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Need real world data concerning one Slick mag and one electronic ignition

AX-O

Well Known Member
All,
I did a search and found some data on this topic. I was wondering if you can tell me your experience from running one Slick mag and one EI. The pros and cons that you have run into. Difficulties? Gains? I currently have two Slick mags installed on my engine but want to explore the option of one and one. Now that I have switched to fuel injection and cold air sump this maybe the last engine mod. Thanks for any guidance.
 
That's the setup I have... and wouldn't think twice to do it again.. Down the road, I may replace the mag with second Lightspeed.. but no rush with that.. You should be able to sell that mag for close to what an LSE II costs..
 
Axel, the set up of one mag and one Lightspeed is flawless. The install is easiest during the initial build. Use the crank sensor. There is nothing to time
EVER, You use autoplugs which need only checking during annual. The gains are greatest in the leaning department. I like them so much I just changed out a new Left Mag for a second Lightspeed. I am supposed to get 6% more power, but that was not my reasoning. I wanted a simple ignition that never needs maintanence, no software upgrades, and has had absolutely no issues with the thousands of installs. It works exactly as Klaus advertises it to.


Just say no to MAGS

Regards,
Tad "Stripes" Sargent
 
All,
I was wondering if you can tell me your experience from running one Slick mag and one EI. The pros and cons that you have run into. Difficulties? Gains?

Great experience, same set-up (Plasma II). No downside, easy starts, runs LOP at altitude if I want it to. Only 106 hrs, though. Run the LSI wires carefully to avoid the ring gear and exhaust and mount the unit as the directions state.
 
Axel, the set up of one mag and one Lightspeed is flawless. The install is easiest during the initial build. Use the crank sensor. There is nothing to time
EVER, You use autoplugs which need only checking during annual. The gains are greatest in the leaning department. I like them so much I just changed out a new Left Mag for a second Lightspeed. I am supposed to get 6% more power, but that was not my reasoning. I wanted a simple ignition that never needs maintanence, no software upgrades, and has had absolutely no issues with the thousands of installs. It works exactly as Klaus advertises it to.


Just say no to MAGS

Regards,
Tad "Stripes" Sargent

What he said.

:D
 
All,
I did a search and found some data on this topic. I was wondering if you can tell me your experience from running one Slick mag and one EI. The pros and cons that you have run into. Difficulties? Gains? I currently have two Slick mags installed on my engine but want to explore the option of one and one. Now that I have switched to fuel injection and cold air sump this maybe the last engine mod. Thanks for any guidance.

Look for some past posts from Walt Aronow. I believe he converted to dual Lightspeeds from mag(s) and commented about it. If I remember correctly, I think he even has one LSII and one LSIII. His comments may the "next step" beyone what you're talking about.

I like my one slick one LSII setup, but that isn't exactly useful data. I have not touched the LSII in 400+ hours other than to clean the plugs a few times. I always start with both the impulse mag and LSII on, never any problem (yet, knock, knock).
 
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works fine

Axel,
I built a RV-9a in 2004 (currently 450 hours) with a O-320, one lightspeed (crank angle sensor) Plasma II and one Slick. The combination works very well and is a conservative way to get your feet wet with electronic ignition.

I've subsequently built a '8 and installed 2 Plasma II's. Works even better, but you do need to install some sort of backup power supply.

With one mag and one lightspeed you will find that during a typical runup (1800 rpm or so) that the lightspeed is carrying virtually all of the load. If you shut down the mag you'll see somewhere between 20-60 rpm drop depending on temp, humidity, etc... (mixture) with NO discernable change in noise, vibration, etc. But when you shut off the lightspeed the mag will drop 150 - 175. This is expected and normal since the lightspeed is probably firing a bit before the mag.

As to service. I've had the mag disassembled, cleaned, retimed and reinstalled. Fortunately no brush issues (current AD). The lightspeed has had NO service, NADA, NONE. I generally remove the mag's plugs at annual and clean them and regap them. They always have lead fouling (not bad, but always present) The auto plugs on the lightspeed are always removed, look fine, and thrown away and replaced for $2 apiece. Probably would run just fine for another year, but I replace them since they're cheap.

