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The ADS-B System is flawed

jjhoneck

Well Known Member
I've flown with ADS-B in for 13 months. I've flown with a panel mounted ADS-B in/out avionics system (GRT Horizon HXR/SkyRadar/Trig TT-22) for six months.

After this length of time, and dozens of flights, here are my conclusions:

1. ADS-B is effed up at the base engineering level. The system should be transmitting position information in the clear continuously, not just when triggered by an ADS-B out transmitter.

2. ATC doesn't know or care if the system is functional at any given moment, or if an individual ADS-B transmitter is up/down.

3. Flight Service, the part of the FAA with supposed reporting responsibility for ADS-B, also knows nothing about individual transmitters, or whether the system as a whole is up or down.

In other words -- NO ONE KNOWS OR CARES.

Right now, I'm frustrated. I have spent the money and installed the ADS-B in/out capability in my panel. I understand how the system works, and how it's SUPPOSED to work. Instead of growing in confidence, I have become LESS confident with it over time, as I have discovered the following:

1. Radar is pretty good. Not as good as XM (which I flew with for nine years), but pretty good.

2. Traffic is up/down/up/down. Improving slowly, but it's still up/down on the Texas coast, and mostly down inland.

3. When ADS-B goes down, no one in authority can tell us if it's a problem with the system, a problem with an individual transmitter, or a problem with our installation. Everything just goes *poof!* -- and you are left wondering whether it's a system, a transmitter, or an on-board avionics problem.

THAT is a fatal flaw, and one that needs to be addressed.

In fact, so far, the ONLY person I've found in the entire FAA who knows anything about ADS-B (and is willing to help) is the fellow who posted here last month about obtaining a report on our individual system's compliance.

Although this was welcome and helpful, it isn't worth a bucket of warm snot for troubleshooting ADS-B on a day-to-day basis. For that, we need the following from the FAA:

1. Published NOTAMs when the system, or individual transmitters, are down.

2. The ability to report anomolies and outages to the FAA on the fly, AS THEY OCCUR. (And, of course, someone who then analyzes and acts on these reports.)

Until this sort of two-way transparency happens, the system will remain flawed and dangerous. You will not know if you're seeing what you're supposed to be seeing, when you're supposed to be seeing it.

The FAA has six more years to get this right. Let's hope they figure it out.
 
Jay,

My experience one year into ADS-B In/Out has been just the opposite here in Florida. I think Florida was one of the first states totally built out and perhaps we are a little bit further along than Texas, but things are working great here as far as I can tell.

I have found that traffic presentation to be very reliable--I haven't found any discrepancies so far between what I'm seeing outside with what I'm seeing inside. On the weather (radar) I agree that the display could be less pixelated, but I'm assuming this will improve with time as bandwidth increases.

Anyway, hopefully this will give you reason for some optimism looking forward. Perhaps others will weigh in.
 
I've been flying with ADS-B in for about 2 years and with 'out' for the last year, I've had very few issues with the system that I'm aware of both here in TX and when traveling around the country.
Bottom line for me, I love it.
Equip:
GDL39 in
Trig TT31 with 696 for out (previous)
GTX23ES with G3X for out (current)
 
Here's an example: Just a typical flight here yesterday, from the coast up to Cotulla, TX and back. About a 2-hour round trip.

On departure, we had traffic immediately, and radar. All was well.

About 15 miles inland, my traffic went poof. It remained on our Nexus 7/GDL-39 for a bit longer, then it, too, went buh-bye. Radar remained, pretty much all the way to Cotulla. Traffic never returned.

On the return flight, I had no traffic or radar, even at 11,500', on either the GRT Horizon HXr or the tablet. As we approached the coastline, about 50 miles out radar returned. At about 30 miles out, traffic returned -- and there was gobs of it.

This happens on virtually every flight. The system is up, down, up, down -- and there is absolutely NO WAY to troubleshoot it, because the FAA does not report outages, or accept PIREPs about outages. If you read the posts on this topic over on Pilots of America (with a membership base orders of magnitude larger than VAF) you will see that this is pretty much the norm for most of us with ADS-B in/out.

In other words -- if you always have traffic and radar, you are the exception to the rule.
 
