I would have hiked out there!

rv7charlie said:

. . . .

FWIW, SNF is just catching up with what OSH did many years ago. They couldn't care less if not a single homebuilt showed up; their revenue is from drive-ins coming to see the jet truck & military teams (your tax dollars at play).

Charlie

Click to expand...

This may be the statistics, but I went, drove, (to OSH) many years to absorb the homebuilt "world" and it resulted in the purchase of an RV7 kit in progress, and many $ spent with Vans & Stein and others as a result of being there. Little to none of that money went overseas. As a dreamer, I went for the ideas and to see what other home builders were doing. I took my son to enjoy and share the experience with him. As a builder, I went for bargains, and keeping up with technology and the fascinating kits that were coming out, low and high dollar. This journey covered 10 years at least, so how many others are there for the same reasons. If I get turned off and others like me do, then what is the use of having the show? McDonalds makes a lot more money off drinks than anything else, but only selling the drinks because the profit margin is the highest does not make good sense.

I am looking forward to arrival (by wing) at SnF and OSH as an builder/owner next year and hope the thrill is still alive.

HBC

I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread, but also wanted to add some REAL KUDOS to the HBC volunteers (Mary and gang). They were absolutely wonderful! It was the most fun we have had at any fly in since the early 80's! We hate not being able to spend time with our plane during the show at SNF, too. But it sure was nice to just go hang out in HBC during the show. And those girls on Wednesday night cut up at least 2 dozen chickens and fed all of us. It was like a Thanksgiving dinner. I had to keep pinching myself to remember that I was really still at SNF.

We will be going back!

Vic

FAA mantra

Maybe if the FAA had not started tagging planes for "non" safety related items (wrong color N numbers...) on day one more people would have flown in. In this age of internet and social media this news gets out instantly. I live 30 minutes from S-N-F by RV and might not be back for that hassle. The FAA wants to prove their mantra "Were not happy 'till your not happy".

I was in HBC from Monday to Friday. I did get a blister on my foot from all the walking to and from HBC. The showers are an issue also. However Mary Jane and crew make it all worthwhile . I asked her to contact Charlie Becker at EAA and bring her hospitality to Oshkosh. Maybe James could help make that happen.
I noticed that they moved the LSA mall out to nowhere near HBC and that the previous LSA spot near the show entrance was empty all week prior to a car show they were having that weekend.
Gee and I though this was an air show and not a car show, go figure. It would have been great to stick HBC right there where everyone attending could see all the planes in HBC and we would not feel like we are the poor stepchildren of Sun n Fun.

John Morgan

PS I saw where Smilin 1 made the Sun n Fun Facebook page!!!

HBC is where its at!!!

This year was my first at Sun N Fun. What a great experience. Mary Jane and her group are what made it happen for me. They were in a word AWESOME. I had no knowledge of what to expect or do and they welcomed me as a long lost brother and educated me in the ways of sun n fun. Without their help I would have been lost. I met many new friends and was able to put faces on those I have seen here on VAF. Yep another location closer to the action might have been better but the trams were always there to take me where I wanted to go. Not having a throng of folks traipsing through my campsite might have been a good thing too.

first off let me say I could not attend this year. However, it seems that some of the things that were mentioned in years passed are still the norm.
1. lack of support for the homebuilts in general. they eliminated the 5 dollar fly in discount this year. you want airplanes on the field, give us a break to bring them.
2. all most all day closure of HBP. The airshow is just to long. how many unlimited aerobatic routines do they need. I know that the non-aviation crowd is a big factor and the airshow is the draw, however, I think that by going to the midweek start, they have split the crowd and should have a shorter airshow the first few days and have a longer one on the weekend which is mostly the "lets go to the airshow crowd".
3. reduction in the number of aviation vendors. this applies to both SNF and OSH, get rid of the frying pans, and other non- aviation vendors and bring back airplane parts. last year their were empty spots in the hangers, maybe the prices my need to be looked at.

just a few thoughts from my 20 years or so of going.

bob burns
RV-4
N82RB

Let's forget the rent-a-cops with the million candlepower nightlight and generator right next to HBC. This in a era of long-lasting super bright LED flashlights....

decline

It all started back about ten years ago when the folks who spent weeks there volunteering quit when some some of the attractions for those driving in motor homes were taken away, such as free electric hookups, passes, etc.

