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Anyone using ElectroAir Electronic Ignition?

Original ElectroAir

I saw this system while down at SnF.

www.electroair.net

They aren't newcomers but I don't know of anyone using one. Reports??? :confused: CJ
I talked to Jeff, inventor, founder when he had the company years ago. Very nice guy. As was stated above new owner and their web site as lots of info. http://www.electroair.net/ (they have lots of detailed info on their site)

I have a friend who has dual electroair (original design) on his RV-4 for at least 8 years. The design has changed; How I don't know. The coil pack and electronics where all together (but separate from the trigger). Now the coil pack, electronics and trigger are all separate. They offer crank trigger or trigger mounted in mag hole. I think they use a 60 tooth (minus 2) "reluctor" trigger verses a hall affect design trigger. Reluctor pickups are super simple and reliable and used on OEM auto ignitions a lot. Hall affect uses a semiconductor pickup that senses a magnetic field. Electroair does some boasting on their site there reluctor 60 tooth minus 2 trigger has 1/4 crank resolution. You all can debate if that matters? They both work.

I have heard of almost no complaints of Electroair. One person did have an issue with a manifold transducer "soft" failure causing intermittent rough running problem at altitude in climbs. The problem was found and solved. Electroair is unique in that they do recommend aircraft plugs not auto plugs, but they provide harnesses for both. I don't like how they do their aircraft plug harness connection; there have been no problem; I just don't care for how its set up; there's nothing stopping you from using auto plugs. From Jeff's experiments he found performance improvement with aircraft plugs. Lightspeed recommends auto plugs but can make aircraft plug harness as well. The auto plug connection with typical silicone boot/clip is easy and light, and also apparently lightspeed found with super high spark voltage, arching of the typical spring contact inside aircraft spark plugs can occur.

The other complaint seems to apply to most all EI brands, kick back during start due to low voltage. That is not a common thing but varies. Some have no issue at all. Wire wound starters like the original SkyTec fly-weight starters are current hogs. If you add weak battery and lousy wiring you can have issues. Common fix is a second small aux battery isolated with a schottky diode to keep voltage up during start on the EI. If you have one EI & mag (usually the impulse coupled one) its not an issue, just start on magneto. However EI usually gives better starting. Lightspeed claims their unit (CDI) works with lower voltage than other EI's (induction), thus less susceptible to low volt, kick-back.


I liken the ElectroAir to be in between the Light Speed & E/P-mag in design and configuration with likely performance advantage over the E/P-mag due to larger coils, my opinion.

Lightspeed has probably the best performance and options. Of course trigger, coil and electronics are installed separately. Lightspeed is a CDI ignition system. Plasma II ($1,120-$1,315), *Plasma III ($1,395-$1,590) *MSD - Multi Spark (capacitor) Discharge

E/P-mag has the self powered option and best installation ease (all in one package). Down side is no doubt coil size is a compromise (one smaller coil). It is an "induction ignition". $963-$1365 (plus $115 for gear if needed)

Electro Air, is like E/P-mag in that its an "induction ignition" design like E/P-mag, but has installed separate components like lightspeed. It uses a hall effect trigger in the mag location. I suspect the two large coils performs a little better than E/P-mag? When I say better, I mean more spark. Any EI, any brand is a huge leap beyond the spark of a magneto any way. The electroair like lightspeed has some (or the original did) ability to display advance and turn it off with a toggle I recall. The functional difference between the original and new design electroair I'm not sure of. ($1,275)

I do like the idea of having the electronics in a separate location verses the E/P-mag all in one location. On the other hand the fit/form/function of the E/P-mag is pretty slick being all in one unit. The only thing I don't like is the wire terminal connection strip on the E/P-mag. It's not a great thing for electrical connections on something vibrating.

Cost wise they all cost about the same when you add it all up. Lightspeed has been around the longest. Klaus has been accused of being grumpy but he is sharp. I have heard nothing but good things about the E/P-mag people. Nothing is perfect but the customer service is important. I asked Electoair questions and they got back to me quickly, straight shooters, no bragging, we are the best in the world, just good info. They have what looks like a good product.

