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RV10 Lycoming Exp/Thunderbolt 540 pre-order options

cactusman

Well Known Member
Thinking hard on pulling the trigger on a pre-order to try and beat the price increase (prob one of many more)....fuel and ignition options driving me a little crazy - then you get into cowlings, cold air, SDS vs EFII and its all making me a little dizzy. Back in the days of 2-3% annual price increases I wouldn't normally be stressing out about this, but as we all know it's getting a little sporty out there. Can't be the only one - what's everyone thinking?

Here are the options - thru Vans -

540 Standard Exp Lycoming -

Dual Standard Magnetos - $55,879
Dual Lycoming EIS - $57,879

(No P-Mag option for 540)

Price for dual pulley seems same as single - considering a/c system - any disadvantage to this if you don't use it?

Lycoming Thunderbolt -

No Fuel/No Ignition - $56,879
Dual Lycoming EIS/AVSTAR - $61,879
Dual Lycoming EIS/Airflow Performance - $61,879

Then we get into SDS vs EFII....my inclination is to pre-order a "naked" thunderbolt 540 and go with SDS or EFII subject to additional research...

Welcome thoughts on the matter from similarly situated folks...

Then we get into bundling the prop order. Seems like its a 2-blade metal for $9500 just to get the ball rolling and preserve pricing at pre-2023/4 levels.
 
I ordered my IO-540 from Thunderbolt ~10 months ago. I expect shipping next September.

On this engine order I specified:
- Normal piston compression (8.5). If you want higher Thunderbolt will do that. A lot of people bump up to 9.0. I left it at 8.5 to allow for use of 94UL avgas or 93 UL ethanol free pump gas. I fear the new 100UL avgas will be priced up in the stratosphere.
- Cold Air Sump. This option is a little pricey but I wanted it. Note - if you do this you are on your own to modify the stock cowl for engine air. I’m going to use the new version of the James cowl for this setup. The other option is the Show Planes cowl.
- AirFlow Performance injection. After recently replacing the AVSTAR system with the AFP on my flying RV-8 I’m convinced it is a much better option.
- I’ll install dual six cylinder pMags. I’ve been flying with them for ~18 years and one has been flying on my old RV-10 for a couple of years now providing a significant gain in cruise fuel efficiency. I’m hopeful Thunderbolt will complete testing of this ignition and soon offer it on new engines, like is done with the four cylinder engines.
- I don’t put AC in my planes so cannot comment on the dual pulley deal.

I suggest you contact Jeff Schans Thunderbolt to get other suggestions such a paint colors.

Carl
 
I ordered my IO-540 from Thunderbolt ~10 months ago. I expect shipping next September.

On this engine order I specified:
- Normal piston compression (8.5). If you want higher Thunderbolt will do that. A lot of people bump up to 9.0. I left it at 8.5 to allow for use of 94UL avgas or 93 UL ethanol free pump gas. I fear the new 100UL avgas will be priced up in the stratosphere.
- Cold Air Sump. This option is a little pricey but I wanted it. Note - if you do this you are on your own to modify the stock cowl for engine air. I’m going to use the new version of the James cowl for this setup. The other option is the Show Planes cowl.
- AirFlow Performance injection. After recently replacing the AVSTAR system with the AFP on my flying RV-8 I’m convinced it is a much better option.
- I’ll install dual six cylinder pMags. I’ve been flying with them for ~18 years and one has been flying on my old RV-10 for a couple of years now providing a significant gain in cruise fuel efficiency. I’m hopeful Thunderbolt will complete testing of this ignition and soon offer it on new engines, like is done with the four cylinder engines.
- I don’t put AC in my planes so cannot comment on the dual pulley deal.

I suggest you contact Jeff Schans Thunderbolt to get other suggestions such a paint colors.

Carl


Thanks Carl - do you have an email or ph for Jeff?
 
Barrett?

