What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Don't do it. Just, don't. Please.

ChiefPilot

Well Known Member
Reading another trip write up on here reminded me of something I saw last month on an overnight trip from St. Paul MN to Kitty Hawk NC.

I was happily cruising along at 10,000 ft over Virginia on an IFR plan, in IMC, when ATC called traffic at my 2:00 and 3 miles, VFR. Odd, since the ceilings in the area were only 1500' or so. Anyway, I told ATC I was IMC and they acknowledged. A little later they called same traffic now about 3:00 and 1 mile, indicating 9700'. I was still IMC.

A few moments later yet, they called traffic no factor. I asked specifically if the traffic was VFR, and ATC said yes - it was squawking 1200 and they weren't talking to them. About that time I broke out "between" clouds and saw a white RV-10 off to the left a ways. There was no way they had legal VFR cloud clearance.

So here's a plea to those who might think about doing such a thing: Please don't. If you don't have an IFR ticket and aren't on an IFR plan, it's not just you whom you endanger.
 
Last edited:
VFR flight in IMC conditions. Seen that in NTSB accident reports.
 
VFR in IMC

This has happened to me no less than three times in the past three years.

1) Three years ago I flew IFR through a lot of IMC to Chattanooga and an RV-7 landed right behind me. Got to talking to the pilot, and asked him where he came from. His route was almost the same as mine. I asked "Were you IFR?" and he says "No." There was no way for him to make that trip without being in the clouds.

2) Two years ago enroute in IMC over Illinois, ATC calls traffic five miles and 1,000 below flying in a big circle. I say I'm in IMC and so must the other airplane be. ATC says he is squawking 1200 and not IFR.

3) Two weeks ago over Missouri I was in IMC and ATC called VFR traffic four miles and 1,000 below. I say "I'm in IMC and so must he be, too." I was at the freezing level, watching for ice and thinking about how I might need to descend. That other traffic would have been in the way and prevented me from descending had I needed to at that point.

Once folks have ADS-B installed I hope they identify these people and cite them.

LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza 870 hours.
 
Had an experience recently, I was not the pilot in this case but very similar to what was mentioned here.

Made me come to a conclusion getting my IFR ticket isn't an if but a when, no question about it now.

1 wrong move can be your last move, I agree not worth it.
 
I was cruising across north Georgia one day VFR at about 6500. There was a very solid layer under me. I was using flight following as I normally do on XC trips. The controller told me to say flight conditions. I told her 1500-2000 on top. I think she was checking to see if I was IMC.

Not that it's safe anywhere but north Atlanta is a horrible place to go IMC if you aren't talking to someone. I don't even like going across CAVU without at least listening to ATC.
 
To put an exclamation point on this post, Google "VFR into IMC life expectancy" and you will find the experts peg it at less than three (3) minutes.
 
To put an exclamation point on this post, Google "VFR into IMC life expectancy" and you will find the experts peg it at less than three (3) minutes.

True, but the pilots described in this post sound like instrument rated pilots who are either too lazy or too stupid to file.
 
Three minutes

To put an exclamation point on this post, Google "VFR into IMC life expectancy" and you will find the experts peg it at less than three (3) minutes.
In 1953 the late Peter Gluckman departed from San Francisco in a 90 hp Luscombe 8F. He made a round trip to Germany via Goose Bay, Greenland and Iceland.
He flew the Berlin corridor, likely the first light aircraft to do that after WWII. He also at that time was almost certainly the smallest and lowest horsepower aircraft to cross the North Atlantic.
Perhaps most interesting is that Mr. Gluckman did not have an instrument rating and in his own words had a "few instrument lessons". He had never done an instrument approach, his first was at Reykavik Iceland. I have seen pictures of the instrument panel in the Luscombe and there is no attitude gyro to be seen.
A couple years later he flew the Atlantic again in a Cessna 190, this time with a brand new instrument rating.
Many years later Gluckman was attempting to break a world nonstop distance record in a Bonanza. He took off from Tokyo, obscenely overloaded and disappeared over the Pacific.
 
True, but the pilots described in this post sound like instrument rated pilots who are either too lazy or too stupid to file.

