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Teardown Liability

GrinchF16

Well Known Member
I have a crack in the case of my O360. Have been looking at options but now my A&P has come up voice that he is concerned about liability with my insurance should something go wrong in the future. He seems worried that since he can’t call it an overhaul it makes him more liable. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I may very well be) but isn’t an overhaul an overhaul and a rebuild a rebuild. When you rebuild the motor it doesn’t have to be an overhaul but it’s still a completely acceptable repair option correct? I think I’m missing how a rebuild generates any more liability than anything else an A&P might do to a plane. Thoughts?
 
A "rebuilt" engine should be put back into like-new condition, with all parts examined and replaced if they aren't within new tolerances. An "overhauled" engine has new parts installed when they are worn beyond limits, but many are left in place because the wear limit hasn't been exceeded.
 
You are going to overhaul or rebuild the engine.
In both cases the engine will be taken apart.
If there is a known crack in the case, I would send the case to Divco for inspection/ repair. Then you can fly safely and no one will discuss liability.

https://www.divcoinc.com/

Good luck
 
I have a crack in the case of my O360. Have been looking at options but now my A&P has come up voice that he is concerned about liability with my insurance should something go wrong in the future. He seems worried that since he can’t call it an overhaul it makes him more liable. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I may very well be) but isn’t an overhaul an overhaul and a rebuild a rebuild. When you rebuild the motor it doesn’t have to be an overhaul but it’s still a completely acceptable repair option correct? I think I’m missing how a rebuild generates any more liability than anything else an A&P might do to a plane. Thoughts?

I think your mechanic is telling you that -for some reason - he doesn’t want to be involved. Maybe liability,. Maybe just doesn’t want to take the time, maybe he doesn’t feel comfortable doing that much work. It really doesn’t matter what his reasons are - you don’t want to force someone to do something they don’t want to do, especially with your engine!

If what you want to do is take it all apart, repair the case, then re-assemble with all the same parts that came off, doing no further inspection or checks, then its really just a “repair” - but I’m not sure I’d personally be comfortable with helping you under those conditions either - it all depends on how many hours are on the engine. He might be hinting that it’s due for overhaul, so why not do the overhaul? Without knowing the hours, we don’t know the whole story.

If the engine is past the overhaul calendar time, and halfway to the overhaul hours, I’d probably overhaul it if it were mine. You never know what you’re going to find……
 
So- - Since Brian (OP) had a used engine installed in his RV and he is now the owner, can he exercise the one-time-per serial-number "right" to purchase a new Lycoming from Vans?
 
So- - Since Brian (OP) had a used engine installed in his RV and he is now the owner, can he exercise the one-time-per serial-number "right" to purchase a new Lycoming from Vans?

That's been tried before - and the answer is yes - or at least it used to be.
 
New Engine

Bill, yes I recently purchased a new engine from Vans using my 2014 RV8A S/N.

Ron B.
 
It is a personal choice.

So what, $30k-ish to overhaul an IO-360 vs $40k-ish for a new one?

What is a core worth, and all your time chasing the best vendors for replacing all the parts not available? And get a new discount prop too.

Probably just me, but I purchased a new YIO engine just after the 2009 crash. I had talked to several build shops, they said for the price of the new Lycoming they could not buy parts for that number and recommended new. Keep an open mind.
 
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A "rebuilt" engine should be put back into like-new condition, with all parts examined and replaced if they aren't within new tolerances. An "overhauled" engine has new parts installed when they are worn beyond limits, but many are left in place because the wear limit hasn't been exceeded.

the terms used for engine overhauls are sometimes misunderstood.

first the term remanufactured is not used by the FAA.

there are two types of processes defined by the FAA. rebuilt and overhauled.

a rebuild can only be done by the manufacture or an agency approved by the manufacture. a rebuild must conform to new tolerances and limits, however, used parts can be used if they meet spec. a rebuild engine gets a zero time log book with no history of the previous life.

all others are overhauled. an overhaul can be to new tolerances and limits, or service limits defined in the overhaul manual. this engine carries the history of the previous life and total time from that. even and engine overhauled to new tolerances and limits using new parts cannot be called a rebuiild if it was not done by the manufacture or an approved agency.

if the work was not done iaw the overhaul manual and all required parts replaced, required inspections done, and all limits verified, then the work can only be referred to as a repair.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
Great input all. Couple of comments….

- Yes, I can buy from Vans, 9-14 months
- I wish I lived in a world where a new engine was “$40’ish”
- There’s a fairly big difference between a $15-20000 case repair and rebuild and a new $50000 engine with a 9-14 month wait.
- Fully understand that I can’t coerce someone into doing the work. Wouldn’t even consider that as an option.
- Even entertained buying an off the shelf overhauled motor but almost same as new.
- I have found, in many cases, people are apparently so busy they can’t even return an email or phone call.

