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A&P and Builder Dispointment

ty1295

Well Known Member
I dove head first into the experimental world a few years ago, and have been almost full time building and repairing them in that time. I have am a Manufacturing Engineer by trade with a lot of experience in machining.

Having now finished my own RV9A, and been helping other RV owners with their airplanes in the last 2 years I am amazed at what I am seeing and rather ashamed of what I am seeing.

For example.

  • Speaker wire for the mag wiring.
  • Missing Landing Gear Mount bolts on both sides
  • No control stops on any axis (unless you call the panel a stop)
  • Excessive 90 deg fittings on fuel lines, sometimes 2 components mounted on different surfaces connected via rigid 90's.
  • "Lower spark plugs stripped out, unable to perform compression test." Followed by A&P signing airplane off as airworthy.
  • AP servo's that can overcenter and lock up controls.
  • Lack of large washers on rod ends.


The list goes on. Of course we are fixing these issues, but for the owners they all thought they owned a safe airplane. I am sure others have more stories.

How do we help fix this? I really think RV's could have a safety record as good or better than certified, if these type issues along with pilot training was improved.
 
I see my fair share of poor workmanship, as well, but wouldn't say the RV world is worse than the type certified.

That said, one RV-8 I did a CI on last year had 3 out of 4 jam nuts on the elevator all the way loose - but get this - with torque stripe paint on them spanning the gap between the nut and base where it should have been seated.

An RV-7 had so much counter weight installed on the elevator it was bending at the point where the counter weight extension met the elevator. Probably took a pound of lead off each side to get it balanced (flying since 2011).
 
An RV-7 had so much counter weight installed on the elevator it was bending at the point where the counter weight extension met the elevator. Probably took a pound of lead off each side to get it balanced (flying since 2011).

I'm assuming someone added a very large extra chunk of lead? I don't see how this can be done unless one goes out and buys a piece of lead to add more. Confused why someone would do this?
 
I see my fair share of poor workmanship, as well, but wouldn't say the RV world is worse than the type certified.


I agree 110%. In fact I am starting to think some A&P's are worse mechanics than people who have never built an airplane.
 
I'm assuming someone added a very large extra chunk of lead? I don't see how this can be done unless one goes out and buys a piece of lead to add more. Confused why someone would do this?

In the”old” days we poured our own lead. At least I did in 1995.
 
How do we help fix this? I really think RV's could have a safety record as good or better than certified, if these type issues along with pilot training was improved.

- Be a good Mentor - help where you can, point out questionable items as you run into them, the owner will be grateful every time.

- support organizations like EAA (& others) that have multiple programs devoted to this, the goal being a better & safer homebuilt population.

- support VAF!!!
 
The Things You See......

In the”old” days we poured our own lead. At least I did in 1995.

What? There was another way? Us builders that had the "pile of formed aluminum" kits had to do a lot of things on our own. I had a large bar of tintype from a linotype machine (you may have to Google that to see what THAT is) that I have used for multiple things, including jewelry. It is my poured counterweights!

When I was building (and still, to this day) I would scour around every RV I could find, looking for ideas and how others put their airplanes together. OSH was a gold mine of information: hundreds of photographs. There were times when I would stumble on a build and nearly jump back from what I was seeing!!:eek::eek::eek: And they FLEW in!

That said, most people seem to realize this aircraft will have your butt going 200 mph and a long way from Ma Earth and it needs to be done RIGHT....! Still.....:eek::eek::eek:
 
Whaaaaaaaaaaa...??

That said, one RV-8 I did a CI on last year had 3 out of 4 jam nuts on the elevator all the way loose - but get this - with torque stripe paint on them spanning the gap between the nut and base where it should have been seated.

OK: it isn't funny but it IS! THAT cracked me UP...........:D:D:D
 
I see my fair share of poor workmanship, as well, but wouldn't say the RV world is worse than the type certified.

That said, one RV-8 I did a CI on last year had 3 out of 4 jam nuts on the elevator all the way loose - but get this - with torque stripe paint on them spanning the gap between the nut and base where it should have been seated.

An RV-7 had so much counter weight installed on the elevator it was bending at the point where the counter weight extension met the elevator. Probably took a pound of lead off each side to get it balanced (flying since 2011).

I've been helping out a local guy straighten out an RV that he paid a supposedly A&P AND an IA finish putting it together. I could not believe some of the things that this guy did !! Wire terminals smashed on with needle nosed pliers, non-standard (house) wiring, leaky brake lines that I figured out that he used a 42 degree house plumbing flaring tool on, to name a few. Amazing !!!
 
