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Landing distance

craig.roser

Active Member
After taking ownership of an RV8 I purposefully put her, now named El ZunZun, on an uncrowded field with long and multiple runways to make sure I could fly on windier days and also practice crosswind landings. After gaining greater proficiency I've now moved to a field with a single shorter runway and feel confident about landing on the narrower and shorter 2500 ft, with crosswinds up to about 10 knots.

But I see Van's publishes Landing Distance 1400 lbs 350 ft 1800 lbs 500 ft.
Who can do that, and how!

In what distance do you normally land?
 
After taking ownership of an RV8 I purposefully put her, now named El ZunZun, on an uncrowded field with long and multiple runways to make sure I could fly on windier days and also practice crosswind landings. After gaining greater proficiency I've now moved to a field with a single shorter runway and feel confident about landing on the narrower and shorter 2500 ft, with crosswinds up to about 10 knots.
But I see Van's publishes Landing Distance 1400 lbs 350 ft 1800 lbs 500 ft.
Who can do that, and how!
In what distance do you normally land?

I flew my RV-6 out of my 20' X 1500' strip for many years with no problem. No reason an RV-8 shouldn't do the same with a competent pilot familiar with the airplane.
 
In RV-4 1,000' easy, maybe 800' if I try. I can't do 500'. Drag it in with power slower than usual, 3 point, flaps up as soon as you touch and hard on the brakes as soon as the tail is solidly down
 
But I see Van's publishes Landing Distance 1400 lbs 350 ft 1800 lbs 500 ft.
Who can do that, and how!

In what distance do you normally land?

At 1400 lbs or so solo weight I can easily make the first turnoff which is 1400 ft. This is however in the summertime in Utah, so density altitude is 7500 ft+. The runway is 8000 long, so I rarely try to stop as short as I can. I have stopped in as little as 530 ft, (measured from touchdown to turned off the runway). That was on not such a hot day, but still 4500 MSL.

I suspect Van's numbers are for sea level on a standard day (i.e. fairly cool).

The key is to not have any extra speed. Have just enough to flare. On the 530 ft landing I didn't really have enough to flare and smacked it down pretty hard (no damage, but not comfortable). Don't recommend that, but did stop really short.
 
RV-6 here. At 1400 pounds (or thereabouts) I can do 600' landings pretty consistently with medium/hard braking and no other heroics. No flap retraction, no dragging it in, just a power off touchdown at minimum flying speed. With practice (and dumping flaps, heavy, heavy braking, etc) I could get closer to Van's numbers, but anything under 400' would require near-perfect technique. But that's what max performance numbers are based on - what can the airplane do if flown perfectly.
 
350 feet sounds reasonable for a light plane from the point the wheels touch the ground to a stop. It's a delicate balance of braking without nosing over.

Looking at my home airport, from the numbers to the first taxiway is very close to 150 yards, and I know I've landed on the numbers and made the first taxi way. So I think someone better than me can do 350 feet.
 
W48

At W48 Essex Skypark, we have a Runway that is 2000ft x 28ft. Lots of RVs use the grass next to it when it's really windy. Seven RVs on the field and we have big trees (75Ft) all around. We also have a Bonanza, a Mooney, a few 172s and Stearman Model 75 that tows banners off the field. Wheel Landings: The trick is to be on speed and touch down on the numbers and have the tail down before the halfway point as the runway slopes down hill from the middle. Even then, 1500 feet is the norm and that is not beating on the airplane.
 
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Landing

I have flown from my backyard 1300’ strip for years with a 4 and now an 8. Pilots with thousands of feet of runway seem to get sloppy with speed control on short final and think that my strip is not possible to land on.That 1.3 thing is way too fast for short fields.Get comfortable with minimum controllable airspeeds.
 
I have flown from my backyard 1300’ strip for years with a 4 and now an 8. Pilots with thousands of feet of runway seem to get sloppy with speed control on short final and think that my strip is not possible to land on.That 1.3 thing is way too fast for short fields.Get comfortable with minimum controllable airspeeds.

