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Pricing a second-hand RV kit

C

caissyd

I'm New Here
Hi everyone,

I was wondering how much a second-hand RV kit is worth compared to buying it from Van's. For example, imagine someone is selling a 10-year old RV-7A kit, with the empennage and wings well advanced (85% done) and the fuselage at the canoe stage.

To simplify the discussion, assume you get the kit inspected by an expert and it is deemed to be in very good condition, that you can easily go pick it up (no shipping or duty to pay) and that you still have at least 51% to do:

1) Does the current build stage (labour) adds to the value of the kit vs getting all the parts directly from Van's?

2) Would you consider 2011 or 2021 for pricing? Kits are obviously more expensive now than they were 10 years ago.

3) What would be a fair price for it? Why not more or less?

Thanks in advance!
 
I did this

Hi Caissy,
I did this. Except it was an RV-7 and not the A. To answer your questions.
1) Let him/her make the price first.
2) I'd pay the same as it would've cost you to buy the unbuilt kit directly from Van's at current pricing.
3) Remember you still have to deal with unknown variables, like mistakes he could've made in the build. Even the pre-buy might not pick up on some of the issues. I certainly had some surprises.
4) Also, it is expensive and a lot of hassle getting a partially built kit crated and transported to you. More so than if you had to get it direct from Van's.
5) Most sellers will price their kit according to the above in any case.

Lastly, the seller usually just wants to get out of it without loosing any $'s. This means money out of pocket. Not trying to make any profit. The buyer wants a reasonable bargain, which means getting the labor for free.

Hope this helps.
Martin
 
The market repeatedly demonstrates that unfinished kits/planes are worth less than what the builder has invested in them.

I understand that the builder associates some value with his efforts and for the lead time, etc, but I rarely see that realized. There is often little to no value in the labor in a finished plane, why would there be in a partially built one?

I would not want a partially built kit. Chances are that if the original builder has given up on it, that their work may have suffered along with their interest in it. Not always, obviously, but it would be a fear of mine.
 
Is the kit complete?
What did they pay? (prices have gone up, if they have older kit they may just want what they paid)
Inventory it and check for damage.

Work? I sold my first RV4 I finished after flying it 900 hours. I got RICH! Well rich if $5/hour for my labor is getting rich. I did not lose money but my labor was cheap. My plane won a workmanship award at Arlington EAA convention and came in 2nd in Spruce Copperstate Dash race. So it was nice. If the sellers work is excellent you might pay a small premium. If the amount of work is QB level or beyond, expect to pay more, QB price. If they want too much walk away. You can buy kits from Van.

Is the engine, prop hung? Panel wired and in? Now we are getting into an area where careful valuation and inspection is needed. Even if not installed, the kit may have a bunch of parts. You may negotiate that separate, pass or pick it up cheap? Some may want to sell it all as a package. This may be a good deal. If there are items you don't want you can sell them to recoup cost.

Last pride in building ALL OF IT.... It is likely you will still qualify in FAA eye's as builder if you buy a kit partially built. This is important to get the Repairman Certificate - experimental aircraft builder. This allows you to maintain it including condition inspections. However if the plane is almost done and FAA want's to see proof you built it, you may not get repairman certificate. It would be like you bought a finished plane. I have heard FAA being very thorough about verification of work the builder did, and I have heard the inspector did not even look at it.

Keep in mind the KIT is just the tip of the money iceberg. The engine, prop, panel, paint, upholstery are big bucks. The Kit becomes only part of it. So if saving money it may not be much. You can buy a NEW kit slow or QB from Van. So they are not rare. If you want FAST, buy a flying plane. Remember after the kit is riveted together, you are only HALF way. The fitting of engine, prop, panel, systems, paint, upholstery is half the the time. Also you build skill in the tail, then wing, then fuselage (typical sequence). If you are low on skill and experience and jumping in the middle, it may affect the quality of work you do. It is easier to buy a new elevator or rudder you screwed up than the wing or fuselage.
 
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A friend bought a -10 that is almost ready to fly. The local DER said that the person who applies for the airworthiness is the builder and he would issue that person a reprimand certificate. That same DER said that folks who buy a plane from one of the “owner assist” companies has to answer several questions about the systems to qualify for the repairman certificate. I understand that this is anecdotal but it does happen.
 