Balance

Oh interesting, I didn't know this was a thing. But was it ever done that way on a -7 kit? I have never heard of it on a -7.

My guess is they tried to balance the control surface with all the linkage and controls attached. Can't imaging 1 lb.
 
Oh interesting, I didn't know this was a thing. But was it ever done that way on a -7 kit? I have never heard of it on a -7.

Sometime after I painted my airplane (circa 1999/2000) Van's started offering pre-cast counterweights. My counterweights are a mass of lead sinkers embedded in epoxy.
 
Over the years I have seen some very sketchy stuff from certified aircraft over the years, and honestly I would say that 90% of home built experimentals have much higher build quality compared to 90% of certified aircraft. Owner maintenance scares the **** out of me, as well as some of the stuff that happens at shady flight schools.
 
I've been helping out a local guy straighten out an RV that he paid a supposedly A&P AND an IA finish putting it together. I could not believe some of the things that this guy did !! Wire terminals smashed on with needle nosed pliers, non-standard (house) wiring, leaky brake lines that I figured out that he used a 42 degree house plumbing flaring tool on, to name a few. Amazing !!!

Funny!! I once left a meeting arrangement to two PhD's in different locations. It was poorly done and did not happen. Each assumed the other was picking up the slack and catching the details, like time, date and agenda. And they were both valuable guys too. Just not their thing.

I bet those A&P/IA's could inspect the @#$%^& out of the paperwork.

Sometimes the elevator does not go to the bottom floor.
 
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I dove head first into the experimental world a few years ago, and have been almost full time building and repairing them in that time. I have am a Manufacturing Engineer by trade with a lot of experience in machining.

Having now finished my own RV9A, and been helping other RV owners with their airplanes in the last 2 years I am amazed at what I am seeing and rather ashamed of what I am seeing.

For example.

  • Speaker wire for the mag wiring.
  • Missing Landing Gear Mount bolts on both sides
  • No control stops on any axis (unless you call the panel a stop)
  • Excessive 90 deg fittings on fuel lines, sometimes 2 components mounted on different surfaces connected via rigid 90's.
  • "Lower spark plugs stripped out, unable to perform compression test." Followed by A&P signing airplane off as airworthy.
  • AP servo's that can overcenter and lock up controls.
  • Lack of large washers on rod ends.


The list goes on. Of course we are fixing these issues, but for the owners they all thought they owned a safe airplane. I am sure others have more stories.

How do we help fix this? I really think RV's could have a safety record as good or better than certified, if these type issues along with pilot training was improved.

Jeff, I'm sorry your A&P and IA let you down. I'm also sorry when home builders don't perform well. I am a long time A&P, I've been fooling around with little airplanes for decades, both as a career and an avocation, (I love 'em!) and I've seen plenty of problems on amateur-built and type-certificated airplanes. I'm not sure if homebuilts are worse than TCed airplanes, I don't care, and I'm very uncomfortable with the finger pointing. People are people, misteaks, shortcuts and outright bad moves are made by all of them. I see no profit trying to figure out which is which. To answer your final question, suggest the only way to fix this is for folks like to you and I to continue to be vigilant to find and fix things whenever we can. We are all always looking, refining, fixing, improving and tweaking these machines because none of them are perfect or ever will be. In this game, the journey to perfection is the thing, not the destination because we can't get there. And like Ron Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," no matter who built it, modified it or maintained it.
 
YIKES!!!

I've been fooling around with little airplanes for decades, both as a career and an avocation, (I love 'em!) and I've seen plenty of problems on amateur-built and type-certificated airplanes. And like Ron Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," no matter who built it, modified it or maintained it.

When I am visiting a build, I, of course, nose around looking at things, how things were put together. Again, I have seen some OMG things. If it is something minor, I may not say anything. Glairing: probably. Egregious: I have no problem pointing things out. I approach it differently depending on who it is and what the problem is. Sometimes, just a suggestion: this may work better if you do this.... Most people appreciate the input. Sometimes you look at things for so long during a build, everything that you have looked at a hundred times looks OK. I had airplane people over to look at my build often, or they would just drop by. Rivet gun noise attracts attention!:)

Anyone building should be thankful people come look at your project. One: it's cool to show it of. Two: they may find something you are not seeing. I had two A&Ps look over SuzieQ before her first flight just to make sure I was not missing something.