I thought of that and from I could tell from the pages I found that there is little difference as to the outcome. Apparently it has to do with preparation and having the right charts with you.

With today's fully integrated EFIS systems that include synthetic vision and autopilots, it is much easier for VFR rated pilots to fly long distances in IMC with the hope of popping out in the clear.

(Heck, I'm VFR only, no desire to go IFR, and on my last BFR we did all hood work at my request. My CFI made my DH 150' AGL and not once was he able to stump me and that was hand flying the RV.)
 
Ah yes, I remember several traffic calls as a student and I were inbound on a GPS approach between the Intermediate Fix and the Final Approach Fix.

Center-Traffic 2 O'clock 5 miles westbound same altitude
Me-N123 IMC.
Second center call-Previously issued traffic now 1 O'clock 3 miles westbound same alltitude
Me-N123 IMC
Third center call-Traffic 12:30-1 O'clock 1 mile westbound same altitude
Me-Roger N123 descending.

We descended below the MIA on the approach just in time to catch a glimpse of a C206 on floats (in the middle of Kansas no less) and the single PIC wearing a ball cap between the ragged broken /overcast layers.
 
I call them "temporary pilots". Fate often catches up to them eventually.

Although I'm a fully instrument rated ex-military and current ATP, my experimental is VFR only despite having a backup ADI. So somewhat unsurprisingly, I always maintain VFR and if I can't go VFR I maintain a spot on the bar stool in front of the big screen TV.
 
Last edited:
I might expose my na?vet? here but so be it.

I always assumed VMC was for all pilots and IMC is reserved for instrument rated pilots ON INSTRUMENT FLIGHT PLANS. I never once imagined being in IMC and finding someone flying VFR! Sure, I knew VFR pilots would occasionally make the mistake of flying into IMC, but I figured that was rare enough that it wouldn't affect me or my particular flight. I also knew that the VFR pilots life was measured in seconds before spatial disorientation set it and killed them so again, I wasn't worried. The stories in this thread are opening my eyes to something I never considered: competent, but lazy, instrument rated pilots cruising happily along in IMC...not fearing disorientation...and not on a flight plan. As previously mentioned, I can see the ability for the pilots to do it given the sophistication of the avionics today...but really?

I'm disappointed in my fellow man. :(
 
The vaunted video of 180 seconds to death has been commented that it portrayed a scenario before there was any instrument training at all. It may give the false impression that a person without an IFR ticket is doomed to die. Yet, in basic flight training all students get at least 3 hours of hood time. They are required to have hood time before they solo cross country. They are taught to do a 180, hopefully before entering IMC, but in an emergence even after they enter IMC. I trained my basic students to do an instrument descent as if they were caught above a layer. So, it seems to be a little curious to say a VFR pilot, even one with no IFR ticket, flying into IMC must die.
I, too, have had the experience of flying in solid and having ATC call out a VFR target. It is indeed unsettling.
ADSB may preclude some of this, if the aircraft has it on! I guess I'd rather be in the soup with a VFR pilot who is hopefully listening to ATC and me hearing his call out than I would like to be in the soup with a VFR pilot who was listening to ATC but turned off his transponder. I know you have all heard of pilots "recycling" their transponder when they get the "Citation 12345 say altitude" and note they are 400 or 500 off. One hand pushing the stick forward and one hand turning the xponder off.
There is also the local pilot who knows (he hopes!) the area (towers, etc) and decides to fly in the soup just below MEA, hoping no one else is there. One anecdotal comment I've heard is the VFR guy who flies on top until his GPS shows him over a local lake, where he circles down assuming there are no towers and no other traffic.
 
Subtweet.

I'm the person who did this and as I mentioned in the write-up that Brad's referring to, it was inexplicably stupid. So, yeah.

The most frightening aspect of this is that just four days earlier, I was sitting in the Air Safety Foundation live seminar on weather going over EXACTLY these things.

And yet, I did it anyway.

It was frightening -- not because I got in trouble on top -- but because I KNEW better. I'd just been to the seminar, I knew a bout get-home-itis, overly focusing on a mission to the exclusion of options, AND I'm a conservative pilot.