I know of at least 10 people plus their families who quit going all together when that happened and have not returned. Most of those volunteers would spend weeks there getting things ready.

Once those people are gone, things snowball.

I'm sure anecdotes can be drawn with the ultralight crowd both at SNF and OSH.

For me personally, how things were handled with my tornado damaged airplane both immediately and months after, determined that I will never park and airplane overnight at KLAL during the show.

Then having vendors say they couldn't afford the booth space, and on top of that spend $3K in diesel to pull an enclosed trailer there doesn't help either.

I have a friend who had HIS stolen avionics appear in the fly mart and they refused to pull them off the table after showing them proof!

Alternate comments and seeking RV creativity for solutions

Ironflight said:

The posts above on weather, and Jame's insights are right on. The bottom line is that the events are what we make them. The purpose of the events is not to provide a homebuilders (or antiquers, or racers.....) Nirvana - it is to raise enough funds to cover the costs and provide annual funding for the organization's goals. In the case of Sun 'n Fun, they need to fund a year's worth of educational outreach. Homebuilders generally, as a group, don't have a lot of money - but the general public sure likes to buy tickets to see the Blue Angels! (Take a look at the photo gallery thread - many pictures that homebuilders took of the Blues as well...).

I have only been doing SnF for a few years, but my observations are that HBC is where the life is - it is just too bad it is so far from the rest of the show. HBP is extremely problematic. it is right in front of the main show, where the public can see it - but the downside of being cordoned off from your plane for six hours is a killer. I planned to have dinner with friends who were staying in HBC and said I'd pick them up at 1800 - but then got busy and didn't get out to close up and cover Mikey before they closed the field at 1300. Had to wait at the gate until the show finished (late) and was almost an hour late for dinner.

No - the show isn't really friendly for homebuilders - but it is not a homebuilt fly-in, it is an Air Show and GA fly-in. Many of the small venders who used to go have decided that it no longer supports their bottom line - but many others (thsoe REALLY tired of winter?) still come.

If only HBC wasn't so dang far away!

Click to expand...

n82rb said:

first off let me say I could not attend this year. However, it seems that some of the things that were mentioned in years passed are still the norm.
1. lack of support for the homebuilts in general. they eliminated the 5 dollar fly in discount this year. you want airplanes on the field, give us a break to bring them.
2. all most all day closure of HBP. The airshow is just to long. how many unlimited aerobatic routines do they need. I know that the non-aviation crowd is a big factor and the airshow is the draw, however, I think that by going to the midweek start, they have split the crowd and should have a shorter airshow the first few days and have a longer one on the weekend which is mostly the "lets go to the airshow crowd".
3. reduction in the number of aviation vendors. this applies to both SNF and OSH, get rid of the frying pans, and other non- aviation vendors and bring back airplane parts. last year their were empty spots in the hangers, maybe the prices my need to be looked at.

just a few thoughts from my 20 years or so of going.

bob burns
RV-4
N82RB

Click to expand...

Bob (and others),

A few "alternate" observations ..

1. There is in fact increasing support for homebuilts. Things are done that maybe not everyone gets to see but the two large venues are making changes to better support homebuilts. May not always work out to everyone's satisfaction but effort is there. Five dollars off is a good gesture but I suspect that that is not what get people there. More of a great experience is probably what it takes. Consistently.

2. The air shows started and ended at different times depending on the day of the week. When the Blue Angels fly at a location, they REQUIRE **much** more than the maybe 15-20 minutes a typical act may take. So if you are going to have the and other military as well as some warbird stuff (all of which the crowds love) then you end up with a long day and/or fewer slots for "other" stuff.

3. Vendors (or sponsors) that are willing to pay to reach out to the flying masses are what make a big show possible. Look at ANY large show and you will find that to be the case. If we limit participation to just builders of or owners of experimental and or other small GA aircraft, then we have a very different event. Now there are such events around. And they are wonderful. But they exist because a LOT of people volunteer to make it all happen and/or someone with VERY DEEP pockets is footing the bill.

