In this month's Flying magazine article on the Garmin 88 and 39, they offhandedly mention that the 2020 mandate for ADSB only applies to Mode C veil flying. Is that correct? I am not as up to date on this topic as many of you are. I would think if true, the Mode C limitation should be highlighted more often for those that spend little or no time in these areas.
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ADSB Mandate
- Thread starter Peterk
- Start date
Tandem46
Well Known Member
Don't forget, Class C is in AND above. Especially out east, many Class C's only go up to 5 or 6k', but if you want to fly over the top, you'll still need mode C.
I don't think the majority of experimental aircraft owners have to worry about the 2020 mandate since they don't fly into class B or C airports with expensive fuel and FBOs services. I fly often to Raleigh and stop landing at KRDU (AVGAS $7.67) class C and went for KJNX (AVGAS $5.60) class E due to $100 in fuel savings and friendlier atmosphere. I don't see any experimentals on the class C ramp FBOs and much less on the class B ramps. Why would you go to a B or C FBO where they charge you more and none has MOGAS. Check on fuel prices at AirNav and you will see a big difference between those at B & C and those at E or D.
Pepe
[ed. Troll. Banned. dr]
Pepe
[ed. Troll. Banned. dr]
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Tandem46
Well Known Member
Wow Pepe, that's a big statement! I believe there are a LOT of RVs that live in and around class B and C airspace throughout this nation. Not to mention traveling on cross country flights would greatly be hindered if you had to circumvent all Class B and C. And then there's the 10,000' rule. Summer time often finds lots of RVs above 10K', especially if you live out west in the mountains. I dare say I've been in, over, or through every Class B and most Class C's in this country in my RV over the past 8 years just from normal, everyday CCXs. I know I'm not alone!
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Just go to Flyaware website and see how many RVs are flying into Class B or C or above 10K in comparison to Mooneys or Cirrus which has a similar population. I found a typical ratio of 10 Mooneys/Cirrus per 1 RV. This does not surprise me since it is rare that I hear ATC talking to an RV pilot.
Pepe
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I have an SL30 & SL40 to help ensure I can talk to ATC. Near misses highly detract from my fun of flying. I'm getting ADSB complient as soon as Brantel, Stein & other electronic Gurus agree on what I need. I want to SEE & be SEEN. Smacking a bird is bad enough; but comeon, hitting metal is not good & is very possible. I keep my eyes outside & have a swivel neck; but want ALL the help I can get.
I sincerely hope others feel the same. Let's be safe & have fun.
Cheers,
Plenty of Rv's and other experimentals based at the airports around Phoenix within the mode C veil.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.
Those are just folks who file flight plans or use flight following. It conservatively estimate we have hundreds of RV's in the Houston area that live within the Class B (Mode C) veil and fly regularly. The only way this won't affect you is if you live in the middle of nowhere and don't fly cross-country much. Granted, there are lots of RV'ers that only have their airplanes for local recreational flying - but a huge number that use them for transportation.
The RV community is quite large, and this will affect many people and airplanes.
Paul
So assuming there are equal number of Cirrus and RVs flying around in class B or C RV pilots just don't file or use flight following. Why Cirrus pilots do it and not RV pilots?
Pepe
[ed. Troll. Banned. dr]
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All the time
I fly between 250-300 RV hours a year, mostly cross country to shows. It would be very detrimental to have to avoid mode C airspace, actually, it would be a pain in the BUTT.
ADSB is coming and to have a useful airplane you are going to have to participate.
I fly between 250-300 RV hours a year, mostly cross country to shows. It would be very detrimental to have to avoid mode C airspace, actually, it would be a pain in the BUTT.
ADSB is coming and to have a useful airplane you are going to have to participate.
I know I am getting baited....
This is not a discussion about flight plans or flight following. I do not believe Cirrus pilots are different than RV pilots. They just fly a different aircraft.
Sorry, I am a long time lurker, and a new member. My apologies if this comment is not in good taste with the wide range of membership here.
I'm not into ADS-B either, just based on the concept that I am forced to buy avionics, and carry it's weight, so someone else can use it. I fly out of an airport that is inside the mode C veil.
Thankfully, 2020 is a long ways away in computer developement terms.
I expect it will be obsolete by the time it's required, like microwave landing, who thinks of it now that WAAS is working?
Now you can buy a hand held device that give you ADS-B weather on iPad. That sure was not intended, but what a great work around
ADS-B IN weather was supposed to be the carrot that helped convince one to buy in to equipping with ADS-B OUT.
Why would you want all these expensive government contracted ground stations when internet service would provide better service and is already established? Plus, it's multi use and serves the wider public.
Avionics will end up moving this way because it will be better in every way except the political way.