And yet I did it anyway, revealing the powerful pull against logic that these things present to otherwise intelligent people.

I took some comfort in the fact that hours later, armed with this new frightening realization that intelligence and logic can be whisked away, I got a hotel room, but still, it was about as stupid a thing as could be done.

And did I mention a Beech Jet was on the instrument approach for KPSF at the time? No. Oh.

I would add this caution: Those people who are assuming you can't be THAT guy that Brad is referring to because you're not THAT type of pilot: you're wrong. Accept that fact.

My apologies to the aviation community. It won't happen again.
 
Subtweet.

I'm the person who did this and as I mentioned in the write-up that Brad's referring to, it was inexplicably stupid. So, yeah.

That was you in the RV-10? Take me for a ride in it, please!

Seriously, I think the situations were a little different, although either one could have ended badly. A pilot brazenly going X/C though clouds while VFR in a relatively congested corridor of airspace (while on top at one point I saw and counted 15 other aircraft!) is a different thing than someone being trapped on top and descending through a deck.

Yeah, both are VFR into IMC, and yeah, both can end badly - but unless you have a white RV-10 that's been down the east coast, I doubt it was you :)
 
That was you in the RV-10? Take me for a ride in it, please!

Seriously, I think the situations were a little different, although either one could have ended badly. A pilot brazenly going X/C though clouds while VFR in a relatively congested corridor of airspace (while on top at one point I saw and counted 15 other aircraft!) is a different thing than someone being trapped on top and descending through a deck.

Yeah, both are VFR into IMC, and yeah, both can end badly - but unless you have a white RV-10 that's been down the east coast, I doubt it was you :)

No I think you were reminded of it while reading my trip write up.
 
The vaunted video of 180 seconds to death has been commented that it portrayed a scenario before there was any instrument training at all. It may give the false impression that a person without an IFR ticket is doomed to die. Yet, in basic flight training all students get at least 3 hours of hood time. They are required to have hood time before they solo cross country. They are taught to do a 180, hopefully before entering IMC, but in an emergence even after they enter IMC. I trained my basic students to do an instrument descent as if they were caught above a layer. So, it seems to be a little curious to say a VFR pilot, even one with no IFR ticket, flying into IMC must die.

I got my instrument rating after accumulating roughly 400 hours of flight time over 8 years after earning my PPL. I purposely started my training in the Northern CA winter to increase my odds of learning in actual conditions.

The first time I entered the soup was on my first IR training flight, so I had no instrument instruction beyond what I learned in my PPL. I was hand-flying the plane and became disoriented almost immediately. Entered the graveyard spiral within 30 seconds. My instructor had to take the controls. He did all this to prove an obvious point.

Based on my experience, I think an untrained pilot is likely to meet with serious grief in IMC unless they're on autopilot.
 
Scary

right after I got my instrument rating, I was on an IFR flight plan coming out of Oakland Pontiac airport in MI climbing to cruise altitude. The visibility was crumby and I was in an out of clouds. All of a sudden an aerostar flashes under me from right to left. It happened so fast and was so close, I almost wondered if I imagined it. I asked approach if anyone was talking to an aerostar at my position and there was silence, then uh no. I think the xponder must have been off.

Sure felt betrayed by the system I had worked so hard to become a member of.
 
I got my instrument rating after accumulating roughly 400 hours of flight time over 8 years after earning my PPL. I purposely started my training in the Northern CA winter to increase my odds of learning in actual conditions.

The first time I entered the soup was on my first IR training flight, so I had no instrument instruction beyond what I learned in my PPL. I was hand-flying the plane and became disoriented almost immediately. Entered the graveyard spiral within 30 seconds. My instructor had to take the controls. He did all this to prove an obvious point.

Based on my experience, I think an untrained pilot is likely

It all depends on the individual. The late great Bob Buck taught himself instrument flying in his Pitcairn, with just a turn and bank, by climbing up in the clouds and flying a cross country to where he knew there was good weather. Lindbergh was probably a similar scenario. I don't believe the instrument rating existed in the Lindbergh era. I learned to fly instruments in a Luscombe with just a turn and bank, under the hood with a safety pilot. never a problem, never came close to losing control.
 
