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Tail Wheels are Dangerous

gmcjetpilot

Well Known Member
KIDDING :D

Seriously tail wheel planes, called "conventional gear", training and knowledge makes you a better pilot even if you have a tricycled gear plane.

I found a good video on youtube. There are 100's but these I though were informative or fun. Books I recommend
The Complete Taildragger Pilot - LeRoy Cook
Tail Tactidragger - Sparky Imeson (he had a VHS to go with it I recall)

As a CFI I break down teaching conventional gear training into two parts, ground school and practical stick and rudder.

1) Is a full understanding of the dynamics, forces, physics and fundamental techniques of landing. Strangely enough conventional or tricycle share a lot in common, like good approach, speed control and side slip for cross winds. If you are boss in a C172 with cross winds, landing in strong gusty cross winds with competent and confidence it will go a long way in a TW plane. TW planes will increase your skill as they want to WEATHER-VANE more than tricycle plane as the gear is further forward.

2) The other can only be learned in the plane. From your ground school on TW you know the CG is behind the mains and this means it wants to swap ends and vertical velocity at touch down causes the tail to go down, increasing angle of attack causing the plane to fly again. Tricycle then plane wants to self center more or less and the CG being forward of the mains makes it want to de-rotate (although you can bounce and with pilot induced oscillation (PIO) you can still get in trouble. Bottom line poor technique in a TW plane is amplified and less forgiving. The only way to learn is practice. Always be looking down the runway. Maintain directional control even the smallest deviation is correct quickly and without over control. Don't do anything until slowed to a walking speed and even then don't stop flying until it is tied down.


There are dozens of videos on youtube about taildraggers

This was shot on VHS in the 80's I guess but it is a great over view. There are many clips of planes landing. Watch them over and over. Look at the rudder. It is moving constantly, small quick inputs going back to natural, like you are dancing on rudder pedals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B78vtDKATTg&t=1065s

I love old military training videos but it has some good tips, don't let the silly presentation throw you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3hRFCP40F4

Sometimes watching good and bad landings from the ramp is informative. Starting at 3:31 it shows a Citabria and DC3 landing which are actually very good but the audio and pop up text indicates this is not proper. I would say the DC3 was a little exaggerated but that is the correct technique, holding the upwind wheel down and downwind wheel up until you run out of aileron. The ground loops look un-controllable but they are totally controllable until they are not. Once the aircraft mass (at CG) starts moving laterally from direction of travel it may reach a point that main gear drag plus centrifugal force exceed rudder control. Some "intuitive" control inputs to the untrained/unskilled/unprepared make it worse. Differential Brakes can sometimes be used to "save it" but the whole idea is not let it get to that point you need to jab the brake*. If you keep CG tracking inline with main gear in direction of travel it is fairly easy to control. Again quick accurate corrections with rudder and back to neutral. Don't get distracted until almost stopped and keep eyes down the runway for alignment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5trygRQaV0

Seth is Da man. His 10 tips are great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XQ5OVDaZ10

(* In really strong cross wind as you slow the plane may still weather vane, turn into the wind, as rudder becomes less effective and you reach max travel. The whole side of the plane and vertical stab acts as a sail. No air over rudder means no control. So dragging the downwind brake may save the day and be needed. Normally you stay off the brakes until almost stopped. When it's windy, strong cross wind, you may exceed the planes X-wind capability or your undershorts capacity. ha ha. I landed once on a wet runway in a RV-4 and was almost stopped on the runway ready to turn off, and the wind slid us sideways, not weather vane but sideways. It was raining and gusty. That was why we landed. Coming from Oshkosh going back to Seattle, a line of oh my gosh weather made us land for the night, so a storm front was approaching this airport. However down wind brakes helped, but we did get pushed sideways. If I did not use the brakes it would have been a minor ground loop at very slow speeds. However you should never be a passenger, use all the controls properly and timely fashion and make the plane do what you want. I had a passenger and bags so the extra weight helped keep it planted.)
 
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Thanks Geaorges for these well made points. All makes sense.
Not flying yet and about to do TW training.


Would a passenger and bagage in the back of a 4 or 8 increase the tendency to ground loop as more weight even further back the mains (CG further rearward) want to go forward???
 
I absolutely loved the first video when I saw it a few months back. Thanks for the second one. Hadn't found that one yet. There are some great old training videos out there. Love the movie/tell a story style of teaching.
 
The accident rate for tailwheel vs nose wheel RV's is about the same. Most nose wheel accidents relate to hard landing on nose wheel, bending it under, and blowing a brake, usually caused by too much brake for taxi, and too little inspection. When the A model blows a brake, the pilot is going for a ride, only thing he or she can do is cob the power if there is enough runway left and use rudder to steer, if the tail wheel blows a brake, there is still good tailwheel steering, and some drag from the operating brake, in concert with opposite rudder from the operating brake.