Mconner7 said:
A friend bought a -10 that is almost ready to fly. The local DER said that the person who applies for the airworthiness is the builder and he would issue that person a reprimand certificate. That same DER said that folks who buy a plane from one of the “owner assist” companies has to answer several questions about the systems to qualify for the repairman certificate. I understand that this is anecdotal but it does happen.
Click to expand...
I am sure it happens. As I said some DAR's don't even look at your logs, written or photo journal's. However:

"person who applies for the airworthiness is the builder"
That is 100% WRONG and if the FAA caught wind of it there would be an ugly dumpster fire of consequences.

"answer several questions about the systems to qualify for the repairman certificate"
Show me where that is in the FAR's. This is ridiculous. You have to BUILD it to get credit as manufacture and repairman. If that were the case I could say my system knowledge of a B767 makes me the manufacture. If your friend has learned nothing about riveting, wiring, engine and fuel system fabrication, installation they are not the builder. These abuses end up causing FAA/Court case sthat will take or limit our freedoms. Heavens forbid the court comes back and says Kit plane EAB is not legal, unless you build it from plans and raw material I am using hyperbolae or exaggeration to make a pint. We have an amazing gift and freedom. Abuse it lose it. With the compensation for instruction in EAB mess, there may be a case where the courts say you can't hire help for compensation. The word Amateur is in there... not rivit gun for hire "builder assist". That seems counter to having well built safe planes, just like adding bureaucratic mess to training in EAB's to fix a problem that did not exist is illogical. Let's police ourselves and not abuse this great freedom.

FAR are clear.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...etting-started/selection-articles/faa-51-rule

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/BuilderResources/getting-started/the-51-percent-rule

The scenario you state requires your "Friend" to sign and falsify records stating they built it (with a competent DAR). You have to lie. The DAR has to look the other way, be derelict in his/her duties or "honestly" ignorant to let it happen. There may be excuses but it is still a violation with potential unpleasant consequences.

EAB planes are for education, not a cottage industry of kit plane builders to sell new, yet not flown. to buyers who claim they built it. I am not a DAR or FAA inspector (yet) but this is wrong. The DAR (not DER - designee Engineering representative) is in jeopardy of having approval authority stripped and legal issues, violation of federal laws. This is like the LODA mess we are in now.

I have been in the hanger when two FAA inspectors (not a DAR) came out for the birth of a friends EAB (Glass star). They were thorough, just short of a full body cavity search. They actually went well beyond. They got up close and inspected details and found minor issues. All that is great and welcomed.

Bottom line these FAA inspectors (not DAR's) would not let your friend get credit as repairman and put his name on data plate as manufacture, unless your friend presented fraudulent data and falsifying records (sign he built it). You don't want to do that. Get caught you will have your pilots certs revoked, possible federal penalties, fines and jail (I am not a lawyer). Chance of getting caught may be small . I would not do it.

There is precedence here of people selling complete yet un registered EAB's, and getting called on it by FAA.
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
I am sure it happens. As I said some DAR's don't even look at your logs, written or photo journal's. However:

"person who applies for the airworthiness is the builder"
That is 100% WRONG and if the FAA caught wind of it there would be an ugly dumpster fire of consequences.

"answer several questions about the systems to qualify for the repairman certificate"
Show me where that is in the FAR's. This is ridiculous. You have to BUILD it to get credit as manufacture and repairman. If that were the case I could say my system knowledge of a B767 makes me the manufacture. If your friend has learned nothing about riveting, wiring, engine and fuel system fabrication, installation they are not the builder. These abuses end up causing FAA/Court case sthat will take or limit our freedoms. Heavens forbid the court comes back and says Kit plane EAB is not legal, unless you build it from plans and raw material I am using hyperbolae or exaggeration to make a pint. We have an amazing gift and freedom. Abuse it lose it. With the compensation for instruction in EAB mess, there may be a case where the courts say you can't hire help for compensation. The word Amateur is in there... not rivit gun for hire "builder assist". That seems counter to having well built safe planes, just like adding bureaucratic mess to training in EAB's to fix a problem that did not exist is illogical. Let's police ourselves and not abuse this great freedom.