I’m just curious if anyone has gotten a quote from Barrett recently? Have their prices for rebuilds gone up proportionally? It sure is nice to have it built the way you want it and not have to worry about limited Thunderbolt options.
 
Jeff at Lycoming Thunderbolt is great to work with. Just FYI if you order the dual pulley option from Lycoming this will not work with the EFII system. EFII needs a specific dual pulley to mount their sensors in.
 
Jeff Schans at Thunderbolt is quite familiar with what can be deleted when fitting SDS EFI.

From our website: "When replacing legacy mechanical injection, carbs or mags with EFI/EI, you may want to delete items no longer required. Thunderbolt and certain engine builders will delete these items and take them off the price of a new build. Below is a list of parts not required when fitting SDS EFI:"

1. Mags, ignition harness, spark plugs
2. Servo, flow divider, lines, injectors
3. Carb
4. Fuel pump and pushrod
5. Flywheel. (Note that new Lycoming flywheels may lack the 12 tooling holes which we use to mount the magnet drilling block to).

As far as the dual groove Lycoming flywheels for use with A/C, these may lack sufficient wall thickness to install our trigger magnets and set screws. There are at least 2 PNs and we know it won't work on one of them for sure.

Most folks using SDS and wanting a/c have gone with Airflow Systems a/c which uses a V belt for the alternator and a serpentine belt for the a/c compressor. We have a special drilling jig for these and instructions on how to dress the holes afterwards.

For reference, we require a minimum of .450 wall thickness at .450 aft of the aft ring gear mounting surface for the magnets.

Ly-Con and Aero Sport have the most experience in working with SDS. As far as I know, Thunderbolt runs in your engine in with conventional fuel and spark systems and ships the engine bare for you to install the EFI bits. The other two will install and run with the EFI.
 
I am in the same place trying to make a decision on ordering the IO 540 before the price hike. Being a first-time builder the choices are a bit overwhelming.

Is the only way to have PMag with thunderbolt is to replace it ourselves after Lycoming supplies the engine with their EIS?

I saw that emagair.com has posted Jeff's contact info under OEM options.
 
SNIP
Is the only way to have PMag with thunderbolt is to replace it ourselves after Lycoming supplies the engine with their EIS? SNIP

No - you can order the engine with no ignition system and get a credit for the mags you did not receive. The engine will be test run using shop mags. The mag case holes will be covered for shipment. This was the way on four cylinder engines before Thunderbolt completed its evaluation of pMags. As those engines can be ordered with pMags, I'm hopeful by the time my engine is shipped I'll get the pMag from Thunderbolt. Either way ending up with pMags is not hard.

Carl
 
If it was mine I’d opt for high compression, mags, AFP injection.
(The same things I did on my new 370 a few years ago).
Runs like a scalded dog :D
 
AeroSport Power

I had full intentions of installing a Thunderbolt engine, but when I got ready, lead times had grown too long for my wait. So, I ordered mine from Aerosport Power. I have been VERY pleased with them!!! Customer support is TOP NOTCH!! Engine runs great and burns a quart about every 15-20 hours. They can customize as much as you want. I highly recommend them if you want another alternative. https://www.aerosportpower.com/
 
Mine is configured as follows;

Airflow Performance injection
Run with shop mags and shipped with plastic covers. I added SDS CPI2 with no significant issues.
Chrome valve covers
Red paint.
8.5 compression

I was able to visit the factory for my build and watch the whole thing. Very cool. Jeff is great to work with. Jeff will work with you on any details/adjustments as you approach the build date. Order up your best guess and then talk it through with Jeff as the build approaches.

A very smooth engine, now with 225 hours on it.

Highly recommended.
 
Heads-up

We'll publish more details as soon as we have them, but since we have some info available and people are currently making decisions:

We want to provide a heads up on a few things that - in addition to the engine price increases - will be changing in terms of Thunderbolt custom engine orders from Lycoming. These are Lycoming's changes, which will take place at the same time as the price increases, and we are just passing the manufacturer's info along (these are not set by Van's).