Looks like I am not alone with the intermittent type traffic. Weather has worked consistently for me without any issues but I often see traffic disappear for a period of time. What I don't understand is that some of the traffic in far distance (airliners) are still showing when the nearby traffic (GA) will disappear. I have both IN/OUT and my IN is dual frequency
 
Here's an example: Just a typical flight here yesterday, from the coast up to Cotulla, TX and back. About a 2-hour round trip.

On departure, we had traffic immediately, and radar. All was well.

About 15 miles inland, my traffic went poof. It remained on our Nexus 7/GDL-39 for a bit longer, then it, too, went buh-bye. Radar remained, pretty much all the way to Cotulla. Traffic never returned.

On the return flight, I had no traffic or radar, even at 11,500', on either the GRT Horizon HXr or the tablet. As we approached the coastline, about 50 miles out radar returned. At about 30 miles out, traffic returned -- and there was gobs of it.

This happens on virtually every flight. The system is up, down, up, down -- and there is absolutely NO WAY to troubleshoot it, because the FAA does not report outages, or accept PIREPs about outages. If you read the posts on this topic over on Pilots of America (with a membership base orders of magnitude larger than VAF) you will see that this is pretty much the norm for most of us with ADS-B in/out.

In other words -- if you always have traffic and radar, you are the exception to the rule.

You need a indicator on your efis or tablet that will tell you the status of the ads-b. Signal strength, and what data is available.

Not all controllers seem to be savvy to the ads-b world yet. I'm guessing that will take time. Or maybe they just don't have access to ads-b outages.
 
You need a indicator on your efis or tablet that will tell you the status of the ads-b. Signal strength, and what data is available.

Not all controllers seem to be savvy to the ads-b world yet. I'm guessing that will take time. Or maybe they just don't have access to ads-b outages.

There is no on-board indicator in the Horizon, except for how many ADS-B ground stations are being received. When it goes to "0", we have no idea why. And there are NO controllers "savvy" to the ADS-B world -- or at least I haven't found one yet who is.

Flight Service (remember them?) has been given responsibility for ADS-B. I spoke with a FSS briefer yesterday who had NO idea what I was talking about when I brought this up. They aren't ready, nor are they interested in being ready.

SO, where do we stand? We have the vague promise from the FAA of improvement (and we have indeed noted improvement along the coast). but there is no way to report outages, or receive word when they happen. We've got a system that is under construction completely without our input, and without the FAA communicating with us about problems.

To put this in simplest terms: When the number of stations received drops to "0", we need to know WHY. And right now, we don't.

Worse, when the system is complete, there is apparently no plan to put in place a system that will allow this sort of two-way cooperation. It's as if they expect the system to work 100% of the time with no failures -- and we all know that's absurd.

We've got six years for the FAA to figure this mess out. Right now, ADS-B either works, or it doesn't, and there's no explanation available from any source when it fails. And that sucks.
 
What I don't understand is that some of the traffic in far distance (airliners) are still showing when the nearby traffic (GA) will disappear. I have both IN/OUT and my IN is dual frequency

That's probably because the airliners are ADS-B out. You are receiving them directly. The rest of the traffic has to be uplinked through ground stations on TIS-B.

Are you sure your ADS-B out is configured correctly? You could be receiving TIS-B service only when someone else close by is transmitting ADS-B out.

jjhoneck said:
ADS-B is effed up at the base engineering level. The system should be transmitting position information in the clear continuously, not just when triggered by an ADS-B out transmitter.
One reason they only uplink traffic to out equipped aircraft is frequency congestion. If you retransmit everything from 1090 to 978, you defeat the purpose in having two frequencies. They could uplink nearby TIS-B traffic but without ADS-B out, how do they know what type of receiver you have? You also want to setup a system that has a predictable response. If everyone was out equipped and had dual band receivers, you wouldn't need ground stations for traffic.

loopfuzz said:
You need a indicator on your efis or tablet that will tell you the status of the ads-b. Signal strength, and what data is available.

The system does transmit status messages when individual products are not available, but I don't know of any software that actually displays that info.

Paige
 
Looks like I am not alone with the intermittent type traffic. Weather has worked consistently for me without any issues but I often see traffic disappear for a period of time. What I don't understand is that some of the traffic in far distance (airliners) are still showing when the nearby traffic (GA) will disappear. I have both IN/OUT and my IN is dual frequency

Your getting air to air data from those airliners.....
 
Like Walt mine works great locally and on trips. Flawless on the way to and from Osh this year.