I would'nt hesitate to go this route if you want to try electronic ignition. When the Slick fails and needs serious rebuilding, sell the core and buy another EI. Maybe a PMAG.



All,
I did a search and found some data on this topic. I was wondering if you can tell me your experience from running one Slick mag and one EI. The pros and cons that you have run into. Difficulties? Gains? I currently have two Slick mags installed on my engine but want to explore the option of one and one. Now that I have switched to fuel injection and cold air sump this maybe the last engine mod. Thanks for any guidance.
 
Dual LSI...

I built my engine with one mag and one LSII, at about 500hrs rather than get into the mag I installed a LSIII on the other side (and all systems have "proven" to be reliable at this point). Definate improvement in LOP ops and engine smoothness with the dual LSI's. If I had it to do again I would do it the same way except I would go with both II's or III's (probably II's) and I would install the dual crank sensor to start with. I've also taken great care in pick-up harness routing using fire sleeve to protect the harness completely (along the side of the engine behind the exhaust), installed an SD8 BUG (back up generator) for a second power supply, replace the main battery every 2 years etc.. anyway you get the picture. Any questions let me know :D
 
Axel,
As stated, the one and one combination has been done countless times with few problems. That's what I have too (LSIII and mag). Two electronic systems would result in slightly better performance (according to Klaus), but the redundant nature of have a low-tech mag running is cheap insurance. If my mag fails and I need to spend another 700 bucks on a new one, I may reconsider. I start on the impulse mag and the LS both. Works great. Two blades and I'm running. I have the crank triggered Light Speed which I recommend for accuracy and simplicity. Klaus will drill and install your magnets for a reasonable price ($75.00 when I did it). He uses the big magnets now for all installs in case you decide to go to 2 Light Speeds later. I installed my electronic ignition module on my aft baggage compartment bulkhead (RV-8) vertically. It doesn't restrict may baggage and it's in a safe environement.

Scott
 
I've done this on 3 airplanes so far. I think it is the best combination of safety and efficiency. High altitude performance is much improved with the electronic ignition. I don't believe you can go wrong with this set up.

Vic
 
... I am supposed to get 6% more power, but that was not my reasoning ...
Just say no to MAGS

Regards,
Tad "Stripes" Sargent
Axel,

That 6% more power is for any dual EI over dual mags. One EI and one mag will increase your power approximately 4%.

Those numbers came from a large engine builder who sees those numbers on his dyno and will remain anonymous. They also said it really doesn’t matter which EI you used.

Due to the complexity of installing the LSI, I'm not a fan. My preference is the P-mags as they are easy to install, don't have all the connections like the LSI, they work, don't require a 2nd battery if installing two, etc. However, this is your plane, select the EI you are comfortable with and install that.
 
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I can't comment on the Hall Effect vs. Crank Sensor question, but I've now had two different 1 mag/1 EI combos on my airplane, and both have worked well.

I bought the airplane with a LSE Plasma I and a Bendix non-impulse coupled mag. Worked great, but when the LSE Plasma I stopped working (brain box issue...older technology, replacements not available), I installed an Electroair EI.

The Electroair has been a great system as well. Straight-forward install, with a slightly different crank sensor design from the LSE. Like the LSE, it worked great with the Bendix mag...and now works great with the Slick impulse-coupled mag I recently installed (Bendix was due for overhaul and the Slick was available from a friend for a good price).

One item on the crank sensor (for either brand) is that the prop needs to be off for either installation (can't remember if your prop is on yet).

My experience with mag checks and performance has been similar to others that posted. 100-150 RPM drop with the EI off, and no drop with mag off. High altitude performance has been excellent with each system (though I can't compare it to two mags...sorry).

It really purrs with the EI though!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Crank Sensor

Why is the Hall Effect Module not as good or more difficult to use than the direct crank sensor?

I had the hall effect at first but started to experience some persistant oil leakage that we coudn't seem to fix. The crank sensor has no moving parts and needs no maintenance (although it's really not necessary I do pull the prop every year just to keep an eye on things and replace the alt belt). When I elected to go dual LS it was also the most economical way to go.
 