I am commenting on this because the issues that are being raised here about SnF have also been raised about AirVenture at one time or another. And we are listening. But I also feel it important to share different perspectives as we try to arrive at a better solution over time. I know that "Lites" at SnF and Jack at EAA are continually open to attainable ideas that will make for a better experience.

I have received lots of comments from RV builders and owners. And I definitely would expect that here at "RV Discussion Headquarters". And while RV's represent a mega portion of the new aircraft being registered each year, I hear similar comments from several other "groups".

The point of all of this dialog is to say let's all seek solutions. And I especially look forward to hearing from THIS community about ways to make it better.

NOW ...

So that this does devolve into a spitting contest not related to RV's, I request that anyone with ideas (or even complaints ) please feel free to email me at :

jclarkmail <<AT>>
gmail.com

James
p.s. Regarding the reference to MaryJane style hospitality at AirVenture, I did in fact mention this to Jack. We were not able to get over there together and I don't know if he made it solo but I do know he is aware as I discussed my belief in the need for more of that style of hospitality.

Enjoyed both this year...

Having attended the first couple SNF's and only having been to one Oshkosh, I was still impressed with the energy and enthusiasm of the many people that make these events happen. I did get a chance to talk to quite a few of the RV pilot/builders there and learned a lot. The time spent with the company folks was invaluable and I thank the Garmin and Vertical Power reps for their time (and drawings). You're right, they have to bring in the crowds to raise the money, but the exposure general aviation gets is profound.

My heart is in Oshkosh now, but SNF is quite marvelous as well.

I attended my first SnF on Thursday of last week. My primary goal was to look at as many RVs and talk to as many builders as possible. After dropping my family off at Busch Gardens for the day, I arrived at SnF around 11 am. After about 30 minutes, the guys in the golf carts chased me off the field. They said it would re-open at 5. So I went to the Vans booth only to find one RV on display. Gus kindly suggested I go look in the homebuilt camping area. So I trucked over there and walked forever without finding more than a smattering of RVs. When I couldn't take another step, I jumped on the trolley to see if I could find more. All in all, I found very few RVs out there, so either the numbers weren't there, or I just missed them somehow. In contrast, I've been to Osh twice now and have found more RVs than I had time to look at and no restrictions on when I could look.

Oh and by the way, I did have a blast looking at all the other stuff at SnF, just didn't accomplish my primary goal. In the future I will stick with Osh and leave SnF for the rest of the folks.

MJ and her family is what makes SnF for me. Last year I brought my son with me and she treated the little guy like he was a king. (He was four last year.) In fact last week he asked when we were going to go visit MaryJane, not go to the air show. (I couldn't make it this year due to work.) For me, these shows are more about catching up with friends and making new ones.

As for the location of HBC, yes it is out in the middle of nowhere but that is by design. I don't think the organizers want a tent city at the entrance.

HBC at OSH isn't much different and the accommodations are probably the worst on the airport! That said, if you want real showers and toilets, take up a collection and build them. Just don't go look at the bathrooms for certified camping, it will really upset you!

Even if the military flight teams are a big draw, last year was great because they weren't there. This forced the organizers to bring in other acts that you might not have seen otherwise.

Diamond,
Very sorry you missed us. There were quite a few RV owners and builders that would have loved a chat and to show off their planes. I believe there was a count early Wednesday of 65 planes in HBC and I would estimate 85% of those to be RV's.
This was my third year camping with a plane but my first in HBC with my new RV-9. What a difference.
1. Mary Jane providing beer, soda, dinner and hospitality for a donation is golden. If I had known this was the case I would not have had to fly in water and beer in a cooler.
2. The social aspect was great. I was able to meet many of the people I have talked with on this site.
3. I understand that SNF is the one that provided the tent, bottled water and ice. Kudos to SNF.

I will be flying to Oshkosh this year but was disappointed to hear that HBC is not the same without Mary Jane.

See y'all next year.

I flew in on Thursday & Friday and parked in the HB transient area and found it to be very well supported. My arrival was between 0900 & 0930. I was parked in aisle 10 and was double stacked both days.
Friday, on my inbound, there were issues where the aiport was closed due to a biplane with a flat tire on the runway. That may have discouraged some inbound flyers.