Update: I wrote Electoair and they got back to me quickly and answered my questions in full. Their unit does have capability to display timing advance when you wire up a user supplied panel volt meter at your option. You can turn the vacuum advance off if you wire in a toggle switch at your option. They have a mag timing housing that uses the impulse gear which could save you money. When going from mags to dual EI, lightspeed and E/P-mag require you use only a straight gear. When you have two magnetos you only over one straight gear. The impulse gear & couple are different and can't be used. Electroair has mag timing housings that use either straight gear (usually right mag) or impulse gear (usually left mag). This saves you from having to buy a new gear if you have an impulse gear to use in the left position. They also have redesigned and improved their aircraft plug harness connection at the plug. Again they offer both auto or aircraft plug harnesses but recommend the aircraft plugs.
 
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Electroair System

I have the Electroair system plus a magneto. The timing is via a device which fits in the spare magneto hole.

My Electroair system has been running without problems since 1999 and has 800 hours of operation in my RV6A (Lycoming 180 hp).

I use the system at start up with a B&C starter and have never had any problems with kick back even when the battery started to get a little tired and needed replacing. Engine starts first time and idles at low RPM as smooth as a car.

I consider I have had excellent results with the system and would recommend it to anyone. Obviously I can not compare it to other systems but I have heard that the Electroair folks give excellent customer support in case you should have any questions or issues with their system.

What more can you ask for?

Barry F-PRVM
 
Electroair stuff uses primarily Electromotive components: http://www.emi.cc/

They have sold 1000X more systems than all the other aviation EI companies combined so are vastly experienced.

Failures and problems with these on automotive use seem to be magnetic crank sensor pickups and inability to start at very low voltages and/or very low cranking speeds. NSI used these on their conversions as well.
 
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I've been flying with one Electroair ignition and one mag for about 500 hours.

I have had two component failures during that time. The first was the prox switch that measures crank rotation. It failed at about 40 hours in service. The failure effectively pointed out one of the major concerns with flying behind a <realatively> low volume experimental ignition - support.

It was the week of SnF and I was unable to contact the manufacturer for a week (they were at Snf), so I was grounded at my home base. That was a bummer, but would have been a real problem if I'd been on the road somewhere.

More recently, the little LCD voltmeter that serves as an advance meter died. This gauge isn't necessary for flight, it just gives you information on the number of degrees of advance where the ignition is firing.
 
All, thanks for the replies.

This seems like a good, simple system where all the components are visible and easy to understand and troubleshoot.

I like these properties and think it will augment the traditional mag nicely.

Say, those who are using this, do you have an impulse coupling on your traditional mag so that you can start on "both"?

Do you think the coupling is necessary?

:confused: CJ
 
Electroair

Yes I have impulse coupling on my Slick magneto.

I start the engine with both the Electroair and the magneto turned ON.

Barry
 
Replace right mag, keep impulsed mag (left)

Do you think the coupling is necessary? CJ
You almost always replace the right mag, the non impulsed mag. If you see my post above I updated it in BLUE at the bottom. Most EI can't use the impulse gear which is different than the straight or none impulse gear.

Electroair has recently designed a second mag timing housing MTH that can use an impulse gear. They also have a MTH that uses a straight gear. The impulse gear attaches to the impulse assembly. As the engine turns the gear, it pre-loads a spring in the impulse coupling while the mag does not move, than "CLACK", the wound spring is released and spins the mag "catching up" to the engine. This fast spin gets voltage up for a hotter spark during start. Juice for spark is provided by the magnetos dynamo and proportional to rpm. Low rpm low spark. The impulse couple mechanism also delays timing. If you notice the left impulse mag usually has a spacer and longer studs? That is to make room for the impulse gear and assembly. Once the engine is running the impulse mechanism locks out and the mag is driven normally, 1:1 speed with engine and normal timing (25 deg). A&P's please correct me if wrong, that's how I see it.

If going with one EI, it's usually an advantage to retain the impulse magneto so you can start on it if you want or need to. Not withstanding the EI low supply voltage issue, during starts, EI usually do better than the mags during start because of the hotter spark. EI also electronically retard to timing to Zero and advance to 25 degree only when RPM comes up after start.

Most leave the regular mag off (impulse or not) during starting and start on the single EI. However never start with a straight mag on during start since the fixed advance can cause kick backs. The key switches on aircraft turn off the straight mag during cranking. Most people with a regular mag and EI use toggles but the Electroair can be used with a key.