"Standard" options for Thunderbolt engines:

  • You'll be able to choose custom color options, same as you can now (single- and two-tone standard colors, or single- or two-tone custom colors).
  • Polished cylinder fins will be a (rather pricey) option.

The following customized Thunderbolt engine options will - after the price change take place - result in an engine customization fee (TBD but it will be at least $1000, charged once per engine regardless of how many of the below are applied) plus the cost of the upgrade(s). All of the below items fall into that category:

  • Custom compression ratios
  • Chome pushrod tubes
  • Cold air induction (540 engines)
  • Aerobatic kit (inverted oil)
  • Starter ring gear removal

Working on the final numbers and will be able to publish soon.
 
We'll publish more details as soon as we have them, but since we have some info available and people are currently making decisions:

We want to provide a heads up on a few things that - in addition to the engine price increases - will be changing in terms of Thunderbolt custom engine orders from Lycoming. These are Lycoming's changes, which will take place at the same time as the price increases, and we are just passing the manufacturer's info along (these are not set by Van's).

"Standard" options for Thunderbolt engines:

  • You'll be able to choose custom color options, same as you can now (single- and two-tone standard colors, or single- or two-tone custom colors).
  • Polished cylinder fins will be a (rather pricey) option.

The following customized Thunderbolt engine options will - after the price change take place - result in an engine customization fee (TBD but it will be at least $1000, charged once per engine regardless of how many of the below are applied) plus the cost of the upgrade(s). All of the below items fall into that category:

  • Custom compression ratios
  • Chome pushrod tubes
  • Cold air induction (540 engines)
  • Aerobatic kit (inverted oil)
  • Starter ring gear removal

Working on the final numbers and will be able to publish soon.

Thx Greg (and all for comments and suggestions) - just pulled the TB trigger today. Gets me in what ever the long line is.

Curious as to what the "standard" compression is for the Lycoming 540 - I asked for 9:1 based on the info I had from SDS and EFII to run all fuel types. But I don't see any info on what the standard TB compression build is?

Also why would you ask for the starter ring gear removal?
 
Last edited:
Sounds like several of you had the same kind of day I had. A bit stressed trying to determine my options.
I ended up selecting a Thunderbolt with the option showing no mags or EFI, but requested in the notes to have it configured with Airflow Performance fuel injection. I am leaning to dual P-Mags, though one of my advisors, a RV expert, is advising one P-Mag and one legacy mag. I plan to visit all the suppliers at SunNFun to learn more before I make a final decision.
I would be very interested in your experiences with the various systems as well as your philosophy on dual electronic vs one of each. Two standard mags is not really under consideration at this time.
 
SNIP

Curious as to what the "standard" compression is for the Lycoming 540 - I asked for 9:1 based on the info I had from SDS and EFII to run all fuel types. But I don't see any info on what the standard TB compression build is? SNIP
In most cases 9:1 pistons will limit you to 100LL or 100UL (whatever that may be). The standard 8.5 pistons can run 93 or 94UL fuel.

Carl
 
Deletion of the "ring gear" is really deletion of the flywheel or what Lycoming calls the Ring Gear Support. This would be done when planning to use SDS EFI or ignitions as many of the later Lyc flywheels lack the 12 tooling holes required to drill it for our magnets.

You can get an earlier factory flywheel (used usually) or order one of our billet ones which already has the magnets mounted.

As far as CR goes. Several SDS customers are running 91 Mogas with 8.5 CR with no issues. We simply retard timing slightly at high MAP. At lower MAP, generally full timing can be run so it doesn't impact performance at altitude much if any.

Jeff at Thunderbolt has always been good to work with and customers have been very happy with his support as well, from feedback we receive.
 
