How good is your warranty?

Do you ever think about your engine warranty? What?s to think about, it?s in black and white isn?t it? Well, yes and no.
As in many things in life the devil is in the details. It doesn?t matter what you think the warranty covers. What counts is what the vendor thinks it covers, as I learnt to my cost.
Short version of my story:
I have a low time Superior IO 360 bought new from a well known engine builder in western Canada. It has shown some metal in the filter all along, but the amount increased so we put it on watch. Eventually the engine was pulled and sent back for investigation. At this point I got lots of soothing noises but any queries about warranty coverage were deflected. The engine was disassembled and the centre crankshaft bearing was found to be badly scored, starting at the oil port in the bearing shell.
No other damage of any kind was found.
It was explained to me that the warranty would not cover it, as it was damage ?consistent with using a dirty funnel to add oil.?
It didn?t seem right, but I don?t know a lot about these engines so I started phoning. Several old hands on this site plus numerous industry sources gave me their opinions.

The verdict: This has all the hallmarks of a chip left in the engine from manufacture. Junk introduced by shoddy maintenance practices is highly unlikely to cause this kind of damage. As one guy said, ? in theory, you could pour a whole cup of chips into the oil filler and it would not circulate through the engine.?

In any event, the only opinion that matters is that of your engine builder. Even though I?m sure he doesn?t believe his own BS.
He knows I won?t take him to court for a few thousand dollars. Nor am I prepared to tie my engine up for an unknown length of time in legal proceedings with an unknown outcome.

This company has enjoyed good support from the RV community in large part because of their generous warranty and great support for ignorant home builders like me. However, the company was sold recently and the new owners seem to have a different business model.

That is hard to read Jim. Sorry for your problems with this company. Thanks for posting about your experience. I know there are two sides to every story and hearing yours helps us pay attention to where we get our engines and other parts.

"However, the company was sold recently and the new owners seem to have a different business model."

I had been wondering whether the change in ownership had affected anything ... Most of the glowing recommendations were often aimed at specific people who no longer work there ...

manufacturing chips

cleaning manufacturing chips from new aviation engine hardware is a problem. proven rigorous cleaning methods should be used. mfg chips typically have a slight curl and may have texture. I found one mfg chip from my engine in the filter after the first hour of operation when changing the oil.

...This has all the hallmarks of a chip left in the engine from manufacture. Junk introduced by shoddy maintenance practices is highly unlikely to cause this kind of damage. As one guy said, ? in theory, you could pour a whole cup of chips into the oil filler and it would not circulate through the engine.?

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The screen and filter would be expected to snag any chunks & chips put into the oil filler - this sounds to me more like someone did not clean the oil passages in the case halves before assembling the engine.

Tough to hear about these situations - especially with an engine builder that has had such a good historical reputation.

Dan

The money hurts of course, but most of all I hate to be fed a line. These guys know how the oil system works.

Many years ago I got caught in something similar. Overhauler had a good reputation, but we didn't know things were changing. Father was in the process of handing off the business to his son. Son refused to honor his father's quoted price. A year later we had compression leaks past the exhaust valve. We sent them the cylinders, they fixed them and sent them back - COD. They refused any warantee coverage. Within a few years they were out of business.

I feel your pain! It is amazing to me how some companies are so short sited. While many are very credible some just don't realize that TAKING CARE OF THE CUSTOMER IS THE CHEAPEST ADVERTISING MONEY CAN BUY! I got ripped by an engine company (not this one) and have cost them a few sales and proud of it.
I would be tempted to bet that this would have been an total nonissue when the former (retired) employes were working there. Larry

"TAKING CARE OF THE CUSTOMER IS THE CHEAPEST ADVERTISING MONEY CAN BUY!"

Seriously ... the business one will loose way more money from a bad review that it would've cost them to fix it.

This is especially true in such a small market space, where you can be sure said bad review will be seen by a LARGE portion of your potential clientèle (as opposed to your average mass retail space, where many bad review go undiscovered).

I'll look elsewhere

I've purchased 3 engines from them in the past and currently thinking about an IO-390 for my RV-14. I also wondered what effect the recent sale would have.
After reading this thread,I'll be looking elsewhere ..........
PMSHEP

I think it is equally important to share these experiences and pass on the word, both good and not so good, otherwise there will be no difference between those who stand behind their product and service and those who are no so keen to wanting to keep their customers.

So with that, I want to thank you for sharing the info even though I am not sure which shop has provided such poor service.

Bavafa said:

I think it is equally important to share these experiences and pass on the word, both good and not so good, otherwise there will be no difference between those who stand behind their product and service and those who are no so keen to wanting to keep their customers.
So with that, I want to thank you for sharing the info even though I am not sure which shop has provided such poor service.

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I think there may be a "hint" within his signature.

Just as important is that these company's see and hear the backlash, we live in a much smaller world and the power of this group and others can put a business like this out!