So if not the 1.3 thing, what short field landing speed do you shoot for in your -8?

Also what is the speed at which the plane starts to talk to you (burbles) for power off stalls in the landing config?

Reason I ask is that I've been working on short field landings in my -8 and I got them down quite a bit but that's coming in at 1.3

Thanks
 
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I too would love to get more info about how to land my RV-8 over a 50ft obstacle at MTOW in 500 ft. I could easily do it with a 25kt headwind, but not sure if that's what you guys are talking about. :D

During my testing I was using a very conservative speed that would go into my POH because I didn't want the next guy that owns my RV-8 to get cocky. I used 72kts at the top of the trees (50ft), and was at 69kts during touchdown. I'm not flying less than 1.3 over a 50ft obstacle, even if I get some bragging rights.

We're required to use essentially the methods in this document:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_25-7D.pdf

I'll say that I'm about as good a pilot as I am a golfer, and I have some moments of brilliance while doing both, but mostly around average and just try to stay out of the rough by taking conservative shots.

That said, we're talking about a physics problem - if I fly with a certain amount of energy at a certain point over the approach, I've gotta get rid of that energy without dinging the aircraft. True, I was not smoking the binders, since I don't really want to buy a new prop, but I could have gotten a few feet that way. But 500ft? Over a 50ft obstacle? MTOW? I can't see it without a tailhook or a nice headwind.
 
It won't be over a 50 foot obstacle, you can be sure of that:)

This ^^. RVs can be landed in a pretty short distance, but not over an obstacle. My shortest landing was somewhere in the 330-ft range, on asphalt with me, half tanks, no baggage, sea level. 500-ft on grass is pretty easy in same conditions.

Have made the 4 landing strips at Byrd's (ArkanSTOL), but you have to be holding your mouth just right.
 
Van's published landing distances are measured from where the wheel touches down. At least that's what remember reading when I was getting longer landing distances than what's listed.

When I was obtaining data for my POH, I choose to measure from the end of the runway, adding additional length for obstacles. Each person must factor in their experience level and personal minimums to determine what they are comfortable with.
 
Ok this thread is very useful, and I'd like to find out more about what people use for speeds and altitudes on approaches. I realize that different types (RV6,7,8,10) may generate different numbers and also even within the same types there may be differences.

I'm most interested in the -8, but for generality and usefulness to all, everyone's info is welcome.

I'm looking to add more precision to my approaches.

Ok so let's first begin with the nominal approach:

As you enter the "groove" - roll out of your 90 turn from base leg or the roll out from a curved approach - 3 degree final approach, what airspeed and altitude are you looking for?

Thanks
 
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Ok this thread is very useful, and I'd like to find out more about what people use for speeds and altitudes on approaches. I realize that different types (RV6,7,8,10) may generate different numbers and also even within the same types there may be differences.

I'm most interested in the -8, but for generality and usefulness to all, everyone's info is welcome.

I'm looking to add more precision to my approaches.

Ok so as you enter the "groove" - roll out of your 90 turn from base leg or the roll out from a curved approach - 3 degree final approach, what airspeed and altitude are you looking for?

Thanks

Keep in mind that techniques used for obtaining the shortest possible landing are not appropriate for every day general flying use.
They put you flying much closer to the performance edge than is appropriate when it is not needed.
Example - The currently published landing distance of the RV-14A at gross weight is 340 ft. I flew the test flights that established that distance, but I would never use that flight profile at any other time unless I specifically needed to land that short.
 
Keep in mind that techniques used for obtaining the shortest possible landing are not appropriate for every day general flying use.
They put you flying much closer to the performance edge than is appropriate when it is not needed.
Example - The currently published landing distance of the RV-14A at gross weight is 340 ft. I flew the test flights that established that distance, but I would never use that flight profile at any other time unless I specifically needed to land that short.

I should have been more clear....my question does NOT have anything to do with shortest landing distance.

I've adjusted my question above.

I'm asking for the nominal setup.

From there we can talk about adjustments.