The few issues I have had have been because of mis configuration or flying with a wingman that has his xponder on.

I have the GTX 23ES/GTN650 and GDL39 3D.

Maybe it has something to do with your reciever/antenna. I have an external Delta Pop antenna located far from my xponder antenna and never see fewer than 2 ground stations.
 
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I have a couple of issue with requiring ADS-B and non are technical.

First, the equipment is expensive and some guy with a $15,000 C150 isn't going to spend five to ten thousand dollars upfitting his or her plane. I guess the safety improvement is that they are no longer flying.

Second, as pointed out to me by a member here at OSH after he spoke to the FAA's ADS-B experts, there is "snitch" code in the FAA's software. They know if you have been naughty or nice. Buzz a runway, bust a class D, fly too close to another airplane and they literally have your number.

Now, you may say, "Good, get thise reckless pilots out of the air!" I've got news for you, it is almost impossible to fly in today's environment without busting some FAR. When the FAA starts busting pilots based on ADS-B, pilots will start taking action by turning off their transponders or entering a bogus code.

How does either of those things improve safety?
 
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First, the equipment is expensive and some guy with a $15,000 C150 isn't going to spend five to ten thousand dollars upfitting his or her plane. I guess the safety improvement is that they are no longer flying.

True, but he can still fly, just not in Bravo, Charlie, or above 10,000'.

there is "snitch" code in the FAA's software

There is also an anonymity feature available on UAT to address that concern.

Paige
 
Now, you may say, "Good, get thise reckless pilots out of the air!" I've got news for you, it is almost impossible to fly in today's environment without busting some FAR. When the FAA starts busting pilots based on ADS-B, pilots will start taking action by turning off their transponders or entering a bogus code.

You're staring down the barrel of aviation's red light cameras, Bill. It's been bothering me for years since ADS-B's announcement. A bogus code won't do you any good because your set-up includes entering the ship's N-number. From that the Feds dig into the data base to find the owner. You'd have to reconfigure in flight. Then you'll be hauled off for lying to the Feds.

I'm giving very strong consideration to never adopting ADS-B out, or at least leave it off except for the unusual need. The great majority of my flying, even back-and-forth across the USA, can avoid mandated airspace. The major inconvenience is the 10K MSL floor >2.5K AGL, easily exceeded by an RV and vitally useful for weather avoidance.

Now, I've been flying my -7 with ADS-B out for six months, but only recently found that my settings weren't correct and the installation wasn't "outing", but FIS and TIS were fine. This was discovered because I got curious why the uplink icon on the G3X/795/650/39 was nearly always X-d out. Our G3Xpert set me straight so now it works per the FAA's performance check website. BUT...from my cockpit vantage point I have no idea whether the system is broken or there's no traffic to report since the icon still often remains X-d, then flops good then back to X-d, even with continuous radar and ground station coverage. That is really poor engineering to have the same symbology for vastly different status. It may be strictly a Garmin presentation problem, but I suspect it's rooted in ADS design. G3Xpert Steve is doing data logging for purposes of chatting with the FAA about under what conditions ground stations will relay traffic. To a pilot, it all looks like intermittent ADS-B outages.

For those who see the icon lit continuously, like Brantel, I suspect it's because they operate where aircraft are thick as Minnesota mosquitos, a high likelihood of participating aircraft being in the service volume. Here in the mountain west...nada.

The really cute issue is that your mode C transponder isn't going away. Radar will always be running to back up... back up!...ADS, and work airlines TCAS, which they are not going to give up.

John Siebold
Boise, ID
 
For those who see the icon lit continuously, like Brantel, I suspect it's because they operate where aircraft are thick as Minnesota mosquitos, a high likelihood of participating aircraft being in the service volume. Here in the mountain west...nada.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

Would be a wrong suspicion... I have tested many times whether or not I am the one waking up the ground stations in my area. Typically if I turn off my "OUT", I will lose the TIS-B uplink icon shortly.

Also keep in mind that Garmin does not give you a green TIS-B uplink icon unless your address is being reported by the ground station as a client.
 
What is this UAT of which you speak?

There are 2 different kinds of ADS-B Out transmitters which you can install.

1) Mode-S / 1090ES Transponder, which transmits on 1090MHz and always transmits your unique 24-bit code number which is registered to your N-number. Even when squawking 1200, it still uniquely identifies your aircraft with that 24-bit code. If you're going to fly above 18000MSL then Mode-S/1090ES will be mandatory.

