Would you prefer I do an overhead break?
But, done properly, an overhead entry is perfectly safe…Nope, just join the traffic pattern and wait your turn. It happens that the approach to a field can line up with a straight-in, but when other aircraft are in the pattern why not just join the conga line and be safe?
Nope, just join the traffic pattern and wait your turn. It happens that the approach to a field can line up with a straight-in, but when other aircraft are in the pattern why not just join the conga line and be safe?
-Marc
But, done properly, an overhead entry is perfectly safe…
+1.+1.
And extremely efficient.
John beat me to it. You are obviously saying an overhead break is unsafe, I'm interested to hear you explain why you believe so.
But, done properly, an overhead entry is perfectly safe…
Well, this thread has drifted off of Dan's original point. In regard to doing an overhead approach at the airport where I'm based:
Yes, executed with no traffic conflict it works nicely.
I guess "fun" is up to individual interpretation, but I certainly don't consider it "unfun".
However....since everybody has a video camera in their pocket, and everybody can track my ADSB bread crumbs, and since so many pilots think RVers were placed on earth just to abuse the airspace system, and because it would only take one of those uninformed "corporate" students on the ramp making a complaint to the FAA about my unsafe operations to cause more attention than I need.......I don't do overhead breaks anymore.
I've learned to pick my battles.
But, done properly, an overhead entry is perfectly safe…
Just imagine how difficult it would be to drive defensively if other drivers were allowed to turn left from the right lane, etc.
Oddly enough, there are places where the left turns are done from the right lane... Albeit with advanced (or delayed) signals that hold through traffic to allow the left turns. Someone once explained to me why this was more efficient, if less logical, but I can't for the life of me remember the reasoning right now.Now you're throwing out a red herring - that maneuver actually IS unsafe, and is in fact illegal in most circumstances.
This is the reason that our group essentially stopped doing overhead approaches at non-towered fields... Especially busy ones. We used to do them at pattern altitude, which created a potential conflict with traffic crossing at midfield to join the circuit. Then we did them as "battle breaks," starting lower with a pitch out and up to the perch. That makes for an abbreviated circuit that fits well inside the standard circuit... But that means we're not where others expect us to be so we realized that's not ideal either.I don't believe anyone is saying that an overhead break is inherently unsafe. However, it creates inherent challenges for others in the pattern. First, if you announce that you are doing one, 95% of the other pilots have no idea what that is and therefore have limited situational awareness, as they can't predict your movements. If other pilots see you doing 150 knots on what appears to be a final approach, how are they supposed to process that and decide how to proceed. If the average pilot on downwind sees a guy on final he probably assumes he is about to get cut off. It's seems unlikely he would assume you would over fly and form up behind him. How could he possibly predict that. 100% confident he wasn't taught what one is during his training.
Now you're throwing out a red herring - that maneuver actually IS unsafe, and is in fact illegal in most circumstances.
Maybe a bad example. It was familiar to me, as I used to ride motorcycles. I learned early to NEVER take your eyes off traffic in the opposing left lane. EVER. It is the easiest way to get killed on a bike.
I agree that it is a very safe manuever. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is foreign to other pilots. It becomes unsafe for the other guy in the pattern as he starts taking evasive action to avoid conflict with the guy doing something he doesn't understand and therefore feels at risk.
Didn't mean to start a debate and will stop now.
For any airplane with poor or no forward visibility over the nose the best is a tight, curving approach all the way to the end of the runway. Also good to remember that those types can only see an airplane that enters the runway from that type of approach and usually in only one direction.
Includes many antique airplanes the Stearman being one of the more popular.
don't assume that even if the other guy's communications skills are good, that his radios are working. Or that he even knows it. The Mk1 eyeball rules all.
Good that you were still in flying mode, not restaurant planning on your ipad!...
On the ground, we had a chat with the Cessna driver...he said he was announcing as well, and heard us. We never heard a thing from him. When he checked his radio, mounted underneath the panel, the whole thing fell off onto the floor. Root cause: identified.
...
It would not have helped you in this specific case, and I'm not sure it's in the AIM, but I try to get some indication if the other guys in the pattern see me or can hear me on the radio. In other words, establish 2-way commu, the misnications with them. If someone says "Cessna 123, downwind RWY23" I'll add "RV 456, joining downwind RWY23 behind Cessna 123, in sight". Usually this will elicit a click-click from the Cessna.
Brian, I'll choose to disagree with your comment:
"the non-towered pilot who announces "Cessna 12345 departing runway 18"...and that's it. If I'm approaching the airport, this type of announcement means virtually NOTHING."
Hearing someone make that call as I'm approaching a field while monitoring is very useful. It leads me to continue the conversation to confirm the rest of the story ... this is common around my neck of the woods and seems to work well.
Maybe I'm missing your point
Cheers
Indeed - everyone has this problem - don't let that discourage you from sharing your knowledge and experience with us. Your tip here is a good one, and I have to confess I probably give information about what I'm doing after I take off about 50% of the time - thanks for the reminder to bump it up closer to 100%!...
This is one reason I dislike posting....it's sometimes difficult to convey the intent of a conversation by text. I do a better job of selling this point in person...Thanks and take care.
"the non-towered pilot who announces "Cessna 12345 departing runway 18"...and that's it. If I'm approaching the airport, this type of announcement means virtually NOTHING."