I was working on a Cessna 172 once and was under the panel doing something. Their control system (yokes? Who put THOSE in an airplane?) is linked right to left with a gear and chain system. That chain is held together with a really small bolt, castellated nut with a tiny tiny cotter key through it. It freaked me out at the time the importance of that ONE TINY cotter key! There are no "minor" parts in an airplane! At least not many!
 
Once worked for a parts company. Guy asked for brake parts and gave him what he needed per serial number. He asked what to do with them and told him to give them to his mechanic. He said he was the mechanic.🤢😧😳
 
Just to clarify, non of these issues were on my airplane or done by an A&P I hired. They are in fact RV's brought to myself and my buddy to do work on their airplanes, most likely due to our attention to detail and knowledge.

The last airplane in question, is one well documented on this forum from a past "rebuild" combined with an older A&P that signed it off for the last 2 years.

What should have been a normal conditional inspection of 2 days, has turned into several weeks, cylinders being removed for stripped spark plugs, lots of fuel delivery issues, flight control issues, baffle cracks, etc. All of them were there on the last inspection which was signed off.

As someone now fixing other RV's I am just seeing issues that are scary and our desire to make RV's safer, and educate others on how to build safe RV's is our goal.
 
Just to clarify, non of these issues were on my airplane or done by an A&P I hired. They are in fact RV's brought to myself and my buddy to do work on their airplanes, most likely due to our attention to detail and knowledge.

The last airplane in question, is one well documented on this forum from a past "rebuild" combined with an older A&P that signed it off for the last 2 years.

What should have been a normal conditional inspection of 2 days, has turned into several weeks, cylinders being removed for stripped spark plugs, lots of fuel delivery issues, flight control issues, baffle cracks, etc. All of them were there on the last inspection which was signed off.

As someone now fixing other RV's I am just seeing issues that are scary and our desire to make RV's safer, and educate others on how to build safe RV's is our goal.


Good on you !!! Your priorities and intentions are spot on, and in line with all good builders !!!
 
I once had a gentleman call me and ask if I could do a Condition Inspection on his RV. He had just bought it and brought it here from out of state. I told him I didn't have the time right now and referred him to an A&P friend in Mineral Wells.

My friend called me a while later and thanked me for the year long project to make the airplane airworthy. He sent me MANY pictures of phone wire run through garden hose, rivet holes sans rivets, figure 8 holes in critical spar mounting places, and on, and on, and on.

Some of those photos have been used in Vic Syracuse' articles in KitPlanes.

I've been asked to amend airworthiness certificates that expired 40 years ago, and yet the annual condition inspection had been signed off every year.

You would not believe some of the the things us "old timers" have seen.
 
I've seen some A&P's (and IA's) that are so bad, I wouldn't even let them work on my car, much less my airplane.

At the other end of the spectrum, I've seen some really talented non-certificated mechanics who are amazingly skilled and thorough.
 
I've been asked to amend airworthiness certificates that expired 40 years ago, and yet the annual condition inspection had been signed off every year.

Airworthiness certificates expire? I can't find anything indicating it on mine. Did this change at some point? Just trying to gobble up the info! :)
 
I found this on a 12. Bolts too short? No. Just too many washers on the back side. I just removed the excess washers and it was fine. I also found several rows of missing rivets. One row held the bottom skin to the firewall.
 

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Airworthiness certificates expire? I can't find anything indicating it on mine. Did this change at some point? Just trying to gobble up the info! :)

Many years ago, “special” airworthiness certificates (Experimental certificates are special) expired every year. Not so today.
 
For example.

  • Speaker wire for the mag wiring.


  • I think I am going to chuck this as my favorite and see if I can find some speaker wire to use as spark plug wire. Wire needs to carry electricity right and I think speaker wire should be able to do that :)
 
Jeff, I'm sorry your A&P and IA let you down. I'm also sorry when home builders don't perform well. I am a long time A&P, I've been fooling around with little airplanes for decades, both as a career and an avocation, (I love 'em!) and I've seen plenty of problems on amateur-built and type-certificated airplanes. I'm not sure if homebuilts are worse than TCed airplanes, I don't care, and I'm very uncomfortable with the finger pointing. People are people, misteaks, shortcuts and outright bad moves are made by all of them. I see no profit trying to figure out which is which. To answer your final question, suggest the only way to fix this is for folks like to you and I to continue to be vigilant to find and fix things whenever we can. We are all always looking, refining, fixing, improving and tweaking these machines because none of them are perfect or ever will be. In this game, the journey to perfection is the thing, not the destination because we can't get there. And like Ron Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," no matter who built it, modified it or maintained it.

