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Pros and Cons between the 7 and 8

mkjprice

mkjprice

Active Member
Aside from the seating arrangement - which is the better airplane? I still want to do some light aerobatics. I am 6'4" and about 260lbs. Which is the best? Is one more fun to fly than the other? I would love to hear from people that have flown both.

I am based in Central Utah at 5000'msl.
 
RV8

Mike,

About 5 years ago I had a hard time deciding which model I wanted before I ordered my kit from Vans. I settled on the RV8 and I am very pleased with it. They are both beautiful airplanes; there's something about each that I really admire. I think I would be happy with a 7 if I had one, but the shape of the tandem seating RVs is awesome. They are the cat's meow to me.
 
Ever flown in a 7

I am leaning to the 8 just because I like the more fighter pilot/traditional flying experience with the throttle in your left hand and the stick in your right. I know it's silly - but that is what I imagine.

Do you have any time in a 7 or ever been for a ride in one? Just curious - thanks for the input.
 
YOU need to go sit in both. That may drive you to one or the other IF CG issues do not rule out either. The point is that shoulder room may be much better in the -8 than the -7....if that matters.

On the recent Bahamas trip there were no 8(A) aircraft so that may suggest something.
 
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Ron Lee said:
YOU need to go sit in both. That may drive you to one or the other IF CG issues do not rule out either.

On the recent Bahamas trip there were no 8(A) aircraft so that may suggest something.
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Does the Van's Factory have both an 8 and a 7 so you can sit in both?
 
I have a -7, which I really like. But if you're a bigger guy, I think the -8 would be more comfortable and give more width/shoulder room.

Issues that always come up when discussing the -7 vs the -8.

  • -7 allows you to talk to and see your passenger
  • -8 puts you on center-line - aerobatics are easier to coordinate to both left and right
  • -7 CG doesn't move as much when you have a passenger, the -8 gets twitchy with a passenger in the rear
  • -8 has a "fighter plane" look to it... Pretty cool!
  • -8 has greater hip/shoulder room
  • -8 has the passengers smelly feet right next to your hips. Hope they changed their socks this week!
 
DakotaHawk said:
I have a -7, which I really like. But if you're a bigger guy, I think the -8 would be more comfortable and give more width/shoulder room.

Issues that always come up when discussing the -7 vs the -8.

  • -7 allows you to talk to and see your passenger
  • -8 puts you on center-line - aerobatics are easier to coordinate to both left and right
  • -7 CG doesn't move as much when you have a passenger, the -8 gets twitchy with a passenger in the rear
  • -8 has a "fighter plane" look to it... Pretty cool!
  • -8 has greater hip/shoulder room
  • -8 has the passengers smelly feet right next to your hips. Hope they changed their socks this week!
Click to expand...

what do you mean by twitchy? As in uncontrollable - or just not quite as responsive?
 
...the -8 gets twitchy with a passenger in the rear
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The -8 gets nice with a standard passenger in the rear. Overly pitch sensitive requires Big Bubba and his baggage in the rear....at least with an angle valve motor and metal prop.

-8 has the passengers smelly feet right next to your hips. Hope they changed their socks this week!
Click to expand...

....as compared to their wet, smelly body rubbing up against you in a -7....

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
 
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DanH said:
....as compared to their wet, smelly body rubbing up against you in a -7 ;)
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That is why you take up women in the side by side models. Wimmin are purty and smell reel good.

I do have a question about the 8 stick. I sat in one once and it seemed like the stick was not as natural as the one in a side by side. In my 6A, I rest my hand on my leg and use precise, almost imperceptible stick movements. Can anyone comment on this aspect?
 
Ron Lee said:
I do have a question about the 8 stick. I sat in one once and it seemed like the stick was not as natural as the one in a side by side. In my 6A, I rest my hand on my leg and use precise, almost imperceptible stick movements. Can anyone comment on this aspect?
Click to expand...