Thanks
 
... As you enter the "groove" - roll out of your 90 turn from base leg or the roll out from a curved approach - 3 degree final approach, what airspeed and altitude are you looking for?
I maintain minimum 80kts until on final, then slow it down to 72kts over the last obstacle, then down to about 65kts over the threshold. Throttle usually idle the last 50ft or so. This gives me plenty of energy for a tailwheel low wheel landing. I'm starting to fly the AoA more, and my landings are getting a lot more consistent. When the winds are steady or calm, I use full flaps. Gusty or crosswinds, half flaps. I've only got just under 200 landings on my RV-8, so I'm sure you'll get better advice from the guys who have more experience.
 
I maintain minimum 80kts until on final, then slow it down to 72kts over the last obstacle, then down to about 65kts over the threshold. Throttle usually idle the last 50ft or so.

Ok here's my data:

Last flight test of stall speeds (IAS knots) was April, at 5000 feet, after some mods to the plane which included a new prop, 217lbs under gross weight max of 1800 (i.e. 1583).

Power off Clean:

Burble: 65
Break: 60


Power off Landing Config(i.e. full flaps):

Burble: 60
Break: 55


So for:

Power off Clean: 1.3 * 60 = 78kts
Power Off landing config: 1.3 * 55 = 72kts (71.5 but I round up for safety)

So for nominal landing, full flaps, I try for 78 in the pattern and then roll out on final approach at 72kts. 65 over the threshold.

But I usually have to add a tiny bit of power during the flare if I feel the bottom dropping out when I'm a foot or two off the ground. Which, of course, extends the float as I'm trying to hold it off for a tail low wheelie.

Other techniques would be of interest.
 
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And the CG. An aft CG will reduce stall speed and the downforce you have to apply with the elevator.

Ok while all this is necessary for exctitude, I'm not looking for exactness.

I'm looking for what people shoot for, for speeds and altitude on rollout to final: first for the nominal case and then for short field landings.

Each landing is going to be different and no one is attempting to assess their CG, or fraction under gross weight, when trying to land in the normal case and then for the short field case. They do not and can not know what those are in the middle of landing.

I'm not trying to generate a flight test graph or POH from this conversation.

I'm trying to get a feel for what people shoot for and how it works for them.
 
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Thanks for the reply. I see that at gross your clean stall is not quite 4 knots higher. Just to be contrarian, I wouldn’t say ‘no one’ thinks about landing weight and approach speeds. I do, every time. Of course, the -10 has a much larger possible variation in weight.
 
Ok while all this is necessary for exctitude, I'm not looking for exactness.

I'm looking for what people shoot for, for speeds and altitude on rollout to final: first for the nominal case and then for short field landings.

Each landing is going to be different and no one is attempting to assess their CG, or fraction under gross weight, when trying to land in the normal case and then for the short field case. They do not and can not know what those are in the middle of landing.

I'm not trying to generate a flight test graph or POH from this conversation.

I'm trying to get a feel for what people shoot for and how it works for them.

I am a work in progress. I am flying a RV-4 with CS prop so slowing down is not a problem. Normally I fly really tight pattern using no power after end of downwind. Pull power abeam of the numbers, immediately turn base.

For short field I pull power abeam numbers and wait about 10 seconds then turn base, trim for 90 mph, half flaps. Turn final get it down to 80 mph and full flaps. Get into ground effect and 70 mph then power setting to stop sink. I have been too chicken to get much below 70 mph. Pull power and three point. Flaps up on contact, stick full back and brakes when the tail is solidly on the ground. If the tail starts to come up get off the brakes.
 
Thanks for the reply. I see that at gross your clean stall is not quite 4 knots higher. Just to be contrarian, I wouldn’t say ‘no one’ thinks about landing weight and approach speeds. I do, every time. Of course, the -10 has a much larger possible variation in weight.

Since we are being picky, I didn't say "no one thinks about" I said "no one tries to assess". And by that I meant I don't think anyone is on final attempting to calculate their present gross weight and then calculate a new approach speed from that. Ok so maybe there are a few who do that but I'm speaking in generalities.