Well said. Mistakes will happen, learn from them and move on.
 
I think I am going to chuck this as my favorite and see if I can find some speaker wire to use as spark plug wire. Wire needs to carry electricity right and I think speaker wire should be able to do that :)

I forgot the same airplane had what was basically clear chain saw fuel tube ran into the cockpit, secured with safety wire for the primer lines.
 
Airworthiness certificates expire? I can't find anything indicating it on mine. Did this change at some point? Just trying to gobble up the info! :)

§ 21.181 Duration.
(a) Unless sooner surrendered, suspended, revoked, or a termination date is otherwise established by the FAA, airworthiness certificates are effective as follows:

(1) Standard airworthiness certificates, special airworthiness certificates - primary category, and airworthiness certificates issued for restricted or limited category aircraft are effective as long as the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations are performed in accordance with Parts 43 and 91 of this chapter and the aircraft are registered in the United States.
(2) A special flight permit is effective for the period of time specified in the permit.
(3) A special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category is effective as long as -
(i) The aircraft meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft;
(ii) The aircraft conforms to its original configuration, except for those alterations performed in accordance with an applicable consensus standard and authorized by the aircraft's manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;
(iii) The aircraft has no unsafe condition and is not likely to develop an unsafe condition; and
(iv) The aircraft is registered in the United States.

(4) An experimental certificate for research and development, showing compliance with regulations, crew training, or market surveys is effective for 1 year after the date of issue or renewal unless the FAA prescribes a shorter period. The duration of an experimental certificate issued for operating amateur-built aircraft, exhibition, air-racing, operating primary kit-built aircraft, or operating light-sport aircraft is unlimited, unless the FAA establishes a specific period for good cause.
(b) The owner, operator, or bailee of the aircraft must, upon request, make it available for inspection by the FAA.
(c) Upon suspension, revocation, or termination by order of the FAA of an airworthiness certificate, the owner, operator, or bailee of an aircraft must, upon request, surrender the certificate to the FAA.

Our airworthiness certs fall under "experimental - amateur built" and not R&D/training/market survey, so the regs don't specify an expiration date. That may not have been the case for the aircraft with valid annuals but an expired cert. Section 1a says it has to be maintained in accordance with standard techniques and practices and all ADs complied with in order for the cert to remain valid for standard certs. It doesn't explicitly say the same thing for experimental, but I think thats a gray area. You're technically allowed to ignore ADs and SBs for parts in your aircraft, and while the FAA won't revoke your cert for that, I wouldn't personally think an aircraft is airworthy with outstanding safety issues that need to be addressed. You may also be opening yourself up to liability if you sell your plane knowing it had safety issues that you didn't disclose or fix, but thats a question for the lawyers.
 
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Many years ago, “special” airworthiness certificates (Experimental certificates are special) expired every year. Not so today.

Roger that Paul. Thanks for the knowledge!

Actually some of them still do.

The Experimental Market Survey and Crew Training categories that kit manufacturer demonstrators are certified under are good for 365 days.

I have to go through the entire application process on every aircraft, every year. Fortunately since it is just a renewal, the aircraft doesn't require a reinspection and with the new DMS I can do the entire process via e-mail.

After posting I noticed that someone listed the actual text from the FAA Order....

§ 21.181 Duration.
(a) Unless sooner surrendered, suspended, revoked, or a termination date is otherwise established by the FAA, airworthiness certificates are effective as follows:

(1) Standard airworthiness certificates, special airworthiness certificates - primary category, and airworthiness certificates issued for restricted or limited category aircraft are effective as long as the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations are performed in accordance with Parts 43 and 91 of this chapter and the aircraft are registered in the United States.
(2) A special flight permit is effective for the period of time specified in the permit.
(3) A special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category is effective as long as -
(i) The aircraft meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft;
(ii) The aircraft conforms to its original configuration, except for those alterations performed in accordance with an applicable consensus standard and authorized by the aircraft's manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;
(iii) The aircraft has no unsafe condition and is not likely to develop an unsafe condition; and
(iv) The aircraft is registered in the United States.