It probably would not hurt to start with both the EI and impulse mag on together. It might even be good to start on the impulse mag only, occasionally, to make sure it works. However usually start on EI and than turn the magneto on.
 
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Have to remember that EI systems are usually microprocessor controlled and sometimes use magnetic pickups. Mag pickups are poor at generating a pulse at low rpm. No pulse, no spark. The NSI/ Electromotive units were known to have this fault. Hall Effect sensors are superior in this respect plus far more reliable devices to boot if mounted properly (not hanging off a circuit board like some system do).

Most micros also sign off at something above 5V so if your battery is poor, you get a double whammy and possible no start condition. Mags will work at near zero rpm by comparison.The 60 tooth wheel used by this system is really good for crank position resolution so timing is very accurate even at low cranking rpms with high CR pistons.
 
New E-Drive Starter

CJ,

Some "Food for Thought:"

If you're thinking about going with the Electroair ignition, I would recommend that you install the new Kelly Aerospace "E-Drive" starter. See http://www.kellyaerospace.com/starters.html. To my knowledge, the new E-Drive is the only general aviation starter that is specifically designed to be immune to prop kick-back damage. The Electroair ignition is less tolerant of a low-voltage condition (weak battery) than the Lightspeed ignitions, so prop kick-back is a "more likely" possibility with the Electroair. (Electroair ignitions require 8 volts minimum to operate; Lightspeeds require 6.2 volts minimum.) Not that a prop kick-back is "probable" with the Electroair (just keep your battery well-charged and all connections tight!), but it is just "more likely" with the Electroair than Lightspeed.

The Skytec NL wire-wound starter protects against prop kick-back with a replaceable shear pin, so it might also be used with the Electroair as long as you don't mind taking the starter apart to replace the shear pin if prop kick-back occurs. Note that the Skytec NL starter is only two ounces lighter than the E-Drive, but the Skytec NL is actually several ounces heavier in installation, because the Skytec requires a heavier 2-guage starter cable instead of the 4-gage (or smaller) starter cable required for the E-Drive. The reason for this is that the Skytec NL draws over twice the starting amperage of the E-Drive. See http://www.kellyaerospace.com/Edrive.html.

BOTTOM LINE: In my opinion, the "E-Drive" is now the preferred starter over Skytec's NL.

Here's a few pictures of the E-Drive I'm planning to install on my IO-360 angle-valve (with Lightspeed Dual Plasma III ignition):

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6597/edrive6kx7.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9738/edrive2wt2.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5219/edrive5il4.jpg

Best Regards,

Bill Palmer :)
Chino Hills, CA
RV-8A Still In-Work!
 
Ummm good food for thought

CJ, Some "Food for Thought:" If you're thinking about going with the Electroair ignition, I would recommend that you install the new Kelly Aerospace "E-Drive" starter. Bill Palmer :)
Chino Hills, CA RV-8A Still In-Work!
I see Kelly's E-Drive does not use a Bendix drive, which is a good thing, but I have a comment, it's a PM or "Permanent Magnet" starter. PM starters, like the original Skytec Flyweight. PM starters usually use way more current (drawing voltage down more) than "wire-wound" starters like Skytec's later Hi-Torque & "NL" starters, both wire-wound.

I saw the link you posted showing the E-drive draws less current than the "NL" with that cool chart. If its that efficient, cool. I suspect because it turns 1/2 as fast its really geared down (guessing). The NL is also geared and can provide more total torque at higher RPM, albeit at higher current. Kelly claims the best crank speed for an engine is 120 and 180 rpm (not 300 rpm). They also state required torque for a 6-cyl Lyc, is only 50-60 ft-lb. So it makes sense to use a smaller electric motor, geared way the heck down?

Note: They tested the 24 volt version. Wounder how the 12 volt versions compare? Also note the voltage drop curves at top. They don't explain how to use it, but the "NL" voltage drop is "shallower" or less, at least at higher torques? Price wise between the E-drive ($456) and NL ($450) is not much different.

The kick-back issue is there; I agree, but many have used the Electroair EI, even with fast turning PM starters, with out kick-backs. Electroair is straight about the Kick-Back issue. You are right 8 volts is min, 6.2 volts for the lightspeed. The lightspeed should be more kickback resistant but not immune? At the bottom of this link they talk about it: http://www.electroair.net/technical.html

Here is a good link from Skytec and their take on starter current draw. LINK The graph (bottom first page) compares current draw of various starters. The old style prestolite (big & heavy) had the least current draw, just under 200 amps. The PM starter was over 300 amps. :eek: The NL was one of the lower draw starters in this group. The E-drive was not tested or listed, nor was the torque or RPM listed.

