VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Education > Formation Flying
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 06-06-2021, 07:28 AM
RV8iator's Avatar
RV8iator RV8iator is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Saint Simons Island , GA
Posts: 1,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av8rRob View Post
Yes, Im doing the advanced formation clinic with the Beech Boys (so mainly bonanzas and some mooneys). My problem was in the element landings because Im trying to hold position on his wing yet he slows down so much faster than my plane. I did go a bit wide (being on the outside of the turn) to help out from being too acute.
Lead should use partial flaps initially and gentle power reductions. In all my time flying formation a good lead can make all the difference. Just my opinion but I donít think your planes are that different.
__________________
Jerry "Widget" Morris
RV 8, N8JL, 3,100+ hours on my 8.

VAF #818
Saint Simons Island, GA. KSSI
PIF 2007 - 2022

I just wish I could afford to live the way I do
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-06-2021, 09:25 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sidney, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,218
Default

When you're at the firewall and lead is walking away from you, you ask lead to slow down (in a 150HP RV-6 flying with a Rocket, I do this a lot...). Ditto on the slow end, if he's slowed down faster/farther than you can, ask him to speed up.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-06-2021, 09:38 AM
RhinoDrvr RhinoDrvr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Lemoore (Fresno), CA
Posts: 171
Default

A good flight lead should never go to idle, as -2 always needs to have more drag available for corrections. If the airplanes are perfectly matched, and lead goes to idle, there is no way for -2 to correct an acute position. RVís have enough drag to slow to landing speed above idle, but it takes some planning.

On a formation landing, typically this requires a wider, shallower pattern than we normally fly in our RVís.

My first guess is to chalk this up to flight lead technique. In the jets one of the first things we need to teach new leads is not to use above 92-94% on climbout (depending on how many wingmen you have) and not to use less than 72-74% on descent. Otherwise your wingmen will be using afterburner / speedbrake to try and stay with you. Same applies to RVís, but with fewer tools to fix it.
__________________
Evan Levesque
RV-8 N88MJ (Built by Michael Robbins)
Lemoore, CA
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-06-2021, 12:37 PM
fl-mike's Avatar
fl-mike fl-mike is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,574
Default

Element landings are a true test of lead skills, especially with mixed equipment. My objective is a smooth continuous descent to the precision approach aiming marks.
I shoot for a 500 fpm descent rate at 80-90mph starting at the perch and all the way to the flare. This seems to keep everyone I fly with comfortably in their envelope. Less fpm is okay, more is bad. Lead should never be at idle until the flair. You really "fly" to the landing. And, as others have said, it is a wider/longer pattern than the normal formation recovery.

Lead has to practice this, especially if they are a "go flat pitch and dive for the numbers" type. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a surprised look from a newbie lead when I'm at idle, full flaps, and going sideways looking at them on final with a "I've got nothing left except the anchor!" look.

I always request/remind lead "500fpm" if we are briefing a formation landing. If you're a lead and can't do this, go out and practice solo until you can.
__________________
Mike W
Venice, FL
RV-6A. Mattituck TMX O-360, FP, GRT Sport EFIS, L3 Lynx NGT-9000
N164WM
N184WM reserved (RV-8)....finishing kit in progress. Titan IOX-370

Last edited by fl-mike : 06-06-2021 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-06-2021, 12:44 PM
Av8rRob's Avatar
Av8rRob Av8rRob is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rescue, CA. KROB
Posts: 395
Default

Thanks guys for all the feedback. Just flew my first 6 ship this morning. Awesome
__________________
Rob Lasater
Rv-14 flying baby, yeah.
Paid Dec 2020
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-06-2021, 08:55 PM
gblanck gblanck is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 107
Default lead

I was the lead for Rob on these two flights- so, yes, no doubt my technique could have been better and made things easier for him.