The stick in my -6 was much closer to my spare tire than the sitck in the -8.
Since i'm slightly challanged in the height dept (5' 6"), the stock stick was
to far forward for my liking so I put an S bend in it. It is still farther forward
than my old -6, but ok. Just as a side note, if my legs were longer I would
be 5' 9" :D
 
...which is the better airplane?
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Neither. 99% of the basic design is the same, an individual aircraft's "qualities" will depend far more on the build quality and options taken (engine, prop, panel) than whether it is a 7 or 8 ;)

I still want to do some light aerobatics.
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Again, essentially identical (but see CG above / below). The SBS (6/7) spins are a little more exciting after 2-3 turns, to the degree that in the UK, the owners may not spin the 6/7 (they can the 8) [but the all are Flt Tested inc spinning prior aerobatic approval].

One "difference" is that the gear leg arrangement on the 8 gives a degree of aerodynamic buffet not on the other RV types. Again, in the UK, the RV-8 therefore does not require an artificial stall warner - the other models do (maybe not the 3/4?).

?-7 CG doesn't move as much when you have a passenger, the -8 gets twitchy with a passenger in the rear
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This aspect goes wider than just aerobatics. A true aerobatic aircraft has the pilot in the rear seat (Extra 300), and the pax over the CG. The RV-8 is, by definition Fwd CG solo, and aft CG dual - implications:
  1. It is "heavy" in pitch in aerobatics solo - I carry ~50lb ballast in the rear baggage area for serious/display aeros - it makes a real difference
  2. It gets light / nice approaching the aft aeros limit
  3. It gets positively delightful, but potentially dangerous beyond :eek:
  4. It does nice "wheelers" solo, more difficult v-v
  5. 3 pointers the reverse
NB Please not the above applies to the 7 v 8. I trust we are not including the A models in the comparison :D

I am totally biased that the 8 is the only RV for us (apart from the v slow build 3 we are building ;) ), but the 7 suits others better.

I think your
I am 6'4" and about 260lbs.
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might be one factor, however, towards the 8 - which after all, was primarily designed for the "larger pilot" than the RV-4 could accomodate :cool:

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
I also am a big guy

6'4"+ and 230#. I have a 6 with some big guy mods (pedals far forward, seat back 2" aft, side rails cut out at shoulders). I am pretty comfy in the 6.

I agree with Ron, I find the feel of the 8 stick "not as natural" as the 6/7. The stick feels "below and under" the panel to me. Like I am reaching down and forward to get it. That makes the panel seem too close and lower. The 6/7 panel seems to feel more "out and eye level" where the 8 panel seems "close and low". I generally feel like I am sitting "on" the 8 rather than "in" the 6/7.

These are preceptions from sitting in friends 8's that were not built for me. I may feel differently if the 8 was optimized for my body (as I tried to do in my 6).

The other factor is it is nice to be able to spread charts in the passenger seat when flying alone, or have them folded and presented by a courteous co-pilot.

I have a left side throttle in my 6, mounted right "into" the arm rest (the mixture and prop are center mounted). I find this addresses my fighter pilot sensibilities quite nicely.

Love my 6, would probably love the 8 had I built one!! the canopy lines are cool and logic tells me it's a "better" big guy fit (more shoulder space), but again I am comfy in the 6 and have shared it with some pretty big passengers with no problem.

Fly on.
 
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Mr H - you changed your Avatar.........

Having decided on the 7 because we wanted to tour and have access to an area behind us.......

I agree with my Wetumpka fellow - the 7 has you crushed by your fellow person.

Got half way through the 7 - sat in an 8 and went - Bugger !

Anyhow - now building the 8, enjoying the 7.

:cool:
 
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Come to Three Forks(9S5) on July 9th. There is supposed to be a -8 in the race AND my -7 ( w/left side throttle). Try them both on for size.

ps I 'm big boned myself:D...
 
you sound like a good guinea pig ;)

gereed75 said:
6'4"+ and 230#. I have a 6 with some big guy mods (pedals far forward, seat back 2" aft, side rails cut out at shoulders). I am pretty comfy in the 6.

I agree with Ron, I find the feel of the 8 stick "not as natural" as the 6/7. The stick feels "below and under" the panel to me. Like I am reaching down and forward to get it. That makes the panel seem too close and lower. The 6/7 panel seems to feel more "out and eye level" where the 8 panel seems "close and low". I generally feel like I am sitting "on" the 8 rather than "in" the 6/7.