2) UAT, which transmits on 978MHz and has to "squawk" the same code as your Mode-C transponder. However when squawking 1200, a UAT is permitted to generate a random 24-bit identifier which still preserves some degree of anonymous VFR flying. The UAT will be good for satisfying the ADS-B Out requirements only for flights below 18000MSL... in other words, most of us.
 
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That's probably because the airliners are ADS-B out. You are receiving them directly. The rest of the traffic has to be uplinked through ground stations on TIS-B.

Are you sure your ADS-B out is configured correctly? You could be receiving TIS-B service only when someone else close by is transmitting ADS-B out.
Paige

To the best of my knowledge my system is working OK. A few weeks ago, there was a link published/shared here that would send you a report for the health of your system and mine was checked all good after a bit of adjustment that needed to make in my settings.

Furthermore, there are times that I see GA traffic in my display without any apparent airliner which presumably has the OUT system. The GA traffic drops for a short period of time only to get displayed a few minutes or so later. I have noticed this phenomena more in a certain location near my home airport but my ADS-B continues to report connecting to multiple stations.
 
Your getting air to air data from those airliners.....
It would have been very helpful if we could know/identify when FIS-B is not being received. And based on my experince, there is a good portion of time that I am not receiving it but those are also for a short duration and not completely "down" if that makes sense.
 
There are 2 different kinds of ADS-B Out transmitters which you can install.

2) UAT, which transmits on 978MHz and has to "squawk" the same code as your Mode-C transponder. However when squawking 1200, a UAT is permitted to generate a random 24-bit identifier which still preserves some degree of anonymous VFR flying. The UAT will be good for satisfying the ADS-B Out requirements only for flights below 1800MSL... in other words, most of us.

Neal,
Confirm you meant to say eighteen thousand feet, not eighteen hundred feet MSL.
 
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anomity

Ever since Mode S transponders (15+ yrs ago), the aircraft ID has been sent with the transponder replies. In the early days this was set by configuration jumpers, then by specialized programs to write to the memory, and today in most set up menus in software. The addition of ADS-B did nothing to change that, except that if you have an old Mode C transponder complying with ADS-B out either by transponder or UAT provides the aircraft ID. It is true that the UAT has the ability to be set up with an anomous ID, but that can only be used if you are not requesting ATC services. Could be useful for skirting airspace VFR.

If you are in ATC radar services for VFR airspace clearance, flight following or IFR purposes even with mode C your target info is tagged to include your registration number from your ATC contact ADS-B or not.

If you are worried about busting airspece VFR with no ATC contact and getting tagged for it, yeah, they can track you down if they choose to.

Living in the DC vicinity airspace the abiity for ATC to ID you when operating VFR outside the class B or TFR's makes you be more careful for sure.

BTW, at the FAA exhibit at Oshkosh, they demonstrated that they keep the track data. Had a couple of my previous flights pulled up on the screen and they have complete data tracks of the flights, except when I went below coverage. That data is not public and as I understand it not available to controllers. It is supposedly being used for techincal purposes in validating ADS-B. I'd like to see some formal policy saying the FAA can't use this data for anything other than validating ADS-B integrity and that it will never be publicly available. Sort of like your cell phone data that tracks you everywhere.

BTW, AC20-165A is now ccurrent.

SOAPBOX WARNING

Interesting that lots of the very same discussions were had some 40 years ago when Mode C transponders were mandated- no one can afford them, big brother tracking us and so on. And here we are today with most everyone, even those who don't have to have them, having transponders. It became the safe and sane thing to do, and yes transponder costs came down to about 25% of what they were when the rule first came out. Same with encoders, same with ELT's and same willl happen with ADS-B out.

We don't fly J3's or airplanes that rarely exceed 90 kts and 2500 ft much anymore. If we do, those airplanes will largely be exempted from aDS-B out. If we want to share the busier airspace we need to participate in a sane and safe way.

Will ADS-B ever replace Transponders and TCAS- that is the very long term plans that I have been privy to, but probably not in my flying life.

Flame away....
 