Maybe they'll be reading this ... A well known engine builder like them should be on these forums regularly to monitor or even provide assistance ... so we'll see ...

Jim,

Thanks for posting your story. I'm tired of advertisers here getting continuous praise for good service. If it is deserved that is one thing, but I believe there are quite a few stories like this that do not ever get published.

You say that it has been making metal since new. I'm wondering how much metal, and how often have you changed the filters?

I would ask them to explain where the original contaminates came from. Assuming that they did come through the dipstick, how did they make their way into an area that is pressurised to 60 psi by oil flow through the galley? Ask them about the condition of the oil pump housing. This is the area that typically gets damaged and you find aluminium in the filter along with the contaminate that caused the problem.

If these guys won't honour warranty in their own shop, what chance would we have getting them to pay for an out of area repair (on the other side of the world)?

When I bought my engine, an Experimental, with non OEM parts, built by an engine shop made sense. It was cheaper - about $5-8K cheaper. Today the clones are now more expensive than buying from Van's.

Given this I have been asking some of the local builders who ask for advice - Why not just buy genuine Lycoming, with an international warranty, backed by the biggest name in town?

How many of these engine shops would really be able to stand behind their warranties if there was a large AD of cylinders or crankshafts and the manufacturer walked away?

They were on my short list

The one thing I liked about them, the warranty was three years from first flight. Warranty means nothing when they won't honor it. I will take them off my list. Just from posting this they have lost 2 potential customers. Thanks for sharing.

Concerned since I have an engine coming from them

Very concerned about this since I have an io-382 coming from them in December. I contacted my sales rep and advised him of this thread. He thanked me for the heads up and said they would respond with their comments.

It's a relatively small world in home built's and company attitudes towards customers can quickly make or break them.

Thanks for the info.

Tom H.

Joe Parish said:

The one thing I liked about them, the warranty was three years from first flight. Warranty means nothing when they won't honor it. I will take them off my list. Just from posting this they have lost 2 potential customers. Thanks for sharing.

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The infamous Archie Bunker once said - "It's easy to be generous when it don't cost you nothin' "

Let see if the VAF pressure makes a difference, if not then they have a larger problem.

Shopping for an Engine

I'm shopping for an engine and plan to place an order after the new year. I'll be watching this thread closely. As it is today, it's definitely reducing the vendor pool for me.

Brian

Warranty Coverage from Aero Sport Power

Aero Sport Power does not normally communicate customer service situations in a public forum like this but there are two sides to every story.

? The engine was originally shipped to the client in January of 2009.
? The engine was in operation commencing January 2012.
? This engine was in operation for 108.5 hours, with multiple oil changes, and no indications of any issues recorded in the logbook.
? Aero Sport Power was contacted with concerns that metal was found in the filter.
? The engine was pulled from the aircraft for a metal contamination inspection on August 21, 2014.
? Engine arrived back to Aero Sport Power in September 2014, 5.5 years later with 147.8 hrs TTSN.
? 2009/2011 - As part of our service, the customer accessed parts at $0.00 cost.
? The client declined the invitation to attend the inspection process in September 2014.
? After inspection it was determined that this was not a warranty claimable situation; however, Aero Sport Power tried to meet him part way by covering a portion of the costs.
? The engine was repaired, test run and returned to service.

Comments in this thread have indicated that there is only one possibility for this particular case of metal contamination, when in fact, there are many possibilities.

We do sympathize with our customer?s unfortunate situation but it is important to note that according to the client?s logbook this engine performed without any indications of metal contamination for 108 hours.

We have taken this warranty situation into consideration (2008 practices vs. current) and have improved the Three Year Warranty Program so our customers now have a Certificate of Warranty that clearly defines the terms and conditions with every engine purchase.

Aero Sport Power is committed to not only maintaining the reputation that the previous owners had within the RV community, but also on improving business practices.

We will continue to monitor this forum but we will not further comment on this specific situation. If you have further questions or concerns regarding our warranty please contact Aero Sport Power directly at 1-877-376-0861.

Thanks for responding for all of us, who have purchased Aerosport Power engines.

Sounds to me like the warranty is about 108 hours or less. That's one expensive motor.

I think the difference is Bart and Sue, that are no longer there, didn't need a "certificate of warranty" to make things right (or to weasel out of a claim), they just did the right thing and as a result had one of the best reputations in the business for support. No one is perfect and things happen, the difference between a good supplier and a great one is how they handle problems when they come up. The handling of this issue is likely to cost the company much more in the long run that what it would have costs to make things right in the first place.

Contaminated funnel, give me a (explative) break.

Why yes... we keep an assortment of contaminated funnels in the hangar, one with steel, one with sand, heck even one with shreaded aluminum. Really keeps the oil analysis folks on their toes.

Well this really sucks...

I've got a brand new Aerosport Power IO-320 sitting in a crate in my hangar.

Guess I shouldn't expect my warranty to be worth anything now.