These are preceptions from sitting in friends 8's that were not built for me. I may feel differently if the 8 was optimized for my body (as I tried to do in my 6).

The other factor is it is nice to be able to spread charts in the passenger seat when flying alone, or have them folded and presented by a courteous co-pilot.

I have a left side throttle in my 6, mounted right "into" the arm rest (the mixture and prop are center mounted). I find this addresses my fighter pilot sensibilities quite nicely.

Love my 6, would probably love the 8 had I built one!! the canopy lines are cool and logic tells me it's a "better" big guy fit (more shoulder space), but again I am comfy in the 6 and have shared it with some pretty big passengers with no problem.

Fly on.
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When you were sitting in the friends -8 --- did you close the canopy to see what it felt like for shoulder width? Just curious.
 
Pros etc.

Enough with the esoterical nuances already:D------build the one you want to see when you open the hangar door.:)
 
Couple of other minor considerations, in a side by side you have more of a panel real-estate and thus options. The canopy are very different and so is the build and choices of where to purchase the canopy (more choices for tandem vs. side by side). If it is intended for long trips, a side by side offers more convenient in terms of space and CG then tandem.

I like to travel with my 7A and could not be happy in a tandem
 
7 vs. 8

Pax affect cg more in the tandem, but the -8 has two baggage compartments (fore and aft) allowing some control of the cg. It also carries 25# more baggage at max. The smaller panel is a challenge but many builders have shown it can be done well. Each person in the -8 has more room but foregoes the companionship of side by side seating and the ability to give good dual. I don't think the RV-8 is well suited to instruction; lots on this in the forums. Will let you all know how Jane likes it once we are flying!
 
Panel space differences are real but with glass panels the norm is that really an issue now?
 
Panel Space

Ron Lee said:
Panel space differences are real but with glass panels the norm is that really an issue now?
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No...

DSC_9218.JPG



Skylor
 
I chose the -7

Think about what it is you like to do. I think the -7 is more suited to X-country than the -8. My reasons are simple. In my other planes, I always had a seat next to me for stuff- charts, flight bags, wife, whatever. I can also access the baggage compartment in flight. In the -8 it seems to me is the better plane for burning holes in the sky, on centerline, fantastic view out everywhere. I've only been in the back of the -8. Very comfortable, but no forward view at all.
 
I put my wife in the back of an -8. if'n I recall correctly she said 'if you like it so much, you sit back here'. Easy call on the -6 at that point.
 
I am close to your size, and I built an 8. I have a C-180 that I fly also, and everytime my wife gets in the 8 she comments how much she loves the view.

If you like flying around to see the countryside, the neat thing about the tandem is the fact that both have the same view to either side. Helps lots when pointing out various points of interest, which always seem to come up on both sides of the plane.
 
A friend who flies often in my 6A, flew backseat in a tandem last week. A bit claustrophobic at first, but he still prefers seeing what's ahead, instead of waiting for the side view. My wife is the same way, after riding for years on a back of a motorcycle. Personally, I think a tandem is great for the pilot. Just not as great for a passenger, or when taking a passenger. I seldom fly alone...........and prefer the up front company.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I chose the 7 because..

I chose to build/fly the 7 instead of the 8 because of:
- Comfort: Can move your legs around &/or sit on your left/right cheek on longer trips; in the 8, not so much
- Heat Both pilot/pax are close to heat vent and comfortable; every 8 I've been in is Just Plain COLD in the back seat in the winter
- Panel: more avionics/instrument room and easier to service (when you're upside down under the panel) - I can't figure out how I'd get upside down under an 8s panel ... certainly at my age)
- Cowl: more room to route/plumb stuff; 8's a lot tighter and I think they have more fiberglass/exhaust blistering problems than the 7s
- Baggage: Easier to store, and more flexible baggage sizes, can access bags in flight, seems like I can get more volume in my 7 than a friend can in his 8 (think camping gear)
- Emergencies: Easier for copilot/pax to take control/land (in 8, gauges not as visible from rear seat and more difficult to secure pilot away from stick - also need 2nd set of engine controls for rear seat, landing view in 8 more difficult for pax)
- Charts: More room for flightbag stuff (sidepanels, right seat, baggage area); in the 8, more difficult) which is Very Important if you're thinking IFR

In all honesty, the 8 looks a little more fighter-like; and I almost built it instead of the 7 for the looks. I don't think they fly that differently, but I'm not deep into aerobatics - so the 8 may have a slight advantage since all the wt is centerline. Another advantage to the 8 is that the main gear have "adjustable" tracking via shims; in the 7 there is no way to adjust the tire tracking - and many of us 7 drivers end up w/ slight toe-in/out resulting in harsher tire wear.