That said- I never got close to idle power, and don't think power reductions were unreasonably aggressive and we were not slow! On our second flight I was much more deliberate about making more gradual power reductions, which worked better, but Rob still had trouble matching.

My prop is a WW RV74, which I've found does decelerate even more aggressively than my previous WW 200RV.
__________________
Greg Blanck
RV-8 Completed March 2014
Redwood City, CA
RV-8 Build Log
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-07-2021, 06:02 AM
ronschreck's Avatar
ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,692
Default It's up to lead...

A good lead will consider the skill of his wingman and the capabilities of his wingman's airplane. This is most important during formation aerobatics as well as formation landings where the extreme edges of the flight envelope are approached. During the descent for the formation landing the leader should never use full flaps, never be at full idle and flatten the approach so that more power is required to stay on the descent to the runway. For a turning descent to final the wingman should be on the outside of the turn unless crosswinds are a factor, in which case the wingman should be on the upwind side during landing to avoid having to deal with leader's wing wash and the tendency to weathervane into the wind during rollout.

Not sure I understand the comments here about "lead" and "lag" during a formation approach. If the wingman is so far out that lead and lag come into play this is hardly a formation approach. While power differences from the leader are an issue during turns, this can be minimized by maintaining a tight position on lead. Power differential is most evident during formation aerobatics where the boundaries of the flight envelope are closely approached. A tight formation will minimize the power differential required. You may even see wing overlap during aggressive aerobatic formation flight.

Lead and lag play a huge part in extended trail formation and power differential is hardly an issue. That's what makes trail so much fun!
__________________
Ron Schreck
IAC National Judge
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2250 Hours- Sold
My Aerobatic Video
My Formation Video
CAF B-25 - Airbase Arizona
VAF 2021 Donor
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-07-2021, 07:24 AM
RV8iator's Avatar
RV8iator RV8iator is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Saint Simons Island , GA
Posts: 1,617
Default Chalk this up as a learning experience!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblanck View Post
I was the lead for Rob on these two flights- so, yes, no doubt my technique could have been better and made things easier for him.

That said- I never got close to idle power, and don't think power reductions were unreasonably aggressive and we were not slow! On our second flight I was much more deliberate about making more gradual power reductions, which worked better, but Rob still had trouble matching.

My prop is a WW RV74, which I've found does decelerate even more aggressively than my previous WW 200RV.
There are replies here from a bunch of folks with a LOT of RV formation experience. Every flight is a learning experience and those of us who have many hundreds of hours of RV formation and formation acro experience look at every flight as such.
Basically what all the responses here are saying is your different props had nothing to do with his problems.
Keep practicing and remember it's a whole lot harder to fly lead than wing.
Have fun out there..
__________________
Jerry "Widget" Morris
RV 8, N8JL, 3,100+ hours on my 8.

VAF #818
Saint Simons Island, GA. KSSI
PIF 2007 - 2022

I just wish I could afford to live the way I do
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-07-2021, 09:35 AM
wcalvert's Avatar
wcalvert wcalvert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Anacortes Wa
Posts: 272
Default

The old saying that a wingman should never open his mouth except to say "you're on fire" or "break left/right" will also include "give me a couple" when the lead is having an issue ...

Not allowing your wingy to stay in position due to performance is the Lead's issue
__________________
RV-7 Tipper
Bill (Wild) VA-165 '90-'93
Anacortes, Wa

First Flight 7/17/2021!!
- Been there, Donated 2021
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-07-2021, 01:18 PM
ronschreck's Avatar
ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wcalvert View Post
The old saying that a wingman should never open his mouth except to say "you're on fire" or "break left/right" will also include "give me a couple" when the lead is having an issue .
And don't forget the wingman's obligation to his leader at the bar: "I'll take the fat one."
__________________
Ron Schreck
IAC National Judge
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2250 Hours- Sold
My Aerobatic Video
My Formation Video
CAF B-25 - Airbase Arizona
VAF 2021 Donor
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.