BTW, at the FAA exhibit at Oshkosh, they demonstrated that they keep the track data. Had a couple of my previous flights pulled up on the screen and they have complete data tracks of the flights, except when I went below coverage. That data is not public and as I understand it not available to controllers. It is supposedly being used for techincal purposes in validating ADS-B. I'd like to see some formal policy saying the FAA can't use this data for anything other than validating ADS-B integrity and that it will never be publicly available.

It's inevitably going to be used for collecting user fees.
 
You're staring down the barrel of aviation's red light cameras, Bill. It's been bothering me for years since ADS-B's announcement. A bogus code won't do you any good because your set-up includes entering the ship's N-number. From that the Feds dig into the data base to find the owner. You'd have to reconfigure in flight. Then you'll be hauled off for lying to the Feds.

I'm giving very strong consideration to never adopting ADS-B out, or at least leave it off except for the unusual need. The great majority of my flying, even back-and-forth across the USA, can avoid mandated airspace. The major inconvenience is the 10K MSL floor >2.5K AGL, easily exceeded by an RV and vitally useful for weather avoidance.

Now, I've been flying my -7 with ADS-B out for six months, but only recently found that my settings weren't correct and the installation wasn't "outing", but FIS and TIS were fine. This was discovered because I got curious why the uplink icon on the G3X/795/650/39 was nearly always X-d out. Our G3Xpert set me straight so now it works per the FAA's performance check website. BUT...from my cockpit vantage point I have no idea whether the system is broken or there's no traffic to report since the icon still often remains X-d, then flops good then back to X-d, even with continuous radar and ground station coverage. That is really poor engineering to have the same symbology for vastly different status. It may be strictly a Garmin presentation problem, but I suspect it's rooted in ADS design. G3Xpert Steve is doing data logging for purposes of chatting with the FAA about under what conditions ground stations will relay traffic. To a pilot, it all looks like intermittent ADS-B outages.

For those who see the icon lit continuously, like Brantel, I suspect it's because they operate where aircraft are thick as Minnesota mosquitos, a high likelihood of participating aircraft being in the service volume. Here in the mountain west...nada.

The really cute issue is that your mode C transponder isn't going away. Radar will always be running to back up... back up!...ADS, and work airlines TCAS, which they are not going to give up.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

A couple of things here. TCAS does not use ground radar in any way. It's a air to air function using transponders. The second point is the ground radar stations are going away. That's the whole point of ADSB is to eliminate that huge expense. Enroute radars will be the first to be shut down followed by approach radars at a later point.
George
 
A couple of things here. TCAS does not use ground radar in any way. It's a air to air function using transponders. The second point is the ground radar stations are going away. That's the whole point of ADSB is to eliminate that huge expense. Enroute radars will be the first to be shut down followed by approach radars at a later point.
George

As I see it, currently the transponder signal is the primary method ATC uses for traffic separation with raw radar as backup. Sometime after 2020, when radars are phased out, ADS-B will be primary with the transponder as backup. Hence the requirement of ADS-B wherever a transponder is currently required.

:cool:
 
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It's been a bit since I got a briefing on the long term plans. I believe in the enroute arena if ADSB ground stations failed the backup for airliners would be to maintain spacing with the air to air mode. Testing is underway over the Atlantic on a system doing exactly that. I flew a aircraft configured for testing and it was a great display. I suspect getting rid of the enroute radars will be easy. Getting rid of approach radars will be a bigger task.
 
It's the money!

A couple of things here. TCAS does not use ground radar in any way. It's a air to air function using transponders. The second point is the ground radar stations are going away. That's the whole point of ADSB is to eliminate that huge expense. Enroute radars will be the first to be shut down followed by approach radars at a later point.
George

This is exactly right. The FAA wants to cut costs (so they can spend it somewhere else), and owners are being asked to pay for the FAA's savings.
 
There are 2 different kinds of ADS-B Out transmitters which you can install.

1) Mode-S / 1090ES Transponder, which transmits on 1090MHz and always transmits your unique 24-bit code number which is registered to your N-number. Even when squawking 1200, it still uniquely identifies your aircraft with that 24-bit code. If you're going to fly above 18000MSL then Mode-S/1090ES will be mandatory. <snip>

Isn't the GTX23ES a 1090ES transponder? Doesn't that mean no pilot option and even 1200 is sending all core information including N number etc?
 
USER FEES!!!! Any pilot can already get weather and traffic with existing equipment. The only thing ADS-B will do is allow the feds to track our plane anytime, everywhere. San Francisco is already doing a pilot program with GPS tracking in cars, their goal is to mandate all CA vehicles to have this GPS tracking system installed to charge us USER FEES anytime the vehicle is on the road.
 