My personal experiences:
1. IFR in IMC, but briefly between layers, when I see a V tail, opposite direction, about 500' below me. He quickly disappeared back into the clouds. I queried ATC, they said they didn't see him. I presume he had his transponder off.
2. ILS approach in IMC, ATC has me abort the approach with a climbing turn, due to unknown traffic but fortunately he had mode C. Turned out he was flying outbound on the localizer, 100' or less below the cloud base (if his mode C was correct).
The one that really went wrong:
3. Pilot liked to "play around", flying "in and out" of the clouds. How do we know? Because he actually wrote that in his logbook! Logbook was recovered after an IMC collision with an Air Force tanker, killing all on both aircraft.
======
I have a friend who used to teach at one of the weekend instrument written prep classes. He told me that about every other class one of the pilots would confess that they had been flying ifr, trusting their lives to the autopilot; they had gotten nervous and that's why they decided it was time to get the rating.
 
3. Pilot liked to "play around", flying "in and out" of the clouds. How do we know? Because he actually wrote that in his logbook! Logbook was recovered after an IMC collision with an Air Force tanker, killing all on both aircraft.

:eek:

Oh. My. Word.

So there's this: NTSB Link
 
Last edited:
IFR

I have had numerous near misses when I and the other aircraft were on a proper IFR clearance.
Burt Rutan used to say that by using a random altitude selection and GPS direct you could fly VFR in the clouds and your chances of a midair would be exactly the same as IFR "in the system". Don't ask me how he came up with that.
 
I have had numerous near misses when I and the other aircraft were on a proper IFR clearance.
Burt Rutan used to say that by using a random altitude selection and GPS direct you could fly VFR in the clouds and your chances of a midair would be exactly the same as IFR "in the system". Don't ask me how he came up with that.

It's a good thing that the airplane/sky volume ratio is roughly 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
 
I have had numerous near misses when I and the other aircraft were on a proper IFR clearance.
Burt Rutan used to say that by using a random altitude selection and GPS direct you could fly VFR in the clouds and your chances of a midair would be exactly the same as IFR "in the system". Don't ask me how he came up with that.
I'm sure he's assuming you keep your altimeter to the current baro setting, or else maybe the "random" altitude doesn't get so random. :)
 
Yes, please just don't do it.

I hate to admit it but like some I too had one such incident many years ago. As a VFR pilot I took a friend of mine and dropped him off at an airport 30 minutes away from our home base. The weather was perfect... and I mean perfect with not a cloud to be seen until we arrived at our destination where we noticed a layer of haze moving in from a nearby lake. After landing my friend offered to put some fuel in the plane and insisted on it. After refueling I noticed that the airport was no longer in clear conditions but didn't even cross my mind how low or thick the haze could be. I took off thinking that I could just stay under it until I see the clear sky again on my way back to my home base. . . after all, only 15 minutes had passed. Within seconds after take-off and after bringing up my landing gears (flying a 310) I went in IMC. After climbing for 30 seconds panic started to set in as I was starting to get disoriented. It took every bit of my concentration to stay focused and fly the plane straight and level. Although I came out of the clouds within a minute or so, it was the longest couple of minutes of my life. That was 8 years ago and I promised myself that I would never put myself in that situation again and I haven't. My point is, Bob is right... sometimes smart people do some really stupid things. I was fortunate to have escaped with no harm and learned an extremely valuable lesson. I just hope that other VFR pilots read these stories and learn from other people's mistakes.
Thank you for posting such an important subject and hopefully helping fellow pilots realize their wrong doing. I'm sure this will save someone's life in the future.
 
It took every bit of my concentration to stay focused and fly the plane straight and level.

There are a few posts in this thread that allude to the few hours of PPL hood time as sufficient prep for an IMC encounter. Please do not be fooled into thinking hood and IMC are the same. I've never flown a hood, visor, foggles, etc that didn't allow a fairly easy method for cheating. It's amazing what the slightest peak outside will do to calm a raging proprioceptive/vestibular system.