-Dan

Comment deleted, I did not see the Aerosport posting above.

Saying "it worked fine the first X hours/years" seems to kind of nullify the point of any warranty ... of course it worked fine ... and then it didn't. If saying it worked fine for a while is a valid excuse to get out of warranty coverage, then there's no point in any warranty at all, ever!

So then there's the root cause. They state there are many possible causes ... but they zeroed in on a cause that puts the responsibility on the owner and again voids warranty coverage. Hmmmm, what about all the other possible causes, are they categorically impossible in this scenario?

I know neither the builder nor the company, so I don't have any prejudice one way or the other ... but one should always weigh the cost of the potential of bad publicity in making these warranty decisions ... if you're going to turn down warranty coverage, you want to be 110% sure you're in the right, and be willing to defend your position.

Walt said:

I think the difference is Bart and Sue, that are no longer there, didn't need a "certificate of warranty" to make things right (or to weasel out of a claim), they just did the right thing and as a result had one of the best reputations in the business for support.

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Absolutely spot on Walt. I was a bit hesitant to lay it all out in my first post - I hate panning people online, but felt it should be done.
I guess my guard was down not thinking about the sale of the company. I didn't realize it might be crucial to report the metal immediately. I was told this sometimes happens and that it would likely stop. It did taper off but then increased (didn't get reported until Dec 2013)
Aerosport did give me a "break", of sorts. They charged $3950 for the inspection/repair. With taxes, freight, a new oil cooler, prop governor insp. , prop flush and few hundred to my A and P, my total costs came to roughly $7500.
Doesn't feel like a break.

Aero Sport Power said:

We do sympathize with our customer?s unfortunate situation but it is important to note that according to the client?s logbook this engine performed without any indications of metal contamination for 108 hours.

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The warranty was understood by the entire industry to be three years from first flight. There was no warranty card because there really weren't any conditions with Bart. It seems to me that the customer was inside the warranty window and you are arbitrarily adding conditions that favour yourselves.

Both parties agree there was no corrosion found so the 5+ years is irrelevant to the argument. That's the warranty that the company sold him.

I don't buy the 108 hours without metal argument either. You seem to be saying that unless the defect was present immediately the warranty would not cover it. For all we know something was lodged in the oil galley from manufacture and didn't break off until 100 hours had elapsed.

Whenever it occurred the engine was being bulk stripped, rings, bearings and oil pump replaced. He's already paid for flushing the accessories which may not have occurred if he acted sooner.

I bought my engine from Mattituck about the same time as this gentleman. At that point the ASP was $3,000 more expensive than the competition. Mattituck's engine came with a 1 year warranty. They also had a package that almost matched the ASP offering and it was the same price. There were a few additional benefits such as flow matching cylinders, but most that additional cost covered the Mattituck 3Y warranty (as it was explained to me). Even then the clock was ticking from delivery. No one else had a "from first flight" warranty and ASP sold many engines as a result.

In effect he has already paid ASP more for the engine in the beginning .... I understand why he is upset. I would assume the supplier would give the customer the benefit of the doubt in a case like this. I am pretty confident that would have been the case in the past.

I bought the engine in my RV-8 from AeroSport Power, because of the great reputation for customer support high quality work. This event clearly shows that the customer support is very different now than before the change of ownership.

I?m seriously considering building an RV-10, and just assumed that I would buy the engine from AeroSport Power. That assumption just changed.

I was trying to learn a bit about the details of the oil system ...

Oil is added to the sump, and it then must go through the oil screen AND oil filter before being distributed in the engine, correct?

One of the oil output ports is right on the centre bearing of the crankshaft, keeping the crankshaft nice and oiled up at one of its contact points. Makes sense.

So how would any contamination introduced via the oil funnel into the oil sump ever make it to that spot? The oil filter is micron level filtration right?

And if it had come from the sump, and made it past everything, it could've gotten spread out all over the place ... not just that one particular spot, correct?

Seems to me the explanation that there was some FOD inside the system from the beginning makes more sense ...it would've been located in a place that affected that one and only oil output port.

I'll note that ASP was saying "in the logbook", which is a bit of a cop out. It's a very "certified" view of things to assume that the log is the only reflection of reality that matters. If your client says it's been happening since day one, then that's the information that matters, not the logbook.

Exactly the conclusions I came to (with lots of help!) All your points are spot on. One comment:

Anything introduced into the sump has to make it through the finger screen and the filter. There is a filter bypass, which opens with high oil pressure.
If you start the engine on a cold day with thick oil, say single weight 100, and run the throttle up to higher power it could bypass.

I use multiweight year round, plus I live on the coast and never fly in very cold conditions. I hope I'm not stupid enough to run a cold engine up to high power.

Even with no filtration at all, how does one explain any contamination all going down the one path only?

I think there's law of fluid dynamics that can explain such a scenario ... but you'd need to design a system specifically with that feature (separation of flows and their contents according to certain specific requirements).