Hi Axel,

I have a Hall Effect PIII and a Slick mag combo. If I had it to do over again, I would go with the direct crank sensing PIII vs the Hall effect. The Hall Effect is easier to install but it costs more and contains an electronic circuit board while the crank sensor is mechanical and, based on posts to this site, is more reliable. My Hall effect sensor seal went bad after around 125 hrs and allowed engine oil to coat the internal circuit board. I sent it back to Klaus and he replaced the seal but others have had a similar problems. No problems posted, however, on the direct crank sensor.

Reference performance, the mag/EI combo delivers very good performance, and is probably the reason my carb engine will run smoothly LOP. I get a 10-20 rpm drop when the mag is shut off but a 70 rpm drop with the EI off--as stated the EI is doing most of the work. If you start your engine on the mag and then switch on the EI you can actually hear the engine smooth out.

Hope this is of value.

Cheers,

db
 
burned pancakes

Axel.
Great question and debate, ? electronic system, ? conventional mag. Not to be opinionated, a well known gentleman in the RV community that runs one of our ignition systems came by our G3i booth in KOSH this year and his quote stuck with me. ? A 1/2 system is like cooking a pancake and not flipping it, burned on one side and raw on the other?. There are great debates on flame propagation and cylinder pressures as flame fronts build across the combustion chamber from the first initial ionization for spark. Running a mag that is behind the initial EI ignition timing has to build more KV to ionize. If the magneto and harness is in good to excellent condition with no potential problems, they usually do OK. If they?re worn and getting tired this will shorten the useful remaining life of the component. This all has a bearing on the power range you operate you engine in also. At 60-65% or below @ higher altitudes the EI will advance the timing leaving the mag timing way behind. At the higher power settings the window of timing difference between the EI and mag is not that much. Dual electronic in my opinion is always better than a ? system. If you are concerned about the redundancy for an EI system, I do understand.
Sincerely,
Thomas Shpakow
www.g3ignition.com
 
I started flying my 9A/O-320 with two slicks. During the 40 hours (at about 25, IIRC) I swapped out the right Slick for an E-Mag. I had good data by then, and I saw about one gph decrease in fuel burn. Also easier starting. Little improvement in speed or TO power. At about 100 hours I swapped the left mag for a P-Mag. Fuel burn improved slightly, maybe .2 gph. Again, starting may have been a little better, but not much as it started great with 1M/1E. BUT... the idle was much smoother, and there was a slight improvement in TO power and a 5 mph increase in top speed! I know it has to do with flame propagation and all that technical stuff, but it was quite noticeable. If you want to save fuel, one will do it. For smoothness and power, gotta add both. YMMV.

Bob Kelly
 
Axel, I'm also running the Slick/LSE combo. I installed the Hall Effect Module and while I've never had any leaks there is a regular inspection (100 hr?) for bearing and seal wear. Originally I was concerned about the glue holding up,however, knowing what I now do about adhesives I would not worry! I wish I had installed the Direct Crank Sensor--no moving parts to worry about.
 
Both work

I think the direct crank sensor is probably more robust (no moving parts at all), but on a dual EI system I was reluctant to use it for BOTH ignitions. It would be a single point failure. So I used the direct crank sensor for one and the hall effect for the other. Its really just what you're comfortable with.

[/QUOTE]
Why is the Hall Effect Module not as good or more difficult to use than the direct crank sensor?[/QUOTE]
 
"no moving parts" myth busted?

While I consider it to be very robust, I wouldn't consider the LSI to have "no" moving parts. It has one very important moving "assembly" bolted to the crankshaft behind the spinner. This whirls around at crankshaft speed with all it's vibrations in very close proximity to the engine case and the "pick up" module. Is it significant? Well, if you put a second pickup in there for reliability and the first one failed mechanically, that event may also take out the second. If there were truly no moving parts, this could not happen. Probably very robust as is and I've never heard of a catastophic failure but still wouldn't want a newb to believe that there are "no" moving parts. Please corrct me if I'm wrong.:eek:

Bevan
 
Magnets

True the magnets are moving. Of course everything is moving in some reference frame!:D

Actually my point was that I chose not to use the crank sensor to drive both LSI's because there is a small possibility that something (thrown alternator belt for example) could take out both systems. By using the crank sensor for one and the hall effect for the other, and two batteries, I feel like its about as robust as I can make it.