Like Walt mine works great locally and on trips. Flawless on the way to and from Osh this year.

The few issues I have had have been because of mis configuration or flying with a wingman that has his xponder on.

I have the GTX 23ES/GTN650 and GDL39 3D.

Maybe it has something to do with your reciever/antenna. I have an external Delta Pop antenna located far from my xponder antenna and never see fewer than 2 ground stations.

We have dual external antennas for the Skyradar (that is connected directly to the GRT Horizon HXr via USB, and an internal antenna on our GDL-39, connected via Bluetooth to the Nexus 7.

The system is up/down/up/down, especially on the coast. Tonight we had no traffic displayed on EITHER system.
 
Furthermore, there are times that I see GA traffic in my display without any apparent airliner which presumably has the OUT system. The GA traffic drops for a short period of time only to get displayed a few minutes or so later. I have noticed this phenomena more in a certain location near my home airport but my ADS-B continues to report connecting to multiple stations.

This is EXACTLY what we see, all the time. And it's exactly why I am growing so frustrated with this overpriced toy.

Grrr. We are promised improvement to a system in which we have no input, and the controlling agency doesn't report outages, or even know about outages themselves. BRILLIANT plan.
 
We have dual external antennas for the Skyradar (that is connected directly to the GRT Horizon HXr via USB, and an internal antenna on our GDL-39, connected via Bluetooth to the Nexus 7.

The system is up/down/up/down, especially on the coast. Tonight we had no traffic displayed on EITHER system.

With this info, at least we know that it is not equipment related if the behavior is the same on two different type receivers.
 
i have always been critical of the basic concept of ADS-B...

and that "removing-radars" thing is a wet dream of some engineers and bean counters in my opinion.

no wonder my u.s. colleagues seem not to be any more "into it" than we are. and seem not to care, really ;-) and ads-b-in imho was mainly done to "sweeten the deal" to equip. other than being free, does anyone believe the service is better quality wise than e.g. xm weather? (less the traffic data obviously)

ads-b is great for remote areas like alaska and may allow to save a radar or two somewhere in the outback. but as soon as you are getting into reasonably dense areas and especially into the vicinity of large airports, the 3nm radar separation (or possibly mulitlateration) standard is going to be here for a long time yet.

also, ads-b has many serious security flaws (specs stem from pre-9/11).
spooffing (creating false targets), gps jamming or tweaking (invalidating positions of true targets) etc... way way worse than with radar, especially when multi-radar tracking is done. or anyone truly believe AF1 will ever be cooperative?! it shouldn't be, feel free to add all other "sensitive flights" and therewith fails the concept.
heck, taxi drivers have been caught trying to cheat the taxi fare dispatch system by interrupting satellite navigation system signals to disguise location and pick up extra jobs!!! ooops, it could be as simple/stupid a reason as that.

that being said, mode-s/1090-ES is a good development as it helps to relief the high frequency load of radar in densely flown areas and also assists tcas (handshake/coordinated RA's) and other safety nets based on DAP (downlinked aircraft parameters) such as selected altitude.

interesting to read first hand experiences,

regards, bernie
 
This is EXACTLY what we see, all the time. And it's exactly why I am growing so frustrated with this overpriced toy.

Grrr. We are promised improvement to a system in which we have no input, and the controlling agency doesn't report outages, or even know about outages themselves. BRILLIANT plan.

Keep in mind that ATC is not using the system yet. Once they transition to ADSB I think you can plan on outages being reported almost instantly. Even in its current form it's a great safety tool.
 
This is EXACTLY what we see, all the time. And it's exactly why I am growing so frustrated with this overpriced toy.

Grrr. We are promised improvement to a system in which we have no input, and the controlling agency doesn't report outages, or even know about outages themselves. BRILLIANT plan.

Respectfully I disagree with you here Jay. You and I have worked closely to get your system working and I know you're frustrated. However, you were the first one to respond to Jim from the FAA when he CAME TO US on his own a few months back, so you know at least one person is there to help.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=113529

ADS-B is a big system and it's new technology. I feel that the FAA is doing something right by letting us all help work out the bugs, giving us free data in return for participating, and giving us all time to update our equipment. There is no reason to expect the FAA to issue NOTAMs for experimental equipment before most controllers even use it.

