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Commuting in an RV-7?

D

Deap82

I'm New Here
Hello,

I have a few questions for the Vans Air Force team. I do not have a pilots license yet and if enough people think I'm crazy, I won't pursue it. I am contemplating getting my license and buying a pre-built RV-7. I plan to make 30 round trips per year (majority April through Sept) from KCPR to 1D1. Commercial airliners are not a good option for this route as that would take 9-11 hours per leg, vs under 3 hours in an RV7. The majority of the time I would depart KCPR at 5pm on Thursday or Friday and return to KCPR on Sunday evening. 95% of my flights would be between these two airports. I would have some flexibility in departure times.

What other things should I consider for this plan? Would IFR cert be necessary?
I like the RV7 for its speed and versatility and I am prepared for the financial commitment.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thank you
 
This is very possable. IFR rating needed? I would say for sure. Your times are in the evening so you wil likely be flying at night when you land. With the lack of lights around, even on a clear day this is IFR in my book. You still may need some flexibility in your schedule even if your IFR capable.
This would be a great use for a RV.
 
Sounds like a good plan to me and a great way to get into and utilize general aviation. You should also consider an RV-9(a) for that mission. They are a bit more stable and therefor slightly better suited to a low time pilot. Perhaps a bit less expensive too. A good honest 150 KTAS and lower fuel burn.
 
I'd definitely get your instrument rating if you want to be able to more reliably make the flights. Some weather during the time of year you're talking about can be pretty rough between those airports (thunderstorms) so even with an instrument rating you'll need to be flexible. Lots of good airports along the way to drop in on if needed, but if it's a fairly reliable (and best options for safety) commute you're after, I'd say that instrument rating would make a big difference.

Great use of the RV, to be sure.
 
If you absolutely have to be at work on Monday morning, this is not a great idea. Look at the weather, right now, in eastern SD. Widespread areas of 1/2 mile visibility, ceiling 200', freezing fog. You would not be flying to work tonight.
Do you have the flexibility to sometimes rent or take a car, drive, and show up a day late?
Do you have any passion to fly? If not, this might turn into work. At the least, get an introductory flight and see if it feels right for you.
As others have said, an instrument rating will increase the safety and/or decrease the number of times you have to cancel. But make no mistake, there will be times when you should not go, even with an instrument rating.
 
Thanks for all the replies

Luckily, the majority of my job can be done on the phone/computer and if I have an absolute meeting commitment, I will plan ahead to make sure I'm there - whether it means renting a car earlier or staying in KCPR for that weekend. If my company even allows me to do this, (they might encourage me not to fly period), I know, that they know, no meeting is too important that it trumps safety. The company I work for has a small fleet of planes and that's the mantra from the company pilots all the time so I know safety is truly #1 in the companies' mind.

Flying is not much of a passion. I have no desire to do anything but fly in a level and straight line. I always wanted to fly when I was a kid but I get motion sickness 1 out of 5 times being a passenger in a king air. My true passion is to spend more time in a place where the family (wife) wants to be located.

In today's situation, with bad weather in eastern sd, I would wait till it cleared up and then head out.

I did a discovery flight in a 172 and it was ok. A little motion sick but we were maneuvering quite a bit. He let me fly almost the entire time. Sometimes I sit up front with the pilot in the King airs.

Can a guy with a demanding full-time job spend enough time and focus to be a safe IFR pilot?

I am estimating an IFR capable RV7 for my needs to be 75k to 105k, is that about right?

Dbro172, you mention maybe looking at a rv9 instead. On a 510sm trip, I am seeing that would increase the flight time by about 30 min vs. an rv7, does that sound about right?
 
"Have time to spare, go by air!"

Don't forget that you will have mechanical issues from time to time that will keep you on the ground.

For example, I recently parked a perfectly good airplane only to find out the next time I tried to fly the starter was dead. No warning, nothing.

Make sure you can either work from home or take an airliner for those times you can't fly yourself.
 
If you're considering night/evening flights around the rockies, I'd say forget about IFR in a small single. If Casper is your base and you fly away from the mountains, not so bad. I'd say yes, you can do this but. I would focus on day, VFR, and always maintain the driving option. Go for the license and listen to what experienced small plane mountain flyers say.
 
Some data from east coast commuting.

This year I have been commuting 195 nautical miles which includes a 160 nm flight. I have flown 33 weeks out of the 50 to date. I filed IFR on 15 of those. 5 flights have been at night in addition to the IFR flights. So, there were 17 weeks I did not fly. Some were because the weather was so bad I would not fly even with an IFR rating. Some were because the destination runway was shut down. Some were due to maintenance and some were due to the fact I needed to drive my truck (bigger baggage compartment).
 