Being IMC without that possibility is absolutely a different ballgame. I still remember my first few times like it was yesterday - white knuckles, sweating, dry mouth, and all.
 
Burt Rutan used to say that by using a random altitude selection and GPS direct you could fly VFR in the clouds and your chances of a midair would be exactly the same as IFR "in the system".
Burt Rutan is a wonderful aircraft designer and engineer but has some pretty oddball views on other things, where his opinions are not always a helpful or constructive contribution.
 
How many of you had 10 hours simulated instrument with your ppl? My dad said it wasn't nearly that many hours many years ago when he got his ppl. It's not the same as actual of course but I felt pretty good about my under the hood time for a private and think it's enough to get you out of trouble if you were to really "accidentally" get into imc which I doubt there are that many accidental situations
 
Many, many good comments here, and Bob's really resonate with me. Thanks for providing that perspective. We're all oh-so-smart until we prove to ourselves just how dumb we really are.

In Canada it wasn't until the 80's or 90's that a student pilot was required to have 5 hours instrument time before getting a PPL. Unfortunately for me, I was licensed before this new requirement came into effect so flew for 30+ years with zero credited instrument time.

Also, unlike our friends to the south, we require a separate rating to fly VFR at night. This rating requires 10 hours of instrument time. While many decry the elevated risk associated with night flight, getting that rating doubles the amount of instrument time a PPL holder has in his logbook. If for no other reason than this, the night rating is very worthwhile to have on your ticket.

While I enjoy night flying, one of my greatest fears is of flying at night over featureless terrain (there's lots of that around here) and ending up in IMC after flying into a descending cloud base. For that reason, even when I have good visibility while flying at night, I maintain a full instrument scan so there would be very little to no transition time to "get on the gauges" should I enter cloud. I can't imagine the terror that must ensue when one enters cloud without any knowledge or training in instrument flight.
 
Please do not be fooled into thinking hood and IMC are the same.

I still remember my first few times like it was yesterday - white knuckles, sweating, dry mouth, and all.

+10 ! I still get those anxiety spells although they are less strong. The primary trigger is turbulence that is enough to upset the craft while in IMC.

There was also a comment earlier in this thread about documentation preparedness being a cause of IMC accidents. I very much agree with that. I have had two occasions where the electronics either did not work (EFB failure because of operator error) or did not agree with the plate (out of date database on 430W). Both events were very disconcerting and required concentration to overcome. I have changed what I do because of both events.
 
How many of you had 10 hours simulated instrument with your ppl? My dad said it wasn't nearly that many hours many years ago when he got his ppl. It's not the same as actual of course but I felt pretty good about my under the hood time for a private and think it's enough to get you out of trouble if you were to really "accidentally" get into imc which I doubt there are that many accidental situations

I thought so too, until I got into actual IMC the first time during my instrument training. I don't think that any more.
 
How many of you had 10 hours simulated instrument with your ppl? My dad said it wasn't nearly that many hours many years ago when he got his ppl. It's not the same as actual of course but I felt pretty good about my under the hood time for a private and think it's enough to get you out of trouble if you were to really "accidentally" get into imc which I doubt there are that many accidental situations

I took a friend flying and she got hooked. On the way to earning her PPL it was the day for solo. Overcast 2000 ft, 1800 ft pattern. The instructor released her to fly to the practice area. BAM, into IMC. She looked at the instruments did a 180 and made her way back to the airport, Willow Run, outside Detroit.

I nearly had a heart attack when she told me what happened. She is a PhD engineer and knew the G1000 inside and out. It saved her life.

Judgement (or lack thereof) not only applies to the low hour pilots. At least the instructor required a high level of competency for the solo flight. For her it was accidental, for the CFI it was foreseeable.
 
Burt Rutan is a wonderful aircraft designer and engineer but has some pretty oddball views on other things, where his opinions are not always a helpful or constructive contribution.
No idea if the condition is true or was said by Rutan, but he's an engineer. Engineer's work with statistics and facts. Feelings, emotion and opinion typically don't play a role. Further, I agree with the thought about flying at odd/non-standard altitudes (when not assigned). Have had a couple of unintended fly-bys at commonly flown altitudes. Last, statistically, you're much worse off from the mid-air risk perspective on clear, VMC days. Reconcile that with these concerns of flying in IMC.
 