DAR Gary
 
Bill,
Double Thumbs up as he knows his stuff, utilizes it around the country weekly and plays a decent guitar with not a half bad singing voice!

I looked him up and is apparently only 1.2 RV flying units away. 218nm. I don't recall being taught these specific set of exercises in any training and surely picked up a lot of bad habits in the last 250 hrs as a result. His take on cross wind selection for right/left (landing/take-off) make perfect sense and I have been doing these for different reasons - -they just "felt" better. That makes perfect sense now. Lots more missing for sure that can make a better TW pilot.

Funny, I was reading a magazine article that stumbled into talking about landing a C180. They said it was a challenge to land w/o bouncing, etc. It perfectly describes the landing in a -7, leading to the conclusion that it is a characteristic of the TW flight experience in general. That goes unrecognized by the low time (TW) pilot. But I ramble . . . .
 
I can't count the number of tailwheel checkouts I've done over the years but certainly a ton of them.
If students learning on tricycle gear aircraft were held to the same standards as tailwheel students by their instructors then tailwheel checkouts would be a lot shorter in time.

They are not held to the same standard because most instructors learned in tricycle gear and their own standards are not that high.

Unfortunately the tricycle gear aircraft self corrects for all the little mistakes both students and instructors make in landing.

I can always tell the quality of instruction pilots have had when I'm doing tailwheel checkouts...some requiring only a few hours and others up to 15+ hours. It really shows. When I realize I'm dealing with a student that has had a very high level of training I always ask who his instructor was. It took a few years before I was teaching another of this fellows students and sure enough another fast checkout....good training is easy to detect.

Tailwheel aircraft come equipped with high standards required built right in for both students and instructors ...

Tailwheel aircraft are not all equal either with some requiring a very high level of skill.
RV's, Cubs Cessna140, 170's and Citabrias are on the super easy level with Pitts, Texans near the top and Pacers and Luscombe near the middle.
 
Thanks Geaorges for these well made points. All makes sense.
Not flying yet and about to do TW training.


Would a passenger and bagage in the back of a 4 or 8 increase the tendency to ground loop as more weight even further back the mains (CG further rearward) want to go forward???

the quick answer is yes, mostly due to the fact that the CG is shifted rearward making the aircraft less stable and making it very "touchy" on the controls.


bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
Would a passenger and bagage in the back of a 4 or 8 increase the tendency to ground loop as more weight even further back the mains (CG further rearward) want to go forward???
As said CG moves back. The big thing especially RV-4 is the elevator feel is much lighter, less elevator to flair and required input different, than solo.

I can't count the number of tailwheel checkouts I've done over the years but certainly a ton of them.
If students learning on tricycle gear aircraft were held to the same standards as tailwheel students by their instructors then tailwheel checkouts would be a lot shorter in time.

[SNIP]

Tailwheel aircraft are not all equal either with some requiring a very high level of skill.
RV's, Cubs Cessna140, 170's and Citabrias are on the super easy level with Pitts, Texans near the top and Pacers and Luscombe near the middle.
Agree 100%, concur. Spoken like a man who knows TW planes.
 
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I especially enjoyed the Pauley/Rozendaal videos. Yesterday while flying my RV-6 I tried to observe the adverse yaw. Rocking the wings I could not discern any yaw while cruising at 100 kts. Does the 6 exhibit adverse yaw?
 
I especially enjoyed the Pauley/Rozendaal videos. Yesterday while flying my RV-6 I tried to observe the adverse yaw. Rocking the wings I could not discern any yaw while cruising at 100 kts. Does the 6 exhibit adverse yaw?

I loved it when Doug said "See that over there? That's the centerline. It's where the professionals live."
 
Tailwheel aircraft are not all equal either with some requiring a very high level of skill.
RV's, Cubs Cessna140, 170's and Citabrias are on the super easy level with Pitts, Texans near the top and Pacers and Luscombe near the middle.

To be fair, Pitts' vary to a massive degree. The king of the sensitive tailwheel airplane is an S-1 with the standard bungee gear and steerable leaf spring tailwheel. Put spring or rod main gear on it and it gets "easier". Then add a locking tailwheel and you have an airplane any 172 driver would feel at home in. ;)
 
I loved it when Doug said "See that over there? That's the centerline. It's where the professionals live."
Ha! I heard the same thing when I did my DC-3 type rating ride with Doug back in July... but I'm only 5-10 feet left! And there I was trying to be all professional and whatnot. Busted!
 
RGood

This thread reminds me of my old instructor friend who was checking me out in the club sky diving Cessna 195. He was a believer in 3-point only landings on our 1900 ft dirt runway. "If you still see the runway at touchdown you missed it". (I owned a 1954 C-180 back in the late 60's.)
 
Good Reading

This thread reminds me of my old instructor friend who was checking me out in the club sky diving Cessna 195. He was a believer in 3-point only landings on our 1900 ft dirt runway. "If you still see the runway at touchdown you missed it". (I owned a 1954 C-180 back in the late 60's.)
 