Deletion of the "ring gear" is really deletion of the flywheel or what Lycoming calls the Ring Gear Support. This would be done when planning to use SDS EFI or ignitions as many of the later Lyc flywheels lack the 12 tooling holes required to drill it for our magnets.

You can get an earlier factory flywheel (used usually) or order one of our billet ones which already has the magnets mounted.

As far as CR goes. Several SDS customers are running 91 Mogas with 8.5 CR with no issues. We simply retard timing slightly at high MAP. At lower MAP, generally full timing can be run so it doesn't impact performance at altitude much if any.

Jeff at Thunderbolt has always been good to work with and customers have been very happy with his support as well, from feedback we receive.

Thanks Ross - So reviewing my info 93 Octane seems to be the min for 9:1... or 8.5:1 gets you ok with 91 Premium Mogas. I might have to mod my order.

Anyone know what the "standard" Thunderbolt compression build is?
 
Maybe Titan will get back in the IO_540 business.

They built the engine for my 10 and Shipped it to me without mags, fuel pumps and fuel injection items and I installed SDS dual system. I have stock 8.5:1 pistons and run 93 octane with ethanol (yes , with ethanol).

I have about 240 hours on the setup and am super pleased with the performance. I do retard timing back at high power settings. Typically get about 160 _ 165 knots TAS at 10.4 gph
 
The past few days have been stressful trying to select the engine and options. I placed an order with Vans for Thunderbolt with standard compression, Dual Lycoming EIS, and Airflow Performance fuel injection. I am leaning towards dual P-Mags in place of Lycoming EIS, and cold air sump but I will make those choices as the days get closer after discussing with Jeff Schans at Thunderbolt.
Thanks to my advisers for educating me on the options and helping me make the decision.
 
I ordered my Thunderbolt last week. I just ordered it with no mags and no fuel system to lock in the price. Van's told me that Lycoming would contact me later to determine options.
 
I too am interested in the hp ratings when changing compression ratios or adding a cold air intake and of course EFI
and EI. If a bone stock 540 is 260 and this is what Vans specifies, why the desire to bump the hp? I get the efficiency and tech angle but other than climbing like a raped ape, what are the advantages? Higher cruise? Fuel burn will increase. How about TBO? Bumping the motor with hc pistons, EFI and EI, cold air intake probably gets you close to 320-330?? Is this still a 2000 hour engine? Just trying to gather information as I am unfortunately still about 2 years away from needing to order one (3-½ from needing one)
 
And probably but the correct thread but has anyone heard if there is any progress on a compression ignition option for the 10? I’m sure fuel prices will subside one way or another but right now and for the immediate future, I can’t even imagine what avgas is going to cost. A diesel maybe a way to future proof your plane.
 
And probably but the correct thread but has anyone heard if there is any progress on a compression ignition option for the 10? I’m sure fuel prices will subside one way or another but right now and for the immediate future, I can’t even imagine what avgas is going to cost. A diesel maybe a way to future proof your plane.

Until the price of CI aero engines drop into a similar realm as that of a 540 or Jet A prices drop a lot lower than Avgas, it doesn't make sense in North America at this time. There isn't a proven, suitable one that's presently available for a -10 at this time either.
 
I too am interested in the hp ratings when changing compression ratios or adding a cold air intake and of course EFI
and EI. If a bone stock 540 is 260 and this is what Vans specifies, why the desire to bump the hp? I get the efficiency and tech angle but other than climbing like a raped ape, what are the advantages? Higher cruise? Fuel burn will increase. How about TBO? Bumping the motor with hc pistons, EFI and EI, cold air intake probably gets you close to 320-330?? Is this still a 2000 hour engine? Just trying to gather information as I am unfortunately still about 2 years away from needing to order one (3-½ from needing one)

https://www.kitplanes.com/efficient-engines/

Here's a decent article that shakes out a bunch of the more common efficiency mods. For instance, it quotes an increase of 6-8 hp when going from 8.5 to 9.0 compression ratio with no effect on TBO or ability to run lower octane fuel. Pretty much free hp.