Last edited:
Burt Rutan is a wonderful aircraft designer and engineer but has some pretty oddball views on other things, where his opinions are not always a helpful or constructive contribution.

I actually thinks it's a very worthwhile point. While I don't think any of us advocate flying IMC out of the system, the fact is that system was designed long before GPS. The rules, by definition, keep more airplanes in closer quarters such as on airways and in traffic patterns, and thus more opportunity for collision. In fact, GPS is so accurate now that I hear some airlines have pilots fly a small amount off the centerline of their routes to lessen collision risks. In the old days before such precision, chances of two airplanes being on exactly the same centerline of a route were much smaller.

The system does need to change, eventually. We have navigation units that can help ensure obstacle clearance, lessening the need for MEA's and plotted airways. Anything we can do to spread out traffic is a good thing, IMO.

Chris
 
Last edited:
VFR but really IFR

I got my ticket back in the early 90's in southern Ca. I used to do a lot of night flying. I sold a Grumman Traveler to a guy in Florida and he asked me if I could ferry it to him at his cost. Well we got stuck in mid Texas for 3 days. Low ceilings in the mornings Thunderstorms in the afternoons. If I just had an IFR ticket, I could have gone no problem. On the 4th day in Texas we were able to go but had to stop in the panhandle of Florida because of a big thunderstorm. When I looked at the weather forecast for the next day, It didn't look good. Gettheritis set in. I figured I would just fly at night along the panhandle and the west coast of Florida then just cross over to Orlando. I would get in around midnight. I should have no problem just following the coast right? The conditions were "VFR" 4000' ceiling but 5 miles viz in haze. Was not used to this being from California. So I start of down the coast. Within a 1/2 an hour I have no and I mean no horizon. No lights on the ground or over the water and no light from the moon. I should have just turned back but i didn't. I started to get disorientated so I turned up my instrument lights so I would be forced to not look outside.
I had no auto pilot.
I could not see the coast so I put in a direct course to my destination which now took me directly over the Gulf about 60 miles out into the water with no life preservers (another stupid move). I was using flight following and the controller asked me where I was going. He said "you know you are flying over the gulf of Mexico?" I said " yes I know. I lost my bearings and I am flying direct to Orlando" He said " Do you have an Instrument Rating?" I said "no" He said "We will keep an eye out for you" In other words, I guess we will know where to look for the wreckage. I flew that night for about one hour totally on Instruments. I only had the few hours of training that I received for my PPL.

Living here on the east coast now, I don't fly at night and I agree with Canada and other countries that require an IFR ticket to fly at night. Hazy moonless night over unlit terrain, guess what, equals IFR
 
I thought so too, until I got into actual IMC the first time during my instrument training. I don't think that any more.

In my recent foray, I kept an (intentional) left hand descending turn (there are mountains around PSF). I got right on the instruments of course to stay under control. I'm usually pretty good at it.

But I still could NOT get ahead of the fact the plane was alternating between a very fast and very slow airspeed and doing so very quickly. I knew EXACTLY what the plane was doing and I STILL couldn't get ahead of it.

The "I can handle it so it wouldn't be a big deal" attitude could've killed me in another minute or two because eventually the brain gets consumed with "WTF"?
 
A jet flying at 250 KIAS (routine below 10,000') in scattered cloud conditions will cover about 400 ft/sec. If you are flying VFR at the legal cloud separation (2000') you will have just under 5 seconds (depending on speed and direction of both aircraft) to spot each other when the jet emerges from the clouds to see and avoid. If you are "playing" with the clouds (flying close or with a wingtip in cloud) you will have almost no time. Your cruise altitude will not matter because the jet will most likely be climbing or descending when below 10K.
 
180

The safest escape maneuver for an inadvertent IMC encounter is a LEVEL 180 turn. Give it two minutes after completing the 180 and then descend at a slow rate of descent at reduced airspeed. This is based on knowing exactly where you are in relation to the ground/obstructions.
For a non instrument rated pilot trying to turn and descend at the same time is just asking for trouble.
 