Here is another skytec technical note about Electronic ignition and using an Aux battery: (http://www.skytecair.com/EI.htm) They offer two suggestions, one using a battery, the other a capacitor. I would NOT recommend the capacitor, its not practical or effective. Go with the small battery if you want to assure sufficient starting voltage for the EI. A small 2-3 Ah would work at almost 2 lbs, but if you want a true back-up, 4-5 Ah battery would be a better size, but the down side is the +2.5 lbs added. If worried, add the aux battery, which also can be an in-flight back-up. A side benefit of the Aux battery is it can also drive avionics during start. My engine monitor drops off line during start. An Aux bat could do double duty for both EI and engine monitor. Blue Mountain Avionics has a gouge on this: http://bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/battery_backup.pdf

A "wire wound" starter (just the Hi-Torque or B&C) with a good battery, proper wiring & ground and an engine that starts normally, in good health, should give you a kick-back safe set-up. #4 wire for starter? Yea that would work if the E-Drive really only draws 75 amps @ 60 ft-lbs torque (and you only need 60 ft-lb). Our battery-starter cable run is short, so not too much weight is added going with a #2, which gives less voltage drop as well. The only down side of the "BEST" starters is they do weigh more and cost a little more; it might be a good investment with EI equipped engines, especially the Electroair.
 
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snipped
The kick-back issue is there; I agree, but many have used the Electroair EI, even with fast turning PM starters, with out kick-backs. Electroair is straight about the Kick-Back issue. You are right 8 volts is min, 6.2 volts for the lightspeed. The lightspeed should be more kickback resistant but not immune? At the bottom of this link they talk about it: http://www.electroair.net/technical.html snipped.


George,
The web link shown above no longer works. Can you update it please?
 
The kick-back issue is there; I agree, but many have used the Electroair EI, even with fast turning PM starters, with out kick-backs. Electroair is straight about the Kick-Back issue. You are right 8 volts is min, 6.2 volts for the lightspeed. The lightspeed should be more kickback resistant but not immune? At the bottom of this link they talk about it: http://www.electroair.net/technical.html

George,
The web link shown above no longer works. Can you update it please?

There's a "Tech Support" drop down in the menu bar on the main site.
 
I have been running the electroair ignition for over 1000hours with no issues. The only downside of this install is you can not use the standard mag key switch. They make a switch module, or you must install a separate switch to turn off the electroair ignition to do an ignition check. If you try to use the existing mag switch, it will backfire when doing a mag check due the the system requiring a full revolution to re sync the timing after shut down. I start the engine on just the electroair ignition without any issue’s whatsoever. My other ignition is a non impulse mag with fixed timing. Most all the EFIS mfrs have custom voltage inputs which can be configured to display timing advance.
 
Electroair Ignition

I have the same system as Bill Peyton above. I use a Skytec 149 NL high torque starter and start on the Electroair (right side) with the non impulse mag on the left turned off. After start I switch on the left mag, starts easy every time with no kickback.
 
Hmmmmm ...

I have been running the electroair ignition for over 1000hours with no issues. The only downside of this install is you can not use the standard mag key switch. They make a switch module, or you must install a separate switch to turn off the electroair ignition to do an ignition check. If you try to use the existing mag switch, it will backfire when doing a mag check due the the system requiring a full revolution to re sync the timing after shut down. I start the engine on just the electroair ignition without any issue’s whatsoever. My other ignition is a non impulse mag with fixed timing. Most all the EFIS mfrs have custom voltage inputs which can be configured to display timing advance.

Bill we may have something different, BUT ...

I used an ElectroAir (Jeff Rose) system (Gold then quickly to Purple) vintage system in my RV6 for over 2000 hours and the traditional "keyswitch". For a good portion of the time I had a magneto with impulse coupler. Later it was replaced with a PMag.

I have a dedicated (fused) connection directly to the battery to power it (bypassing Master Contactor) for EI power.

"Mag Checks" were not a problem.

Again, we probably have something slightly different between out setups.
 
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