While I consider it to be very robust, I wouldn't consider the LSI to have "no" moving parts. It has one very important moving "assembly" bolted to the crankshaft behind the spinner. This whirls around at crankshaft speed with all it's vibrations in very close proximity to the engine case and the "pick up" module. Is it significant? Well, if you put a second pickup in there for reliability and the first one failed mechanically, that event may also take out the second. If there were truly no moving parts, this could not happen. Probably very robust as is and I've never heard of a catastophic failure but still wouldn't want a newb to believe that there are "no" moving parts. Please corrct me if I'm wrong.:eek:

Bevan
 
Is there an EI solution that bolts on where the conventional mag goes, and uses the conventional mag's mechanism for driving the signal? ie. unbolt a mag, bolt on a block in it's place that does it electronically? Just wondering if there's something that doesn't need parts bolted on to the crankshaft up front. I'm a little concerned about failures up there too.

Rob
 
Is there an EI solution that bolts on where the conventional mag goes, and uses the conventional mag's mechanism for driving the signal? ie. unbolt a mag, bolt on a block in it's place that does it electronically? Just wondering if there's something that doesn't need parts bolted on to the crankshaft up front. I'm a little concerned about failures up there too.

Rob

Rob, yes there is, it is called the E & P-mags. Here's the link.

The E-mag is strictly electronic while the P-mag is the same unit but with a small generator built in so it is self powering should ship's power go away.

I'm running dual P-mags and think the world of them. In fact, I thought so highly of them that myself and a partner developed an in cockpit monitor/controller for them call the EICommander.
 
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There are absolutely no parts bolted to the crank shaft for the LSI system. The sensors are bolted to the front of the crank-case. There are small magnets mounted in holes in the flywheel they are the only moving parts.
 
Challenge Questions

Why would you want to put two different ignitions systems with the concommitant increased parts count (and maintenance time and cost for mags) on an engine? If you're squeemish about e-ignition reliability, why would you consider putting even one on in the first place? Is it that your desire for performance and fuel efficiency has you selling out your concerns about safety (as in eveyone has a price)?

The performance advantages of e- over mags is well known. I've substituted a mag for a P-mag at another's request and observed the performance deterioration. Mags bring nothing to the party.

I've run Lightspeeds and P-mags; I'd stick with P-mags. I've experienced mag failures. I won't use 'em again given the good e- options we now have.

John Siebold
 
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Just another data point. I've got one Slick mag and one Lightspeed II+ ignition. The lightspeed has been perfect and carries most of the load. The Slick mag has had two ADs already.
 
One bendix and one LS hall effect. Great starts. 350 hours. No leaking seals, easy to time and has never been out of time. One moving part, the shaft that has the magnet that spins past the puck-up. This unit is soo easy to install......... a caveman could do it.
 
Our -7 has a slick mag and an LS II with the Hall Effect sensor. 1400 hours and all works well. Spent serious bucks on the slick rebuilds over the years and the Hall has a bit of an oil leak. Drilled a tiny hole in the bottom of the housing and ordered up a replacement seal for my next annual.
 
Lots of good comments here but as for "why", I think Vic S said it best. What you are considering is exactly what I had on my RV-3 and loved it. Slick mag, Ted Rose ElectroAir EI on the other side. Building an aerobatic biplane now and won't spend much time in cruise, otherwise I'd be doing the same. I want two mags for this bird. If I were to do it again however, I'd go with the SDS electronic ignition with the cockpit display. Make sure whatever you do, you have a cockpit display of the ignition timing on that side. The only thing that concerns me about EI in aircraft is the "potential" for a too far advanced condition due to some failure / problem on that side. I know it is exceedingly rare, but at 9.5 over mountains or water, I want to know what is going on up there and have the ability to control it. As for waiting, heck no, go for it.
 
Which one, P Mag vs Lightspeed?

I’m surprised that the thread hasn’t drifted into this debate by now.
 
I’m surprised that the thread hasn’t drifted into this debate by now.

Both work well. Most people don't have experience with both, me included. I have over 5,000 aggregate hours on 3 LSE systems (with 1 Slick) in homebuilts. If one selects the LSE, best to use direct crank trigger or the more recent Mini Sensor ...avoiding the Hall Effect module.

If it fits, use a Bendix instead of a Slick.
 
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