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A few thoughts:
1. The -9A suggestion is a good one. It's optimized for cross country cruise, not aerobatics. The Vans 'book' on a 160HP -9A has it 5% slower than a 180HP -7A, or less than 10 minutes on your trip.
2. A pilot friend has had motion sickness issues, and he swears by the "Relief Band". (this is a wrist-watch like device which applies a tiny voltage to a nerve in the wrist). Maybe you can try this out.
3. Yes, if you end up flying mostly in good weather, you will need to devote some extra time to maintaining ifr proficiency.
4. If this is your normal commute, not paid for by your employer, then they really have no say. If this is a business trip flown for the employer, then they may decide not to allow it.
 
Deap82 said:
Hello,

I have a few questions for the Vans Air Force team. I do not have a pilots license yet and if enough people think I'm crazy, I won't pursue it. I am contemplating getting my license and buying a pre-built RV-7. I plan to make 30 round trips per year (majority April through Sept) from KCPR to 1D1. Commercial airliners are not a good option for this route as that would take 9-11 hours per leg, vs under 3 hours in an RV7. The majority of the time I would depart KCPR at 5pm on Thursday or Friday and return to KCPR on Sunday evening. 95% of my flights would be between these two airports. I would have some flexibility in departure times.

What other things should I consider for this plan? Would IFR cert be necessary?
I like the RV7 for its speed and versatility and I am prepared for the financial commitment.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thank you
Click to expand...

If you were a good friend of mine, I would do my best to talk you out of your plan. Considering your lack of flying passion, "need" to fly over inhospitable terrain at night in a single-engine experimental aircraft you didn't build, on a schedule, with limited flying experience......bad idea. A lot of experienced pilots would not take on this scenario.

I suggest you take some flying lessons in a rental aircraft to see if this aviation thing appeals to you enough to consider pursuing a path of education that rivals a college degree in dedication required. After 20+ hours of instruction you might be in a better position to evaluate your options, especially if it triggers a desire to devote a good portion of your time to becoming a proficient IFR pilot.

Best wishes regardless of what you decide, and thank you for considering an RV.
 
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CPR

Even thinking about operating on a schedule from Casper, Wy. As a new pilot is extremely difficult. I operated out of Wyoming for 10 years in all kinds of airplanes from jets to super Cubs, the weather isn't hospitable to a schedule. The wind in Casper is awful, the ice in spring and fall is unpredictable. I operated a schedule to ND from Wyomimg, it required 2 twins, fully deiced, to make that work and I only did it twice monthly.
 
I agree with Sam on this one.

If your my friend, I'd rec that you pursue your license and an IFR rating at a minimum, spend half of what it would cost to buy a quick build kit on a good general aviation, stable IFR platform and get experience flying.

If you have a passion to build, you can always do that later. The time and energy commitment needed to build is not small. If you have a busy career, you need to focus your energy on one extra thing at a time. The commitment to just obtain a license is quit large.

Don't mean to open up a can of worms, but If I were gonna depend on general aviation to commute, much at night, I'd want to have a Multi engine and be very proficient IFR.

All of this can be done, but I'd be afraid that trying to accomplish it all too quickly, will only lead to frustration.


das
 
No passion, no go

Sorry for piling on. But I'll see you and raise you two. No passion for aviation, motion sickness in a -172, and wanting to go with EXP-AB. No deal.

You have to understand that no two E-AB planes are the same. You must really be in tune with your one single airplane. Or find an A&P who is. Back to being concerned about cost. I don't hear heavy GA IMC commuting for you. Even though they're less expensive and faster than many certified planes.

Also, no idea where KCPR and 1xx airports are (read Casper above) but you really need to heed the locals' warnings. To be able to fly light GA in that part of the country and winter, you need to know a lot more than a private certificate and instrument rating provides you. Back to the minimalist, no passion for aviation.
 
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Based on the responses, would a 310/340 with deicing be recommended then? Understanding my time and cost commitment would go up exponentially.
 
Start by getting a few lessons. If at that point you are not thrilled by the experience, join a good frequent flyer program. You are way ahead of yourself thinking about commuting cross country, which is an advanced mode of flying. If you get the flying "bug", then solo, private and day VFR in a Cherokee or Cessna for a year or so, then look at other options.
 
As another perspective, do you have a passion for driving? No? Neither do most people, but they drive just the same. Every day even. Why? Because they want to get somewhere.

If you want to do this purely for the transportation benefit, I see nothing wrong with the plan. It will take more time and commitment than you are likely thinking, but if you travel like you are planning, that is 150-200 hours/year, which will make you a pretty proficient pilot pretty fast.

Also, although it takes significant commitment and effort, it is nothing like getting a college degree, IMHO.

Tim
 
Deap82 said:
Based on the responses, would a 310/340 with deicing be recommended then? Understanding my time and cost commitment would go up exponentially.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing - weather is a big killer of people who "have to be there" (like somone commuting), and weather in that area (as has been mentioned) can be particularly nasty when it gets nasty. Successful weather flying is not about training as much as it is about experience and experince takes time to aquire - time measured in years. Knowing when to go, and when not to go is something you learn by scaring yourself once in awhile. A very well known rocket test pilot - Scott Crossfiled - had surprisingly few total flight hours, most of it in the high deserts where weather is good. Got killed flying into a thunderstorm.