Knowing the history of avionics developement, and failed government mandates...Many pilots I know are adopting a wait and see attitude, especially in light of the 'not completely defined' nature of the FAAs rule making. Who wants to equip a $40,000 airplane with $10,000 of avionics that you 'hope' will be in compliance with the newest Nextgen rule?
Thankfully, 2020 is a long ways away in computer developement terms.
I expect it will be obsolete by the time it's required, like microwave landing, who thinks of it now that WAAS is working?
Now you can buy a hand held device that give you ADS-B weather on iPad. That sure was not intended, but what a great work around
ADS-B IN weather was supposed to be the carrot that helped convince one to buy in to equipping with ADS-B OUT.
Why would you want all these expensive government contracted ground stations when internet service would provide better service and is already established? Plus, it's multi use and serves the wider public.
Avionics will end up moving this way because it will be better in every way except the political way.
Knowing the history of avionics developement, and failed government mandates...Many pilots I know are adopting a wait and see attitude, especially in light of the 'not completely defined' nature of the FAAs rule making. Who wants to equip a $40,000 airplane with $10,000 of avionics that you 'hope' will be in compliance with the newest Nextgen rule?
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I think I will delay worrying a little longer
Yes, I do not like the Government knowing my every move. I talk only when required. That's my preference as long as I am still allowed to have one. To think today's technology, excellence of design, regulations and price are going to remain stable for 7 or 8 years ... well I guess it could happen - I just haven't seen it in my life time. If I should live to see 2020 I'll just buy the latest compatible whiz box and put it in.
Bob Axsom
Yes, I do not like the Government knowing my every move. I talk only when required. That's my preference as long as I am still allowed to have one. To think today's technology, excellence of design, regulations and price are going to remain stable for 7 or 8 years ... well I guess it could happen - I just haven't seen it in my life time. If I should live to see 2020 I'll just buy the latest compatible whiz box and put it in.
Bob Axsom
vlittle
Well Known Member
Hang on a second here. Passive traffic monitors will NOT be obsoleted by ADS-B.
ADS-B will be most effective when in range of ground stations that can provide TIS-B and FIS-B. If you install a UAT, you will have not have traffic coverage outside the range of these stations. A passive traffic monitor, however, will work in areas of radar coverage that don't support the uplinks (mode A and mode C) and will pick up the 1090ES transponders who are constantly pinging even outside of radar coverage.
Hence, passive traffic monitors have a transitional roll, plus an ongoing roll for UAT (as opposed to mode-s) equipped aircraft.
HOWEVER (this is the biggest point), when you cross the border into Canada, ADS-B is not supported (UAT or mode-s). You'll need a passive traffic monitor to help you avoid traffic.
Conclusion: You will need both ADS-B hardware and passive traffic monitors for maximum protection and flexibility.
In my opinion the Monroy ATD-300 (and ATD-300+) are the best passive traffic monitors available. Banning Jose from comment on this forum is a short sighted move, because he has more expertise than almost anyone else on traffic monitoring devices of any kind.
[ed. I respectfully disagree, Vern. He had plenty of opportunity to identify himself and chose not to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet#Concern_troll). dr]
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vlittle
Well Known Member
... well, the VAF policy is to not to allow promotion of a product unless you are an adertiser on the site. If he had identified himself, his posts would have been deleted for this reason. The law of unintended consequences applies. In my opinion, important technical discussions have been stifled because of this policy. Sometimes issues are more important than policy.
Heck, it's not just my opinion, I have proof: I no longer comment on any issued related to my Vx Aviation products because of this.
Without putting words in his mouth, I will take a stab at DR's line of thought. Pepe could have mentioned why he felt the way he did...he had a financial/professional interest in flight outside of the Mode C veil. Such an initial proclamation would have set the background to his comments without an advertising bias. I'm certain Doug would have allowed that. Look how many times Eggenfellner has been allowed to actually advertise on here before being asked (again) to abstain. Once it was obvious that Pepe's intent was to hide his identity, he was a goner.
Your are correct, there will always be a place for passive traffic monitors. Everyone will not fly in Mode C areas nor wish to pay this price...and still want the security of some traffic avoidance.
Doug got this one right. He is following his own rules on his own website that he refuses to charge for. I'd say he's a lot more tolerant than I would be.
Your are correct, there will always be a place for passive traffic monitors. Everyone will not fly in Mode C areas nor wish to pay this price...and still want the security of some traffic avoidance.
Doug got this one right. He is following his own rules on his own website that he refuses to charge for. I'd say he's a lot more tolerant than I would be.
The irony is that passive traffic monitors only work because basically everyone has a transponder. Even more than that, they only really work in remote areas because airliners have TCAS. If you really follow the argument to the logical conclusion that you don't need a transponder in non-transponder areas, than your argument is that passive monitors are totally worthless!