For myself I shoot for an approach speed and I do what I have to do with the throttle to get that while keeping my aimpoint on the same spot in the window. My approach speed can be modified by gusty and/or cross winds but I have an approach speed I start with.

Do you have one you start with? If so, why not give us that example?

But ok if you want to pick a gross weight for an example you'd like to post please do. Or post two examples - light and heavy, if you'd like. Tell us what speeds and alts you shoot for a light and heavy case when you roll out on final.

Maybe you have a nominal number and if you think you are heavy or light you adjust from that. Maybe you don't. But if you have that nominal number you could post the speed and alt you use for that condition when you roll out on final.

Or don't post any examples at all, if you wish.
 
I am a work in progress. I am flying a RV-4 with CS prop so slowing down is not a problem. Normally I fly really tight pattern using no power after end of downwind. Pull power abeam of the numbers, immediately turn base.

For short field I pull power abeam numbers and wait about 10 seconds then turn base, trim for 90 mph, half flaps. Turn final get it down to 80 mph and full flaps. Get into ground effect and 70 mph then power setting to stop sink. I have been too chicken to get much below 70 mph. Pull power and three point. Flaps up on contact, stick full back and brakes when the tail is solidly on the ground. If the tail starts to come up get off the brakes.

Thanks yours and RV8ch's reply is the sort of thing I'm looking for.
 
Do you have one you start with? If so, why not give us that example?
.

Since I fly a -10 I didn’t want to steal the thread, but since you asked:
If I’m close to gross I aim for 75 kias/w flaps on final. If I’m solo, no bags, that’s close to 540 lb below gross which just happens to be 20% under gross, so I’ll trim approach speed by 10%, or around 68 kias.
 
My experimentation

I change things up now and again to test options and always come back to the baseline that works for me. Abeam --> Perch 85knots (20 degree flaps), Base --> Final 75 knots (40 degree flaps), Final 70 knots (hold a few RPM till touchdown - CS prop). Here's a video I made with difference of energy between 20 and 40 flaps. https://youtu.be/F7XzC7RC7kM

As a general statement, I'd say 1200' of runway to land and stop an RV-8 that doesn't require hard breaking or STOL competition techniques. I've seldom found runways shorter than 2500' anyway so it's a non-factor for me.
 
What prop?

Don't know what prop you have but if it's fixed, your idle RPM needs to be low for shorter landings. John
 
I dont fly my RV yet but on my other airplane I vary the speed factor (1.3) depending on conditions. Really gusty I will be above 1.3. On those dead calm summer nights where holding a precise speed is dead easy I will go below 1.3 with complete confidence. Not only are you carrying less energy for stopping, but you are much closer to the slow flight speed (min power speed) and perhaps even below it, so when you cut the power the drag increases sharply there is absolutely no float. It really slows down and settles into the flare quickly. It is one of my favorite things to practise and I can get some very short distances and spot touchdowns. In my opinion the 1.3 is a good general all purpose factor that provides margin for normal conditions including gusts. On a very dead calm day you can go lower. It all depends how much you practise and what your risk tolerance is. My view has always been that if you practise hard and know your airplane well you can adjust for conditions safely vs just blindly following numbers.

Note that big airplanes now use 1.23Vsr.
 
Almost. Big airplanes also have multiple engines, so approach speed is also affected by Vmca, minimum control speed. I forget the safety factor. At lighter weights, the wing is flying long before the tail is capable of counteracting max thrust on one side only. Meaning, don't fly that slow. So approach and landing speeds will be increased to allow for the event of an engine quiting in a go-around.

On our planes (RV8), we stall at 50kts according to Van's. The difference between 1.3Vs and 1.23vs is 3.5 kts. Point being we're starting to split hairs.
 
On our planes (RV8) said:
This is the best perspective - trying to configure my AoA with stall warning horn was not worth the effort. The RV8 loses lift so quickly between 1.4Vs into stall especially with full flaps, I find it best to stay above these numbers and fly it onto the runway. The CS prop will slow me down when I chop to idle in ground effect.
 
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