I fly airbus for a living...so feet have got lazy....going to have to learn to pedal again when I get my 7 finished. flown taylorcraft, tiger moth, citabria and c-170. long time ago...nothing particularly hard there...but they did teach me to pedal...:)
 
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Many years ago when I was actively flying and very current...not long after my instrument rating, the school has a lease back 7AC Champ...so I went for a tailwheel sign off

Solidly the most fun I've had flying was in that thing.

but I never could get the hang of it. I tried a couple other times in a cessna 120 and a 140.

I think you're right about the Cessna's leading to poor instruction.... but I think it's more than that.

I don't think the tail wheels on those aircraft at least most of the time, were rigged properly. The would make a terrible racket as soon as the tail settled
but I think my primary issue was not being able to get over my fear of prop strike when raising the tail. It just felt wrong to me.
 
but I think my primary issue was not being able to get over my fear of prop strike when raising the tail. It just felt wrong to me.

I have a fix for that.. one trick is to chock the wheels, have a student in the plane and raise the tail. By having the prop at 12 and 6, you can raise the tail and let them see the sight picture where the prop would hit. Usually it’s at such a ridiculous angle that the student realizes that you don’t need to be afraid to raise the tail on takeoff.
 
I have a fix for that.. one trick is to chock the wheels, have a student in the plane and raise the tail. By having the prop at 12 and 6, you can raise the tail and let them see the sight picture where the prop would hit. Usually it’s at such a ridiculous angle that the student realizes that you don’t need to be afraid to raise the tail on takeoff.

Very good suggestion. When I was getting RV-8 transition training my instructor did this - and it helped me a lot. One "sight picture" is worth 1000s of CFI words. :D
 
I have a fix for that.. one trick is to chock the wheels, have a student in the plane and raise the tail. By having the prop at 12 and 6, you can raise the tail and let them see the sight picture where the prop would hit. Usually it’s at such a ridiculous angle that the student realizes that you don’t need to be afraid to raise the tail on takeoff.

nice! I'm going to remember this in case I ever get a chance to try it again!
 
I am scared to read the first page…. the title got me laughing pretty good, somebody please tell me the op was joking LOL.
 
Exactly.............

I can't count the number of tailwheel checkouts I've done over the years but certainly a ton of them.
If students learning on tricycle gear aircraft were held to the same standards as tailwheel students by their instructors then tailwheel checkouts would be a lot shorter in time.
They are not held to the same standard because most instructors learned in tricycle gear and their own standards are not that high.
I can always tell the quality of instruction pilots have had when I'm doing tailwheel checkouts...some requiring only a few hours and others up to 15+ hours. It really shows. When I realize I'm dealing with a student that has had a very high level of training I always ask who his instructor was. It took a few years before I was teaching another of this fellows students and sure enough another fast checkout....good training is easy to detect.
Tailwheel aircraft come equipped with high standards required built right in for both students and instructors ...
Tailwheel aircraft are not all equal either with some requiring a very high level of skill.
RV's, Cubs Cessna140, 170's and Citabrias are on the super easy level with Pitts, Texans near the top and Pacers and Luscombe near the middle.

I learned to fly in 1967 in a straight-tail C-150. My instructor taught me to fly it like a taildragger. He beat it through my head that if the nose wheel could be lifted, then it better not be on the ground. Not long after solo, I bought a T-Craft.
Transition was unbelievably simple.
On my PPL check ride my T-Craft was down so I rented a C-150. The only problem I had was when the DPE had me do slips I discovered that a swept tail C-150 does not have nearly enough rudder authority.
 
Me as an instructor while my pre-solo student is practicing touch and goes

Outside: Yeah, whatever. I'm gonna take a nap over here

Inside: The scary music at the beginning of the military training video

:D:D:D
 
I learned to fly in 1967 in a straight-tail C-150. My instructor taught me to fly it like a taildragger. He beat it through my head that if the nose wheel could be lifted, then it better not be on the ground. Not long after solo, I bought a T-Craft.
Transition was unbelievably simple.
On my PPL check ride my T-Craft was down so I rented a C-150. The only problem I had was when the DPE had me do slips I discovered that a swept tail C-150 does not have nearly enough rudder authority.

Your certainly correct on swept tail Cessna 150’s or 172’s for that matter, just not enough rudder for proper slips, especially when compared to your T cart. Your T cart was quite the little machine, certainly got lots out of 65hp and on hot days liked to hang in the air on landings. :)
 
Your certainly correct on swept tail Cessna 150’s or 172’s for that matter, just not enough rudder for proper slips, especially when compared to your T cart. Your T cart was quite the little machine, certainly got lots out of 65hp and on hot days liked to hang in the air on landings. :)

My 1941 T-Craft was converted to 75 hp and performed beautifully. Unfortunately it has disappeared from the face of the earth. If anyone knows anything pointing to the whereabouts of N36125, I would greatly appreciate that information.
 
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