--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
kentb
Well Known Member
FYI
I just got back from a nice trip to Kalispell, MT (from the Portland area). My NavWorx ADBS system (displaying on my AFS EFIS) work great. I use flight following and when ATC gave me traffic advise, I already had them on my screen. I seemed to work the whole way.
I flew 9500 going east and 10500 on the return trip.
I spent $2500 to add this to my plane and if fits behind the baggage compartment and weights very little (2 lbs?)
On coming into the pdx area I started getting weather displayed also.
I love it. Sometimes I start getting service on the ground, but often I'll get service at about 200 AGL locally.
Kent
I just got back from a nice trip to Kalispell, MT (from the Portland area). My NavWorx ADBS system (displaying on my AFS EFIS) work great. I use flight following and when ATC gave me traffic advise, I already had them on my screen. I seemed to work the whole way.
I flew 9500 going east and 10500 on the return trip.
I spent $2500 to add this to my plane and if fits behind the baggage compartment and weights very little (2 lbs?)
On coming into the pdx area I started getting weather displayed also.
I love it. Sometimes I start getting service on the ground, but often I'll get service at about 200 AGL locally.
Kent
PaigeHoffart
Well Known Member
Kent,
I believe there is a requirement to keep the UAT squawk code sync'd with your Mode A code. Does the AFS handle this, or do you have to set codes in two places?
The two simple solutions I'm aware of are the GDL-88 (handles it by listening to your Mode A transponder), and of course 1090ES operation.
Paige
I believe there is a requirement to keep the UAT squawk code sync'd with your Mode A code. Does the AFS handle this, or do you have to set codes in two places?
The two simple solutions I'm aware of are the GDL-88 (handles it by listening to your Mode A transponder), and of course 1090ES operation.
Paige
w1curtis
Well Known Member
This can also be handled by a GTX327 pin 20 (RS232 OUT 1) tied to the Navworx pin 33 (Transponder Control). The GTX327 RS-232 out port would then be configured for REMOTE. I presume this would also work with the GTX32 also in addition to the ES units.
The firmware on the GTX-327 needs to be 2.1 or higher.
kentb
Well Known Member
Not yet.
No need to enter a new code into the ADB-S. ATC don't appear to want that currently. That may be required in 2020, but not now.
The EFIS can talk to the NavWorx and we ATC will start working with ADB-S squawk codes AFT will add that to the EFIS unit. I don't think that my mode C transponder can output it's squawk code. I don't know that ATC would want the same 4 digit squawk code on ADB-S.
The system will get define better in the coming years, but for now I have traffic and weather on my EFIS screen.
Kent
No need to enter a new code into the ADB-S. ATC don't appear to want that currently. That may be required in 2020, but not now.
The EFIS can talk to the NavWorx and we ATC will start working with ADB-S squawk codes AFT will add that to the EFIS unit. I don't think that my mode C transponder can output it's squawk code. I don't know that ATC would want the same 4 digit squawk code on ADB-S.
The system will get define better in the coming years, but for now I have traffic and weather on my EFIS screen.
Kent
Even if you aren't being directly asked by controllers to set the code in your ADS-B box, the FAA requires this of you:
And the AIM defines the requirement in 4-5-7c.2, excerpted below:
Also, see advisory circular 20-165 (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165.pdf) which defines what you must do when you install ADS-B out in your aircraft, and requires flight procedures to be updated to ensure the codes are synchronized.
Also, the current TSO requires that your transponder and your ADS-B box self-synchronize. The above situation may not be allowed in 2020 when all your ADS-B OUT equipment MUST be certified to DO-260B. You will have to have a way that you only set the code once and both boxes use the same code. This is one of the primary reasons that Mode-S transponders are so much cheaper and simpler to make ADS-B out compliant than a Mode C + UAT is.
The FAA even has a document describing how to move an aircraft from DO-260A to DO-260B, which is the current MOPS for ADS-B: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=4b81143bd6ee68c9e12e230df5b10b81&tab=core&tabmode=list&print_preview=1
--Ian
Dynon Avionics
And the AIM defines the requirement in 4-5-7c.2, excerpted below:
Also, see advisory circular 20-165 (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165.pdf) which defines what you must do when you install ADS-B out in your aircraft, and requires flight procedures to be updated to ensure the codes are synchronized.
Also, the current TSO requires that your transponder and your ADS-B box self-synchronize. The above situation may not be allowed in 2020 when all your ADS-B OUT equipment MUST be certified to DO-260B. You will have to have a way that you only set the code once and both boxes use the same code. This is one of the primary reasons that Mode-S transponders are so much cheaper and simpler to make ADS-B out compliant than a Mode C + UAT is.
The FAA even has a document describing how to move an aircraft from DO-260A to DO-260B, which is the current MOPS for ADS-B: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=4b81143bd6ee68c9e12e230df5b10b81&tab=core&tabmode=list&print_preview=1
--Ian
Dynon Avionics
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