If I could find a new engine for $40’ish and a month wait, I’d pounce on it..

That is all….
 
The engine works fine but has a repairable crack in the case. Will your mechanic overhaul it? Is he trustworthy? Is his concern legitimate to him, or do you think he is trying to milk you? If he is a good mechanic, and a good person, and you trust him, and his concern is ligit to him, then sometimes it might be best to accommodate minor quirks and foster relationships with good people.

How much extra expense is there between a teardown/reassemble compared with a field overhaul if all your big parts are serviceable? Assess the risk....guess, take a gamble. I bet for the extra expense you end up with a fresh overhaul in the logbook that increases your value more than that extra expense.
 
The engine works fine but has a repairable crack in the case. Will your mechanic overhaul it? Is he trustworthy? Is his concern legitimate to him, or do you think he is trying to milk you? If he is a good mechanic, and a good person, and you trust him, and his concern is ligit to him, then sometimes it might be best to accommodate minor quirks and foster relationships with good people.

How much extra expense is there between a teardown/reassemble compared with a field overhaul if all your big parts are serviceable? Assess the risk....guess, take a gamble. I bet for the extra expense you end up with a fresh overhaul in the logbook that increases your value more than that extra expense.

You make great points. My A&P is awesome. He is primarily a jet guy with not a ton of piston experience but he has been learning a ton. I really think his issue is time. He has some fairly large projects he is working and mine would take time. He has done a couple of field overhauls and both engines, pushing 500 hours or so, have been running great. So bottom line is, I do trust him and we have a great relationship but I think this is just bigger than he wants to throw on his plate right now.
 
So O360 cracked where? It is pretty common to have a case crack in internal webs. It is also common to have them repaired. I assume this is external and possibly not where they can do a weld repair? You can buy a new case half or halves for way less than a whole new engine. I assume the entire engine is OK, crank, rods, pistons, rings, valves, heads. If this were PRE 2019 when new engines were less it would be a tough choice. How?

If you have your heart set on a $40,000 new engine (vs repairing your existing engine for say $10,000), go for it. I see on ebay newly refurbished yellow tag Lycoming case halves ready to go for $6000.

If the case can be weld repaired, often they are, it would be sent out to a certified repair station, who will clean, inspected for all specs, weld, normalized (heat treat the case to alleviate residual stresses from welding); then it will be refinished, painted like new. put the crank and rods in, bolt the case halves together, put the jugs on. Not brain surgery.

So what are you worried about besides your wallet, Liability with your insurance company. Good on you for having hull insurance. If you repaired this engine you will have yellow tag from repair station for repaired / overhauled case and the A&P signed off log book for tear down engine and reassemble. I am not sure you even need an A&P but I would enlist one to help. You should be covered. This is experimental. We do not have to comply with the same type certificated airplane requirements. We don't have a type certificate therefore we don't need type certificate parts or need to maintain it to the same standard. That is why there is a placard warning in cockpit, can't be used for hire, etc. I think it wise to try and maintain it to same level or standards are type cert. planes but legally no, not required. As far as insurance.... you need to research that with the insurance company based on your policy.

Stuff happens. That is what insurance is for. If you are concerned CALL your insurance company and say I am doing XYZ to repair my engine. I doubt a new engine is required per your policy. Get your policy out and READ IT forwards and backwards like a lawyer. Then ask your insurance agent a lot of questions, like WHAT would void my policy so you would not pay out a claim... with typical examples.

Once repairs are done send them copies of the yellow tags and engine log book pages.
Let's for example God forbid you screw up a landing, go off the side of the runway. I doubt they will not pay out because of unrelated engine case weld repair work. Now if you are not current, 90 days T/L's, Flight Review, Medical, and plane is out of "annual" or condition inspection, insurance may say "no bueno", not settle for damage or loss of aircraft loss, or any liability / medical claim per policy. Look at exclusions and disclaimers. I am far from an insurance expert. I have had to fight with insurance over home owner insurance and storm damage.

It is experimental. You could DO ALL the work and sign it off yourself if you are the builder. If you are not the builder I still think you can do a majority of the work, at least remove engine, remove all the accessories, and reinstall it once engine is gone through. I did something like this with my used engine I bought for my project. I wanted to go through it, so I got an A&P involved with engine tear down, sending items off to repair station for overall. He helped me reassemble engine. It was fun and learned a lot.

Even with a certified plane, with A&P supervision you can work on the plane.
 
It's a repair and I suspect he doesn't want to do it without saying so. Only the manufacturer can do a rebuild.
 
