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I guess you're right. I am speculating that most people being disciplined pilots will stay safe. I guess it can always be the un-disciplined pilot that hits you. Just stating that we don't need to know the details of this accident right now to be safe pilots. Do you disagree?
 
The restrictions (rules) on this forum in regard to accident discussion are most likely a result of the abuses many of us have seen on various forums in years past.

Specifically, what "rules" are you referring to Sam. I've read the posting rules for VansAirforce but I don't see any rules regarding discussion of accidents.

Attempts to enforce an unwritten law always tends to be divisive. ;)
 
I guess you're right. I am speculating that most people being disciplined pilots will stay safe. I guess it can always be the un-disciplined pilot that hits you. Just stating that we don't need to know the details of this accident right now to be safe pilots. Do you disagree?

Some will argue that a good pilot learns from the experiences of others. I spend a lot of time studying aircraft accidents to help me to understand how the accident sequence begins. My hope is that given enough knowledge of aircraft accidents I can recognize an accident "chain" when it begins rather than wait for the situation to develop. Having said this I do agree there are situations beyond our control but most accidents are a chain of events that lead to a crash. We all know this, we all have read this. Therefore...understanding and studying crashes is a valuable tool in being a safe pilot. Just my two cents.
 
Discussion

Not speculating on this accident, I would like to see a discussion about instrument approaches into the Lake Placid Airport(and posibly other airports in the mountains) and the special circumstances one should consider.
 
Not speculating on this accident, I would like to see a discussion about instrument approaches into the Lake Placid Airport(and posibly other airports in the mountains) and the special circumstances one should consider.

Valid. I agree.
 
Okay, seriously, a look at the approach charts for klkp will show some features that appear, not uniquely but maybe more often, at airports with nearby obstructions:
Relatively high minimum descent altitudes. The approach from the east is over high terrain. The approach from the west has a turn toward higher terrain on the miss, which keeps the MDA high.
The approach from the east is circle to land only, even though it is within 30 degrees of runway 32. Issue is you may have to circle to lose enough altitude.
Approach from the west (gps 14) has its missed approach point almost 2 miles from the runway. Again, needed for terrain clearance on the miss.
Not authorized at night. This is pretty common for circling approaches around terrain, since they are a quasi visual maneuver. Not sure why the night prohibition on straight in gps 14, but maybe because of the nearly 2 mile visual segment combined with no approach lighting.

All this is due to nearby higher terrain.KSLK is only a dozen or so miles away, but it's in a relatively flat area. It has an LPV that takes you down to 200 and 1/2, authorized at night, etc, although circling is prohibited to some runways, and allowed to others only if certain lighting is functional.
 
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=747652&postcount=45

No, there is no specific rule, but it is what the boss wants.

Lots of this forum "rules" are this way--------makes it a lot easier IMHO

If you're suggesting that having no written rules allows for greater flexibility of enforcement ("makes it a lot easier") then I would suggest that this was the ideal thread in which to apply that flexibility.

This was an accident in which there were no injuries. It was an accident in which the pilot and passengers made subsequent public statements about the incident. Those statements included confirmation that the aircraft was on an IFR flight plan but the pilot departed from the plan in an attempt to perform a visual approach at dusk in a snowy mountainous area. This led to a controlled flight into terrain.

This is not speculation. These are the facts as reported by the pilot himself and currently available through several internet sources including a previous post on this very thread.

What more are we expecting from an NTSB report (if indeed there ever is an NTSB report). Surely the pilot himself has explained quite clearly what went on here.

There's lots of lessons to be learnt from this accident. Many people will have valuable opinions. And we should be discussing them right now while it's topical and of value instead of letting the thread rot in the archives.

This accident is enormously similar to the very famous crash of a Piper Chieftain at Mt Hotham, Australia, in the winter of 2005. The aircraft slammed into a snowy ridge 3 miles from the runway threshhold at dusk as the pilot was attempting a visual approach under low cloud cover. The big difference was that in 2005 the 3 people on board all perished.

That flight clearly highlighted the dangers of flying into mountainous airstrips in failing light and the very real threat of the pilot suffering from "flat light phenomenon" in snowy conditions.

In the interests of safety I think this thread should now be opened up to further constructive comments. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by throttling it. Are you there Doug ?
 
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Approach

The point that I hoped others would bring up:
Left traffic for both directions
Traffic pattern altitude 2700'
Pattern altitude is 400'(round numbers) BELOW lowest GPS approach minimum
Now a hypothetical:
Runway 14 approach, you break out and choose to circle to runway 14 because of the need to loose altitude. At 300' agl on final for runway 14 you encounter a fog bank. I know what I would do, I want to see what others say.
 
One thing in the "chain" that never occurred to me was the dimming of the various displays in my panel. I have three displays from three different vendors. None of them can tie into an external dimmer control. They all have one (or two) button presses to get to a dimming setting and then turn the knob.

I was not thinking this was a concern given the transition from day to night does not happen "quickly". If the aircraft were equipped for IFR, I can see how quickly light levels might change.

First, I'll be practicing the display dimming steps so they are not obtuse. Second, I will put serious thought into what I might change if/when the aircraft gets IFR capable.

I appreciate the clarity Frank.

BTW - the "appropriate gear for conditions along the entire route" is another good reminder. As a "Mainer" my cars always had the requisite clothing and equipment. My Airplane needs to be equally equipped.
 
I?ve just added the following to the rules section (http://www.vansairforce.net/rules.htm) of the site:

?Threads speculating about the causes of a crash/incident are not allowed here. Once the governing agency?s PROBABLE CAUSE or FINAL REPORT has been listed online, then we can discuss it until we are blue in the face, hopefully learning something that will make flying safer for us.?​
I just took a moment to visit the NTSB accident page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx) and selected the following criteria:

- Category: ?Airplane?
- Amateur Built: ?Yes?
- Model: ?RV?
- Report Status: ?Probable Cause?

It returned (525) results that we can discuss and learn from if you so choose - dragged and dropped into my spreadsheet software. The same information is available to everyone. Discuss these all you want, and learn! Any recent accident is most likely very similar to dozens of accidents in the past, accidents that have already gone through the investigation process, etc.

Partial screen capture of my thirty second query:

29vyoox.jpg


If you would like to speculate here on a recent accident, don?t. Instead I would suggest you set your phone?s alarm to remind you in about six to nine months to go to http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx and do a refresh. The probable cause document may very well be online at that point.

I?m closing this thread now, as the ?we are glad you are alive? replies morphed in great part into a discussion of how and why the site is run like it is.

Thank you,
Doug Reeves (site owner)
 
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