FAR are clear.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...etting-started/selection-articles/faa-51-rule

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/BuilderResources/getting-started/the-51-percent-rule

The scenario you state requires your "Friend" to sign and falsify records stating they built it (with a competent DAR). You have to lie. The DAR has to look the other way, be derelict in his/her duties or "honestly" ignorant to let it happen. There may be excuses but it is still a violation with potential unpleasant consequences.

EAB planes are for education, not a cottage industry of kit plane builders to sell new, yet not flown. to buyers who claim they built it. I am not a DAR or FAA inspector (yet) but this is wrong. The DAR (not DER - designee Engineering representative) is in jeopardy of having approval authority stripped and legal issues, violation of federal laws. This is like the LODA mess we are in now.

I have been in the hanger when two FAA inspectors (not a DAR) came out for the birth of a friends EAB (Glass star). They were thorough, just short of a full body cavity search. They actually went well beyond. They got up close and inspected details and found minor issues. All that is great and welcomed.

Bottom line these FAA inspectors (not DAR's) would not let your friend get credit as repairman and put his name on data plate as manufacture, unless your friend presented fraudulent data and falsifying records (sign he built it). You don't want to do that. Get caught you will have your pilots certs revoked, possible federal penalties, fines and jail (I am not a lawyer). Chance of getting caught may be small . I would not do it.

There is precedence here of people selling complete yet un registered EAB's, and getting called on it by FAA.
Click to expand...
FAR's are very clear. Commercial assistance is allowed BUT major portion (>50%) needs to be built by amateurs for educational purposes. This can include a previous builder but you want written confirmation about what he built and what not as well as pictures / log. You prove that it was amateur built by completing a checklist, signing the eligibility statement and submitting builder's log, pictures, invoices, inventory lists, etc. etc. The last amateur builder's name appears on data plate and applies for airworthiness.
 
My response is worth as much as you’re paying for it. Having said that, I have watched the used kit market on this, and other sites, for a long period of time. We are currently in a market that’s a little stronger than it has been. But historically, used kits sell for 30 to 50% less than a new kit. Most of the time, the labor decreases the value. Problem is, a used kit may not be complete, or may have errors that require a lot of work to fix. However, a kit that is in Canada, seems to be more valuable. I have also seen that the less complete a kit is, the closer to new price it gets. If you talk to a few serial builders, you will discover that most pay half price for a used kit. Personally, I would never pay anywhere close to full price. But that goes for anything used. I see people selling 10 year old equipment that is unused for new price and it boggles my mind. For me, as soon as it is used it is discounted at least 25%. Otherwise, I would rather have new with all of the convenience and warranty and peace of mind that comes with that.

Another issue, that is not insurmountable, is the paper trail. It is much more convenient if every single kit has a direct paper trail back to vans. I misunderstood the way kits are tracked and accounted for when I started building my first project. I had a great paper trail on the empennage, but could not document the rest of the kits that I bought secondhand. This created some inconvenience. I was able to correct it all, but it was a pain.
 
The fact that you can get the kit in a short time might be worth something to you, compared to waiting for Van's to deliver it to you.

Dave
 
If you want an aircraft quicker, save a bit longer and buy a quick build, or buy a fully built aircraft. If you are getting into this because you think you want to build, buy a tail kit and have the confidence and knowledge that you did everything right. If you don’t like the taste of it, you can quickly sell your tools and the tail section without losing much. Trying to flip a kit that you’re the second builder of will be difficult as everyone will be thinking there’s and issue with it. I’d leave the half built kits for those who already have one under their belt and know what they are looking for.
Tom
RV-7
 
Many used kits sell in the 50-65% range, on average. Unstarted kits generally sell quickly when priced in this range, partially built also sell, but slower. This is based on around 10-12 years of watching used kits offered on this and other sites. As a single data point, I bought all 4 RV-10 kits, in the box, for about 55-60% of the cost of ordering from Vans. I made a trip halfway across the country to pick them up, the cost of that trip was probably about a wash when considering crating and shipping costs from Vans.
 
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