Speaking in generalities...
A&P's are busy. A&P's less and less are doing 'field overhauls'. A disassemble / reassemble of the engine is going to be just about as much work as a field overhaul for the A&P. An A&P that is 'primarily a jet guy' is not going to be someone that's done this before.

put yourself into his shoes... and you'd probably not want the work.

In general, this sort of thing is done by engine shops. The A&P pulls the engine. Engine goes to the engine shop. They tear down and send the case off to Divco (etc). And then either reassemble you parts checking anything worn beyond tolerance or also putting in new parts on reassembly.

So I think you need to find a reasonably located (and recommended) engine shop.
 
I was in a similar situation about 4 years ago. I pulled my engine and shipped it out to Barrett Precision in Tulsa for a TDI. I ordered new cylinders on it all the way around (I had the AD stricken Titan cylinders). Barrett is excellent but being a specialty boutique shop with seasoned engine builders it can take some time. They are located in an area of Tulsa where most of the big engine machine shops are located within walking distance (Divco, Rick Roman's, Aircraft Specialties Services, Aircraft Accesories and others). The point there being there is cooperation and support with the neighboring shops who each provide their own area of expertise and any technician can walk over and check on a process an even find parts that they are out of stock on. They discovered case fretting on my engine and had Divco re-machined the case halves. They basically did a full overhaul since the components were inspected, repaired or polished or replaced in the same fashion

You might want to call and talk to Rhonda Barrett. She knows engines.

Here is a photo of it out of the crate when it came back from Barrett. Runs strong and smooth.
 

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Great input all. Couple of comments….

- Yes, I can buy from Vans, 9-14 months
- I wish I lived in a world where a new engine was “$40’ish”
- There’s a fairly big difference between a $15-20000 case repair and rebuild and a new $50000 engine with a 9-14 month wait.
- Fully understand that I can’t coerce someone into doing the work. Wouldn’t even consider that as an option.
- Even entertained buying an off the shelf overhauled motor but almost same as new.
- I have found, in many cases, people are apparently so busy they can’t even return an email or phone call.

If I could find a new engine for $40’ish and a month wait, I’d pounce on it..

That is all….

Have you looked at the Vans show price for a YO-360? Less than $37k. What are you really asking for? Do you know Earl Findlay?
 
Bill,
I do not know Earl Findley. Should I? I've been talking with Van's. They are telling me a couple of things. 1) They aren't sure they have access to a replacement engine for me and 2) If the do, 9-18 month wait.

What am I really looking for? What I'd really like is a new motor available in a month or two vs nine. Most shops have been min-manned during SnF so I have appointments with a couple of shops over the next couple of days. Hoping to find someone with a rebuilt motor in stock that I can exchange for or a shop that isn't 24 weeks (that's code for 6 months) out on a case repair and rebuild.
 
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You might try Western Skyways in Montrose, CO

I have been biting my tongue but upon reflection feel the need to mention my experience with Western Skyways. Not with any vengeance but rather as a warning to fellow RV owners. Three below-par experiences. Three big bore Continentals. Two IO-520's and an O-470. One of the 520's was a fly it to their facility where they overhauled the core and re-installed it in their shop. First and foremost is a lack of quality control. The back and forth shipped 520 came back with a different, wrong sump. The Skyways-installed 520 turn-key engine had EGT probes sticking through the aluminum baffles because they installed the probes in random locations on the new exhaust prior to installing the baffles. Rather than fixing it they just cut holes in the new baffles so the EGT probes poked out on top. Then they voluntarily did extra unsolicited airframe work on the landing gear and fuselage not related to the engine work including replacing a lot of serviceable parts so the invoice was a way over-inflated surprise. So I would rate Western Skyways as a third-tier engine shop on their best day.
 
Bill,
I do not know Earl Findley. Should I? I've been talking with Van's. They are telling me a couple of things. 1) They aren't sure they have access to a replacement engine for me and 2) If the do, 9-18 month wait.

What am I really looking for? What I'd really like is a new motor available in a month or two vs nine. Most shops have been min-manned during SnF so I have appointments with a couple of shops over the next couple of days. Hoping to find someone with a rebuilt motor in stock that I can exchange for or a shop that isn't 24 weeks (that's code for 6 months) out on a case repair and rebuild.

Fair expectation - I share the distain for an airplane waiting for parts to get it flight ready. I know a Cirrus friend that is looking at an 18 month delay for an unexpected rebuild. She looked at new, and used aircraft and engines. It seems the parts supply chain is unusually restrained. No explanations as to why.

Keep hammering and good luck!!
 
western

Thanks for the heads up, they may be a victim of their own success, used to be a great shop...
 
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