I believe the best way to think about these mods is in efficiency, not hp. Sure, this stuff will give you more hp for takeoff and climb but who really needs to "rape that ape". You've got plenty already. Instead, consider that with a more efficient engine, you'll be getting more "mileage" out of your fuel. At a given fuel flow you'll be going faster than if you didn't have the mods. Or, you can power back (if you're into that) and use less fuel to go just as fast as stock. My Barrett built IO540 with EFII ignition & injection, 9-1 compression, and cold air induction recently gave me 166 TAS, 8.9 GPH at 17,500', 50 degrees lean of peak. By the way, Barrett said it showed 288 hp on the dyno stand but they also said that their calculations are pretty unreliable so they don't put too much emphasis on that number. In any case, I think you'd be hard pressed to get a IO540 north of 300hp without trying really hard.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm in this RV-10 for the long haul (lol). I plan on having it for a long time and I plan to use it for long cross country flights so efficiency is important to me. I flew 125 hours last year and if I saved 1-1.5 gph per hour (a quoted estimate) then I saved $700-$1000. Over time, that's going to add up.

Hope my 2 cents help.
 
Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. This is exactly what I’m looking for and am in total agreement. Efficiency, ease of operation and reliability are my only goals. If that can be achieved via EFII, a mild bump in compression, intake and exhaust enhancements are the way to go.
 
Hello All:

I have ordered my Thunderbolt IO540 just after Christmas this year. Lead time is 24 months so I have some time. I have a couple questions.

I went with AFP, EIS, standard compression so I can use 94UL, and I went with 2 tone paint scheme.

Does my TB require fuel return lines because I ordered fuel bungs from flyefii. I just wanted to know.

Any links or assistance to knowing what I will need additional to the engine be greatly be appreciated.
 
Fuel return lines

EFII and SDS require fuel return lines. Order your Andair duplex FS2020 fuel selector valve with AN6 90’s early as Andair can take up to 9 months to send you the valve. You’ll probably also need a valve extension from Andair.
 
Yes I was told about lead times. Things are crazy now post COVID:-( The website is saying up to 200hp for the FS2020 selector?? Is the electronic version any better than the manual selector?
 
FS2020

The electric version of the FS2020 from what I know has the same plumbing. I looked at getting it but decided I’d hate to have a failure and not be able to switch tanks or worse stick in between the switchover some way ??

If they would have had it 4 years ago when I ordered my valve for the 10 the 2520 with AN8 inlets I would have considered that. I’ve worked on a Cirrus that used this and looked nice. It also used banjo fittings in the supply line. I’m not sure if that was part of the reason to use AN8 lines. I would not have used banjo fittings in the supply side. Pressure drop is fairly large. Going to AN8 supply lines you will find like all “neat” ideas adds considerable time to the project. One offs are a real time suck.
 
Hello All:

I have ordered my Thunderbolt IO540 just after Christmas this year. Lead time is 24 months so I have some time. I have a couple questions.

I went with AFP, EIS, standard compression so I can use 94UL, and I went with 2 tone paint scheme.

Does my TB require fuel return lines because I ordered fuel bungs from flyefii. I just wanted to know.

Any links or assistance to knowing what I will need additional to the engine be greatly be appreciated.

Standard fuel injection does not require return lines. Did you not install them when you built your ER tanks?
 
Yes I was told about lead times. Things are crazy now post COVID:-( The website is saying up to 200hp for the FS2020 selector?? Is the electronic version any better than the manual selector?
Ignore the 200hp limit. You can get some 80 gph through, more than enough.
 
Standard fuel injection does not require return lines. Did you not install them when you built your ER tanks?
Some people install a purge valve to make hot starts easier. In that case, you would need one return port with the stock injection (and the standard single lane valve).
 
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