Saturday, it was foggy on the central west coast which may be the reason for the lower turnout.

Overall, Thursday had a good crowd. Friday, had much better attendance as I noticed the car parking area was completely full.

Other issues I've noticed the past few years is that many local pilots opt to drive in and not fly. Some question their skill level in close proximity to other aircraft. That's ok, but I do try encourage them to fly in with a right seater and another set of eyes.

There's nothing better than flying in to a flyin event especially with an airplane you built.

One other thing about last year's trip to SnF, we landed just before dark and they wouldn't let us go to HBC. Because of that, we had to park at one of the FBO's. The FBO charged us a $20 landing fee and $20 to park overnight on their ramp.

Not cool!

HBC?

Hi folks,

Sorry to be dumb, but I have never attended Sun and fun. Have thought about it for next year. I take it HBC is the Home Built Camping? I looked on the map, and did not see anything labeled that. Where is it located? It would be a hoot to make the trip from out here in the West.

thanks

Geoff

Here's a positive thought!

To add to the opinions thus far, one contributing factor to the reduction in attendance could be directly related to the addition of RV enthusiasts of a reduced age. . I would love to attend SNF and OSH but frankly with a full time job and family, my vacation time is used for them. I can catch up on SNF and all the vendors within 15 minutes in the internet. The other 48 weekends out of the year I spend devoted to this hobby either in my garage building or flying locally. Heck, can't even make all the local events. Rather than gripe about the negatives here the best thing we can do is infect more of the younger generation with the bug,

This just in:

The number of registered planes in HBC last year was 75. This year it was 101.

MJ said that this year we swallowed up 2.5 rows which were dedicated to the seaplanes.

Next year there are plans for a kids play area in HBC and talks are underway for more expansion and improvements. Go MJ!

Oh BTW, a beautiful Hatz CB1 biplane won the best plans built category. Rick Hansen - nice guy, excellent craftsman. Congratualations!

Ironflight said:

I have only been doing SnF for a few years, but my observations are that HBC is where the life is - it is just too bad it is so far from the rest of the show. HBP is extremely problematic. it is right in front of the main show, where the public can see it - but the downside of being cordoned off from your plane for six hours is a killer. I planned to have dinner with friends who were staying in HBC and said I'd pick them up at 1800 - but then got busy and didn't get out to close up and cover Mikey before they closed the field at 1300. Had to wait at the gate until the show finished (late) and was almost an hour late for dinner.

If only HBC wasn't so dang far away!

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We went 2 years ago and discovered the HBP problem accidently. Wow, did that screw things up for us.

We're not campers but HBC sounds like the deal... if it wasn't so far away that we weren't even aware of it.

Oh well.

HBP

To add to the discussion. I fly my RV in and park at HB but tent camp at vintage so I am close to volunteer parking planes at HBP. I have to say that each year there are less RVs making long distance trips to SNF and more local arrivals. We averaged about 40 local planes per day that came just for the day with 75% of them RVs. HBP looked pretty bare in the evening and early morning but the rows had filled so that we were tailing in the RVs by late morning. Weather was great for arrival early in the week but serious storm lines blocked the North by Friday with some areas blocked for days. I returned home on Friday and after four storm stops luckily had a VFR window open up to make it home. Others like me left early to make it home and I'm sure that many VFR weekend arrivers cancelled due to the storms.

flyr747 said:

I think the bigger reason for the low attendance of homebuilt airplanes besides the points Ivan made is due to the location of the HB parking and 100% restricted access from noon to 6 pm or later each day. In other fly-ins and air shows including all other areas of SNF, people are allowed to walk around the airplanes and in most cases talk to the pilot / builder / owner. The current configuration of SNF does not allow for that due the proximity to the air show box. Either the box needs to be moved or HB parking needs to be moved so builders can show off their airplanes and others can view them throughout the day like the static displays the corporations bring in. The current showcase is the large certified corporations that spend the big dollars to have a central presence but probably have very few sales or impact to those in attendance. If the focus was shifted back to the Homebuilt airplanes the excitement to build and fly one of these airplanes would be spread by the other builders and pilots as in years past. That said, we had a great time and will be back next year but I know it could be better.