But I'm happy I chose the 7 every time I fly X-Country and particularly when I work on it.
 
Thanks All!

I really appreciate all the input and knowledge that is shared in this forum.

I do not plan to do more than a couple hour long flights in the plane, and with the advances in avionics, charts are becoming less needed (but not obsolete). Additionally - some good advance flight planning limits the needs for charts, and creative chart folding is always a well used skill.

Passengers- well I am not sure about that. My wife gets nervous in a 737. My son is 4 years old. I also intend to build a side by side later so I have a traveling airplane too - but it may be a -10 so I can take my Golf Clubs. That is what I would likely do most cross country in. The farthest I would take my plane would likely be Monterey, CA area, and to Osh Kosh. From UT that is not too far.

I am most concerned about - will I fit in either airplane, or will I have to make modifications to both to make them fit me? I am fine with doing the mods (after all, - I will be the manufacturer - right).

Has anyone flown a 7 and an 8? What did you like or not like about each?

Thanks again for all the awesome comments. It is helping.
 
mkjprice said:
Has anyone flown a 7 and an 8? What did you like or not like about each?

Thanks again for all the awesome comments. It is helping.
Click to expand...

They are both great. You have to nit pic or be very mission specific to identify any differences that might produce an important delta.

There is no question in my mind that the side by sides offer a better passenger/social experience.
There is no question in my mind that "on center" seating like the 8 offers a better pilot experience, albeit arguable for some.

As you look at the basic design of the 8, here are some thoughts;
Traditional tandem aircraft have the passenger or load up front, over or near the cg. The pilot was in back, counter balancing the engine, passenger/load had little affect on cg.

Traditional fighters where single place, not typically tandem.
Of course, I am sure there are many exceptions.

I would be interested to see how the design of the 8 might change if it was back seat solo. I think people have modified them for that, but what if it had been designed out of the box that way? Other than affecting the visibility dramatically, what would change?
This might lead to my next observation;
Visually, the are both great looking but I have always felt the gear position on the 8 is slightly off compared to the well balanced look of all of the other tailwheel models. Just a little off, not a lot off, so don't hate me you 8 drivers. It just looks different than the other models, including the 4, from that perspective. I believe it is the only tailwheel model to mount the gear to the airframe, not the engine mount.

I do like to put my arm over the seat next to me when flying alone. You can't do that in a tandem, but that would not be a deal breaker for me.

I love them both.
 
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If you search the archives for this particular discussion -- tandem v side-by-side -- you'll read the same arguments. However, to save you from searching, I'll throw in my two cents ...

I had a Grumman Yankee for several years and several hundred hours. I got used to having my left hand on a yoke and my right on the throttle. I was concerned about everything being backwards in an RV-8 (turned out to not even be an issue). Also, I liked having my passenger right next to me. And having that extra space to spread out "stuff" was advantageous on longer flights.

However, I also realized that 90% of my flying was done solo. With the kids grown and gone, and a spousal unit ("She Who Must Be Obeyed") who rarely wants to tag along anywhere, it just made more sense for me to build a tandem RV.

And, yes, the Walter Mitty thing did figure in a wee bit. Smokey wouldn't be my own personal fighter nearly as much if he had two front seats. Technically, I think that would make me an attack puke. :D

If I gave a lot of rides or did a lot of cross country flying, I think I'd prefer to have a seat next to me. But for smashing bugs and boring holes in the sky, I wouldn't trade my fighter for anything but ... well ... a fighter, I suppose.

As others have said, build YOUR plane for YOUR mission.
 