Frankly, with the hare-brained stuff the feds have been coming up with lately, I'm surprised and grateful that they didn't just wait til 2019 and say "HEY, by the way, y'all need this equipment in 6 months, and if you don't like it, tough beans." (It's obvious that the task of installing equipment in thousands of airplanes cannot happen overnight, but still-- they could have made this much harder for us.) If you feel that you cannot fly safely without 100% reliable traffic and weather, then I would suggest you use TIS traffic off your Mode S Trig and get an XM subscription until ADS-B is more mature.
 
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I do think what many consider outages are not complete outages. It's a problem with cockpit display, service volume, and other issues that combine to drive us nuts.

Get a performance report from the FAA. Likely you'll find your ADS-B is working fine (if you occasionally receive an uplink) and you are being watched. Second by second. The point I hoped to get across earlier is the same icon is used for no uplink and not working. From a pilot's perspective such opposite meanings from the same indication are poor engineering. The "no uplink" could just as easily be "no traffic" to report per the designed service volume.

I don't like this nutty system. It's nearly impossible to explain to a newbie, and so complex that many instructional sessions over time are required to get a good grasp of how it works...or does it?

John Siebold
 
With this info, at least we know that it is not equipment related if the behavior is the same on two different type receivers.

Not really, maybe something on his plane is generating interference. I'd blame ADSB only if another pilot flying nearby at the same time reports the same problems.
 
Not really, maybe something on his plane is generating interference. I'd blame ADSB only if another pilot flying nearby at the same time reports the same problems.

Fair assessments, I just need to find another person with ADS-B in my area to test the system :)

On other notes and complains about ADS-B in its current stage, I wonder if any other technology, including radar, worked as perfectly from day one?

We just came back from a trip from MT and had FREE weather all the time and traffic most of the time and I was very happy about having those on board. XM weather was just too costly for me to keep
 
I have a Skyradar dual input system (no ADS-B out) that I view on an IPAD running Wing X. I've never tried the viewing program that comes with the Skyradar and might just do that for grins to see if results vary but.

I seem to get traffic fairly well IF I'm around someone that is triggering the broadcast. But I was flying just south of RIchmond, VA the other day (talking to ATC) and a Southwest Jet passed right under me (no factor ATC didn't even call it) but I looked at the screen and saw nothing. Now if I understand how this is supposed to work their is no way I should not have seen that target. So something wasn't working.

Other anecdote is the FIS Broadcast seems iffy in content. I get weather radar display fairly consistently but have yet to have a METAR update. I assume same for Terminal FC as well but never actually looked.

So the bugs them seem to be quite active. Hard to see how ATC can think about going to this as primary unless a heck of a lot more maturity happens in the system.

Thinking I'll wait to buy out capability for awhile. Flying near DC I won't be able to get by without it but not impressed with overall system reliability yet.

I worry about traffic congestion on the data links once everybody is on it. Need to read more on the architecture and how they manage that. Kinda like the early days of ethernet?
 
USER FEES!!!! Any pilot can already get weather and traffic with existing equipment. The only thing ADS-B will do is allow the feds to track our plane anytime, everywhere. San Francisco is already doing a pilot program with GPS tracking in cars, their goal is to mandate all CA vehicles to have this GPS tracking system installed to charge us USER FEES anytime the vehicle is on the road.

That may turn out to be a very valid point.

Trying to reduce the paranoia here...as cars get much better gas mileage, and electric cars don't use any gas, and the Federal tax per gallon hasn't increased in 20 years, our highways are getting a lot less money for maintenance. SOMEBODY has to pay for maintenance other than more borrowing, so tax per mile traveled is one idea that would be relatively fair (the more you use the highways and roads, the more you pay for them).

As for user fees via ADSB, it's hardly inevitable. I don't ADSB makes user fees more or less likely, that's a political issue that will be decided on politics, not technical ability.
 
If you are going to use ADS-B right now understand this simple fact: ADS-B is not operational yet.

:cool:
 
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Trying to reduce the paranoia here...as cars get much better gas mileage, and electric cars don't use any gas, and the Federal tax per gallon hasn't increased in 20 years, our highways are getting a lot less money for maintenance. SOMEBODY has to pay for maintenance other than more borrowing, so tax per mile traveled is one idea that would be relatively fair (the more you use the highways and roads, the more you pay for them).