There really is no such thing as an "all weather airplane" - and the ones that are close that are priced in the millions. You can't beat ice or thunderstorms in a light single - or twin, for that matter. You can only avoid the worst stuff.

So as much as I like to encourage folks to get into flying, I have to join the reluctant chorus of discouragemnt in your particular case. For the price of a 310/340, you can probably charter when you want.
 
310/340? A 310 isn't much better than a single and could be worse. A 340 is actually marginal for night IFR. minimum altitudes around here are in the fourteens and that puts you smack in the ice. One dark night waiting for an approach at a no tower field while collecting icicles will rapidly shift your attitude. Plus, you could darn near charter one of the local PC12's for what it'll cost to own a decent twin and you won't die.
 
Going east out of Casper to 1D1 shows to skirt the southern end of the black hills, Custer area. I was assuming a cruise at 8-9k ft.
 
Deap82 said:
Going east out of Casper to 1D1 shows to skirt the southern end of the black hills, Custer area. I was assuming a cruise at 8-9k ft.
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What is being inferred by those of us discouraging your proposed path to aviation, but no specifically stated...until now.....is that you presently are at the point of "not knowing what you don't know". This is not a reflection on your intelligence or station in life, but lack of background in a specific discipline.

A non-pilot, or even a low-time pilot, cannot fully appreciate the risks involved in the type of flying you are considering. Several very experienced, and in some cases professional pilots, have discouraged you from considering these flights without a ton of experience. But because you have no aviation background, you don't understand why these risks are so severe. You can't.....because you haven't been panicked by coming face to face with these conditions or attended funerals of friends who didn't pass the ultimate test.

There, I don't know how else to put it, and I hope that didn't come across as too harsh.

But if you wish to pursue aviation, and we hope you do, please take the conventional path of crawling, then walking, then jogging, ( a lot of jogging...) before running headlong into challenging flight conditions. Otherwise, we fear the possibility of infant mortality.
 
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Sam, I appreciate all the responses. Your response came across thoughtful and not harsh. When I mentioned single engine IFR to a local experienced pilot, he literally quit talking to me and walked away - made me feel real great that the guy wouldn't even talk to me. I wanted to pose the question on here to try and get some good advice and avoid the smart *** responses that I have received in person.
Commuting was probably not a good word to use in my initial post. Commuting probably means to a lot of folks that I expect a schedule. For the most part, I am flexible. If it looks bad, I'll leave earlier or wait 48 hours. What I don't understand is what typical weather delays look like. I will wait for favorable conditions but I am not familiar with the length of typical weather delays.

You're right, I don't know what I don't know. I am just trying to get as much information I can before I go down this path.
 
Learn about weather

May I suggest that you start learning about the weather along your proposed route? There are resources out there to teach you the weather from an aviation perspective. Look at the weather every day or every other day. When you get a good handle what conditions will be on both ends and enroute pretend that you are planning a trip on Sunday. Start a few days out and monitor. Right before your planned departure time check it and make a go no go decision. Check and see if the conditions were as you expected and if you would have been safe. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Longer distances have a greater chance of weather screwing up your trip. In the Illinois flat lands flying out for a 30 minute Saturday morning breakfast flight and back is not a whole lot more than checking the weather channel the night before and looking out the window in the morning (saying tongue in cheek). Flying 3 or 4 hours from my home base requires a little more discerning look at the weather.

Jeff
 
So I re looked at your original post and realize I thought you said quick build RV 7, but now realize you said a pre built one, this does change my thoughts a little, but still think getting on the path of becoming a pilot is the paramount importance.

What you are hearing from all of us is years of "never again" experiences, that we are grateful to have survived.
The reality is flying has a lot of risk. A license gives us the chance to kill ourselves, but if by the grace of God we don't screw up to much, we become much better and safer pilots.
You just have to be pilot in command, solely responsible for making life and death decisions, to fly or not fly, get out of the situation you created, deal with the mechanical failure, etc. for many hours to really "know what you don't know"

A lot of your mission can be done at min risk (choosing the time of year to fly; keeping it daytime, or really good night weather; avoiding serious weather and holding your IFR to help you survive getting into something you didn't intend, instead of going thru stuff you should't) and afford you the opportunity to build lots of experience, allowing you to slowly expand that risk envelope as you build the hours, you just need to not cut corners along the way.

I'd say most of us truly love aviation, wouldn't trade it for the world, and hope you too can join our brotherhood of pilots. We just want to encourage you to take a safe path to that end..
 
Deap82 said:
What I don't understand is what typical weather delays look like. I will wait for favorable conditions but I am not familiar with the length of typical weather delays. .
Click to expand...

Here is an example: Almost a year ago, when I moved from San Diego to Fargo, I flew my RV-9A. The last leg of my trip was from Hays, KS to Moorhead, MN; I arrived just after sundown. I had good weather for my trip but it was snowing the morning after I arrived. From that point, I recall it was almost two months before a could enjoy a VFR flight on a weekend. Not to say there wasn't good flying weather on a few weekdays, but i was at work those days....
 
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