N8RV said:
As others have said, build YOUR plane for YOUR mission.
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As I stated previously,....you may not know what your mission is until you have an RV. I had no idea I would be doing aerobatics or formation flying. These two things would not have been part of my mission profile.
Given how much I love to do these two activities now, I believe the 8 to be a better choice than a 7 even though a 7 is more than capable.
We are lucky with RV's in that most of them fit multiple missions, but it does make for a more difficult decision on which product to choose.
 
While the -7 has always been my dream RV, I have only flown in 2 of them, once each... a -7A with 200hp angle valve IO-360 and a -7 with parallel valve 180hp IO-360. Both were equipped with Hartzel CS props. I've also flown my friend's -8 (in my avatar) for over 50 hours. The -7 is still a little cozy inside with two aboard (shoulder room), and I think it flies a little bit "tamer" or less sensitive on the stick than the -8.

Also, since I've got nearly 1000 hours of flying yoke-equipped spamcans with my left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle, I thought that flying left hand throttle / right hand stick would be "alien" and take some getting used to, but it wasn't. Instead I found it feels totally natural but flying with a stick in my left hand and right hand on the throttle feels "alien" to me.

The stock stick in an RV-7, even with the seat all the way back, is still very close... almost in my chest, but the stick on the RV-8 is quite a bit more forward, and that actually feels much more comfortable to me. I think I like it better that way in the -8 since I can rest my forearm on my leg and fly with two fingers on the grip. Of course that can be remedied by incorporating an S-bend in the sticks of the -7. And the throttle issue can also be remedied in the -7... my friend who just finished his -7 installed a left-hand throttle in his, linked up with the normal center-mounted push-pull throttle cable, for the best of both worlds.
 
Neal@F14 said:
While the -7 has always been my dream RV, I have only flown in 2 of them, once each... a -7A with 200hp angle valve IO-360 and a -7 with parallel valve 180hp IO-360. Both were equipped with Hartzel CS props. I've also flown my friend's -8 (in my avatar) for over 50 hours. The -7 is still a little cozy inside with two aboard (shoulder room), and I think it flies a little bit "tamer" or less sensitive on the stick than the -8.

Also, since I've got nearly 1000 hours of flying yoke-equipped spamcans with my left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle, I thought that flying left hand throttle / right hand stick would be "alien" and take some getting used to, but it wasn't. Instead I found it feels totally natural but flying with a stick in my left hand and right hand on the throttle feels "alien" to me.

The stock stick in an RV-7, even with the seat all the way back, is still very close... almost in my chest, but the stick on the RV-8 is quite a bit more forward, and that actually feels much more comfortable to me. I think I like it better that way in the -8 since I can rest my forearm on my leg and fly with two fingers on the grip. Of course that can be remedied by incorporating an S-bend in the sticks of the -7. And the throttle issue can also be remedied in the -7... my friend who just finished his -7 installed a left-hand throttle in his, linked up with the normal center-mounted push-pull throttle cable, for the best of both worlds.
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Flying the 2 different 7's ---- was there an appreciable difference between the 180hp and the 200 hp. I know obviously there is 20hp difference, but from what I understand (which is limited) the angle valve motor has more weight to it. Additionally from what I gather, you can modify a parallel valve engine to get to the 200+ mark for not much coin. Just wondering what you thought between the 2 powerplants.

LAdamson on the board has already converted me to C/S prop since I am at higher altitudes like him (only an about an hour driving distance).
 
Neal@F14 said:
The stock stick in an RV-7, even with the seat all the way back, is still very close... almost in my chest, but the stick on the RV-8 is quite a bit more forward, and that actually feels much more comfortable to me. I think I like it better that way in the -8 since I can rest my forearm on my leg and fly with two fingers on the grip. Of course that can be remedied by incorporating an S-bend in the sticks of the -7. And the throttle issue can also be remedied in the -7... my friend who just finished his -7 installed a left-hand throttle in his, linked up with the normal center-mounted push-pull throttle cable, for the best of both worlds.
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That's interesting and is certainly not the case in my airplane. If anything, my stick could be further back. Are you certain the -7 you were in had the seat backs mounted on the aft-most hinge and did not have the seat back brace adjustment installed? That's my configuration and is quite roomy. I always rest my hand on my leg and typically my arm is resting near my knee.

Roominess would also be dependent upon the type of seat cushions installed in the plane.
 
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