I have a good idea. The efis manufacturers should make a feature you can enable to have the Servos "right" the aircraft should you exceed xx bank angle or pitch in night flight. A lot of people have become confused about attitude indications at night, maybe that would save a few lives ?
 
The efis manufacturers should make a feature you can enable to have the Servos "right" the aircraft should you exceed xx bank angle or pitch in night flight.

Already done. Skyview autopilot has a "Level" button that immediately returns the aircraft to straight and level flight. They also have a 180 turn button.
 
I have a good idea. The efis manufacturers should make a feature you can enable to have the Servos "right" the aircraft should you exceed xx bank angle or pitch in night flight. A lot of people have become confused about attitude indications at night, maybe that would save a few lives ?

It might, or it just might delay the inevitable. Relying on the magic works great ... until the magic stops working. What happens then?

Anyway, the plea was to non-IFR folks to not go cloud busting because it's dangerous to not only themselves but also to those who are there legitimately. I agree with the previous comment - money spent on such an EFIS would be better spent on training about how to avoid the need for such a feature to begin with.
 
Totally agree.

This particular situation, like so many in flying, doesn't really show a need for education about not getting into the situation per se. Everyone knows you shouldn't get into this situation.

This is a psychological issue that pilots have that makes some persist with actions they already KNOW are ones they shouldn't undertake.

The seminar I was at just a few days before I flew East -- the AOPA ASF seminar (which was very good, btw, go see it when it comes to your town) -- reinforced those things I already knew and that was valuable to an extent.

There was repetition about declaring an emergency and confessing and yada yada yada... we've all heard it a million times.

So why didn't I? Good question. Part of is that none of the seminar dealt with the consequences of doing so and while I know, logically, that it's better to live to even get to that point after you're on the ground, it's still a consideration when you're about to make the decision and it's one of the reasons why someone chooses choice A rather than Choice B.

I also had the option of calling FlightWatch and getting their assessment of the weather. That's REALLY easy. But I forgot the frequency. How is THAT even possible? It's 122.0 for crying it out loud. Well, WHICH FlightWatch? Bridgeport? Albany? Who? I didn't have that data handy. I know the answer to all of these questions now. I made a bad choice because at the time it seemed like the ONLY choice. That's insane! I wasn't even going to KPSF. I was on top, had another 5 hours of fuel, it was sunny up there. How is it I fixated on needing to be at THAT airport to sort the weather out? Especially when I'd already gotten a clear picture of what the systems were doing by spending three or four hours going over them in my pre-flight? Why did I suddenly fixate on that as a mission to the exclusion of everything else? Why is it I started to doubt the data I had?

And, finally, it never OCCURRED to me that there actually MIGHT be someone making an ILS approach to KPSF at roughly the same time I was spiraling down. Never occurred to me! And, as it turned out, there was. He was 10 miles out.

This is the part where I mention how much I learned for future use BEYOND the admonition to myself never to do it again. How do I know I'll never do it again? I promised myself never to do it once?

There's just something -- and I don't know what it is -- that is far, far more powerful than what your otherwise rational brain would normally tell you and I think the first step is to help aviators understand that that beast is on top of your shoulders and it takes a h*** of a lot of conscious effort to ignore it. We try to tell ourselves it isn't really there by noting that other pilots who've made similar mistakes were simply lazy or stupid or whatever. They're not really us. We're not like THAT.

My testimony is that you can become THAT kind of pilot in a matter of seconds, and I'm still trying to figure out why an otherwise intelligent and capable pilot known for being careful went for that option. It's much more than just not knowing what the other options were; it's something deeper than that. I just haven't figured out what. Yet.

As for making more gizmos to get out of this situation, I would offer this word of caution.

My FIRST thought after dropping out of the clouds was this one: "I've got to get me a Skyview." Granted, I only had it for a few seconds before "You idiot, don't ever do that again," pushed it aside. But the fact that was my first thought kind of scared me a bit.
 