As for user fees via ADSB, it's hardly inevitable. I don't ADSB makes user fees more or less likely, that's a political issue that will be decided on politics, not technical ability.


I'm not quite sure how Auto efficiency has anything to do with Aviation efficiency, or electric cars, but aircraft engines have remained unchanged (for the most part) since their design. All that has changed in 50 years is the price of fuel, not how much the aviation engine burns. It's only gone up, along with the taxes added to it. Federal, state, county and city taxes have gone up. Hangar rent has gone up, property tax has gone up. Etc, etc.

All that being said, ADS-B is the perfect tool for the feds to track everywhere we go, everywhere we land, our speeds, the airspace we fly in, any FAA violations they see fit to fine us for ( ever seen a red light camera? ).

I'm not at all paranoid, I just see the writing on the wall. When a piece of mandatory avionics that cost more to buy and install in an aircraft that is worth less then this FAA mandated avionics itself... Something don't pass the smell test. How many planes will be grounded or will not be able to fly in ADS-B mandatory areas? Funny how the FAA recently made all aircraft a 5 year mandatory registration. In their own words they said they need to know where ALL the aircraft are. Really??? After 100 years of aviation, now the feds need to know where all the aircraft are?? They just need to know where to send the bill.

Flying is already very expensive with 6 dollar + fuel, insurance, hangar rent, parts & maintenance, medicals, etc... Now mandatory expensive avionics and possible user fees added to this?? Even Stevie Wonder can see this coming. Hopefully ADS-B will be lobbied out like the 406 ELT.
 
On the brighter side... I personally love having weather and traffic on board, I can't imagine flying without them now and I definately feel it adds a level of safety to my flying that I didn't have before (there is so much traffic in the DFW area that you don't see it would amaze you). I can't tell you how many times I have changed course/altitude to avoid a traffic conflict only to actually see the aircraft at the last second, pretty hard to see and avoid most GA aircraft when the closure rate can easily exceed 300K.

You can now purchase an all in one ADS-B IN/OUT box for under 4K (plus install for the certified folks), I'm not aware of too many planes that are not worth that.

As Stein would say, just my 2c
 
...and electric cars don't use any gas, ...

Correction, they are coal fired cars. That electricity has to come from some place and don't even suggest one of the bird killing renewable sources because we still need a backup source for when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine. Oh wait, we have natural gas. Great idea! Let's frack some more of that out of the ground! ;)
 
Correction, they are coal fired cars. That electricity has to come from some place and don't even suggest one of the bird killing renewable sources because we still need a backup source for when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine. Oh wait, we have natural gas. Great idea! Let's frack some more of that out of the ground! ;)

You're beating down the wrong path. We need to start cracking more atoms. Seriously.


But back on subject, ADS-B wouldn't be nearly so bad if the feds weren't eventually requiring a TSO'd GPS source. I submit that, for light aircraft operating VFR, a non-TSO WAAS unit should be sufficient, and still more accurate/reliable than the current transponder system. I haven't flown with it much, but having the weather is simply amazing. The traffic is nice as a supplement, as long as you keep in mind that it isn't catching every aircraft.
 
Christer (Stein's avionics manager) opined to me at OSH that he sees one of two possible paths out of the mandated dollar pit, one being allowing non-certified GPS sources for ADS-B position reference. That certainly conforms to our experimental's ability to use non-certified avionics to fly precision approaches. I'd sure embrace it instead of installing a $10K GTN. Somehow, though, I can't imagine the FAA doing anything sensible.; more likely lurch the opposite direction and decree all avionics must be TSO certified.

I see occasional soothing words that implementation of ADS-B is no worse than Mode C or S imposed on aviation, and we're overreacting. I'm sorry, but since those rose-colored-glasses days, the federal government has become terribly intrusive into all aspects of our daily lives. The climate has changed to surveillance, not safety, and we rightly respond with fear. The Feds aren't here to help.

John Siebold
 
Keep in mind that the requirement for TSO'd GPS source is for separation with other aircraft. Just because you are experimental and VFR does not mean that the airliner full of people is not depending on you to have a accurate position source. I too wish there was a cheaper way to do this but if there was no requirement for accuracy then people would be using their car GPS (with internal antenna) as a position source. (and no raim reporting)
 
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