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... I couldn't agree more! This is becoming the norm at many venues. Thanks, Allan..

SnF notes

I flew my RV this year after skipping the last 2 years. Prior to that I drove over in '10 and '11.
- The Lake Parker arrival is just as simple as the Fisk arrival at OSH. It just happens a lot quicker because it's about 15 miles shorter.
- I think the public stay out of HBP because there is only the one access gate in the chain link fence near HB HQ and it's perceived as "off limits".
- The vendor count was definitely up over prior years.
- Geico is not selling airplane insurance even though they had a huge outdoor display nearby NBP.
- A 1/4 lb hot dog and a sweet tea cost $8!
- Airplane tie downs are no longer rented. Purchase for $25. Cash only.

So after reading all these posts, it seems clear that what I thought was HB camping was just a huge field of other planes, I guess. One of the frustrating things I observed was the pitiful map that came with the program. I'm a fairly savvy map person, but I struggled all day trying to find things based on the map. At one point I even stopped two guys that were working the event and asked for directions. They looked at my map, spun it around a few times and then admitted they had no clue. I guess when I finish my 9, I'll try SnF again, but will stay closer to home for the time being and look forward to meeting more of you folks at Osh this year.

What I think is unfortunate is that the display space has been priced out of the reach of the small vendors. I was hoping to see and talk to Avery, Cleaveland, JD at Infinity, the Nuvite guys, etc...all I see when I walk in vendors like ACS, Garmin, etc. Why can't the show organizers block off some space at a low cost for small vendors? Lord knows there's enough space there to do it if they wanted to. I don't come to SNF to buy a King Air; I come to find sources for my homebuilding hobby. Very disappointed this year.

VIP 9/27 club

Well, I couldn't fit all five of us in the Maule and since I'm in the process of giving away my RV-6a (couldn't fit there either), we had to drive in. From Atlanta, 8 hrs. Spent the night in Orlando, drove over on Friday. Gave Sun-n-Fun $600.00 for VIP tickets. I was supposed to get a VIP sticker to get to the VIP parking but no joy. So, I got stopped every 50 yards wanting to know why I was driving to VIP. No problem, I have lots of patience and I knew the parking was going to be good. Good it was. It was as close as you could get. Then they brought a golf cart to pick us up and ferry us to the VIP tent which was nice. VIP tent got us air-condition area and front row seating for airshow which was nice. Lunch was BRATS that my daughter called hot dogs. Unlimited water and cold drinks was also nice. Airshow seating was supposed to have our name on the chair but no joy. No problem, since all the seats were good. The bugs were annoying, kinda like oversize nats. When all was closing, we got a nice ride back to those great parking spots. However, since the parking spots were so close, it meant that we are at the end of the line. Waited 1hr plus for traffic to clear before we could leave. Watched a movie in the van, no problem. Its been 10 years since I've been to SnF. My observations was there were a lot more commercial vendors, less experimental/homebuilt stuff. Also, the airshow had a lot of boring wait time. Too much piston aerobatics (they were good, but once you seen one, they all started to run together) warbirds were good, needed more though. Didn't see the RV team perform and that was a bummer. The F22 was a great show and with it being so early in the program, it would have been better at the end next to Blue Angles, which were good. Show lasted about 4 hours but it seems it could have been done in less. I think having different announcers, especially the lady, was very good. The one announcer that dominated the show, could have talked less and the other announcers more. Did I mention how great a job the lady announcer did? Great job whoever you were.

The VIP toilet trailers were nice, but I kinda got a little sea-sick when I visited for an extended period of time (hot dogs?, sour kraut?, or brats? or combination?). I guess the ladies side was so busy with some of the larger gals going up and down on the steps, that our side rocked like a ship in a typhoon. My dad said that he rode out a typhoon on a ship during the Korean War in the south china sea and he puked green. Thank goodness I was able to vacate the ship before that dreadful event occurred.

I guess the question is will I send them more Ben Franklin's for VIP 9/27 club seating next year? Ask me about 9 months from now when I have forgotten all this petty stuff and I'm cold from another global winter and looking for some sun n fun. Besides, its only money and time, both of which are scarce commodities these days...

good day.