Last edited:
VFR in IMC

I just want to make it clear that I am not complaining about people who make an honest mistake and end up in IMC while VFR. Everyone makes mistakes, and hopefully we learn from them and do not repeat them. I also salute anyone, like Bob, who fesses up so that others may learn and discuss how to be better. My issue is only with people who intentionally fly in IMC outside the system. That is very wrong. My wife is learning to fly and she was with me during two of the incidents. It is naturally discouraging and alarming to her that there are people out there violating the rules and putting us in danger. It gives us pilots a black eye. We have enough trouble safeguarding the reputation of general aviation as it is.

Rant over.

LeRoy Johnston RV-6a Esperanza 870 hours.
 
My panel will have way more capacity than I do. Having a "screw up button" or something that automatically saves me makes it easy to get in the thought pattern some Cirrus pilots have. I have an ace in the hole that will save me. It is sort of like having 4 wheel drive - it only gets you stuck farther away from the road.

In the two and half years I have been reading this forum and building my plane, there have been too many pilots with thousands of hours and experience I will never have that are gone. If I didn't have the, "it won't happen to me" thoughts, I would never get in any plane.

Bob, I thank you for your thoughts and your effort to figure out what was going on in your decision making. Maybe Im nuts, but I believe if is possible to survive almost any crash - IF you crash under control. In the clouds, you lose that chance. When you try to make the impossible turn, you lose your chance. I hope your experience pops into all of our heads when we are making life and death experiences. Thanks.
 
No idea if the condition is true or was said by Rutan, but he's an engineer. Engineer's work with statistics and facts. Feelings, emotion and opinion typically don't play a role.
Just because he works with statistics and facts doesn't make his interpretation of those statistics and facts the correct one or even a sensible one. Feelings/emotions don't skew the facts themselves, but they certainly skew the interpretation of them. That's human nature, and I've seen it a lot in discussions with engineers as well as other people!
 
There are a few posts in this thread that allude to the few hours of PPL hood time as sufficient prep for an IMC encounter. Please do not be fooled into thinking hood and IMC are the same. I've never flown a hood, visor, foggles, etc that didn't allow a fairly easy method for cheating. It's amazing what the slightest peak outside will do to calm a raging proprioceptive/vestibular system.

Being IMC without that possibility is absolutely a different ballgame. I still remember my first few times like it was yesterday - white knuckles, sweating, dry mouth, and all.


Jon, you are absolutely correct. I remember it like it was yesterday. It's not a pleasant thing to admit that you've done something stupid but if just one person can learn from that mistake it will be well worth .
 
I've never flown a hood, visor, foggles, etc that didn't allow a fairly easy method for cheating. It's amazing what the slightest peak outside will do to calm a raging proprioceptive/vestibular system.

Whenever I get "the leans" in IMC, I just level the wings, and look outside at the wing and tell myself "that is the horizon". The apparent horizon is wherever I put it.


jrs14855 said:
Burt Rutan used to say that by using a random altitude selection and GPS direct you could fly VFR in the clouds and your chances of a midair would be exactly the same as IFR "in the system".

You'd be surprised how far out two altimeters are in the same airplane if they have separate pitot/static systems. Could easily put you inline with your "random" altitude". I often get cleared "present position direct _____" after being vectored on departure. That sounds like a pretty random GPS track to me.

YellowJacket RV9 said:
The rules, by definition, keep more airplanes in closer quarters such as on airways and in traffic patterns, and thus more opportunity for collision.

Every so often, I'll be at Flight Level 190 and ATC will tell me to look for an aircraft at FL200, opposite direction. After 30 seconds, there it is, perfectly inline with our track, not an inch different.

Unless your looking at a radar screen, you have no idea where ATC has vectored or cleared airplanes, on track/off track. Barometric errors often make altimeters 100' out at altitude. Sure there's limits at field elevation, but by 10,000', what is the error? Your altimeter is 100' high, and somebody else's is 100' low. There goes the logic behind your 8700' cruising altitude.

All this being said, one member on this board has this in his signature: "Smart people do dumb things all the time. Trust me, I've seen me do them"
 
Back
Top