(4) An experimental certificate for research and development, showing compliance with regulations, crew training, or market surveys is effective for 1 year after the date of issue or renewal unless the FAA prescribes a shorter period. The duration of an experimental certificate issued for operating amateur-built aircraft, exhibition, air-racing, operating primary kit-built aircraft, or operating light-sport aircraft is unlimited, unless the FAA establishes a specific period for good cause.
(b) The owner, operator, or bailee of the aircraft must, upon request, make it available for inspection by the FAA.
(c) Upon suspension, revocation, or termination by order of the FAA of an airworthiness certificate, the owner, operator, or bailee of an aircraft must, upon request, surrender the certificate to the FAA.
 
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You’re right guys - there are also special requirements for other Experimental certificates - I just figured that the vast majority of folks here are registering their RV’s as E-AB, not for R&D, Market Research, Racing, etc.... so I wasn’t specific.
 
You’re right guys - there are also special requirements for other Experimental certificates - I just figured that the vast majority of folks here are registering their RV’s as E-AB, not for R&D, Market Research, Racing, etc.... so I wasn’t specific.

Actually a few E-AB A/W certificates can have an expiration. For example; if I do a pressurized aircraft, I will issue a 1 year certificate. I want to inspect the aircraft after the interior is installed and pressurization tests done. Usually these are not done at original certification.
 
How interesting guys!

Scott, glad you guys don't have to inspect every year for a renewel!

Mel, just out of curiosity what are you mainly looking for after pressure testing? I would imagine mostly structural?

Just wondering for my pressurized RV-15 that cruises in the flight levels! Hope your listening Greg. :D hahaha
 
Pressurization Tester

I watched someone make a home-brew aircraft pressurization tester. Found a high flow, low pressure pump, ran it on 220v electric motor and was able to pressurize a King Air to about 4psi. But WOW, that thing was noisy. Couldn't talk to anybody in the hangar, even shouting at the person beside you. There wasn't any over-pressure protection or anything, just turn it on and hope for the best. The lucky person in the plane opened the dump valve if the pressure got too high. Was a little bit quieter in the plane too, but the ears sure felt the rapid changes. It was a horrid contraption.

A $1200 two stage shop vac hooked up to the outlet was able to produce about 1.5 psi on the same King Air. Would likely do a bit better on a newer, smaller, and less leaky airframe.
 
How interesting guys!
Scott, glad you guys don't have to inspect every year for a renewel!
Mel, just out of curiosity what are you mainly looking for after pressure testing? I would imagine mostly structural?
Just wondering for my pressurized RV-15 that cruises in the flight levels! Hope your listening Greg. :D hahaha

One of the primary things I'm looking for is that the pressure vessel hasn't been compromised by installation of the interior. It's not uncommon to find that while putting in the interior, someone has run a screw through a part of the pressure containment.
 
One of the primary things I'm looking for is that the pressure vessel hasn't been compromised by installation of the interior. It's not uncommon to find that while putting in the interior, someone has run a screw through a part of the pressure containment.

:eek:

I see your point
 
This is a primary reason I have a different person / entity do my Condition Inspection every year.

The first year I owned it, my local mechanic (who is a wizard...couldn't speak higher of his work) and I tore the airplane apart and re-baselined it.

The second year I flew it to Walt Aronow in Texas for a panel upgrade, and had him do the CI.

The third year, I a local friend of mine who is an RV-8 builder was going to do the CI along with an A&P who lives across the street (at a Skypark).

I figure, the more eyes that see the airplane, the more chances that something will get caught. Everyone tends to look at different things.
 
Here is one I found..... In a certified airframe no less. At least the cotter pin was in good shape.

hRtBh7r.jpg
 
Here is one I found..... In a certified airframe no less. At least the cotter pin was in good shape.

hRtBh7r.jpg

OK, Not Fair! ;) Gotta hear the REST of the story!!

Looks like a bolt that has been in a fork end for a long time, and has nearly worn through. Such as a rudder cable? Or a turnbuckle end?
 
Several moons ago, I was having a beer with a mechanic from a previous job. He shared the story about how he ended up at his (at the time) present employer. He got fired during an inspection of the control system. Found the aileron control cable had THREE strands left. When he told the boss, the response was "that airplane better be flying tomorrow". They didn't have a spare aileron control cable in stock. This mechanic cut the last 3 strands, went home and never went back. After that story, I was very happy to be flying planes he maintained.
 
Curious, what's a "certified" airplane?

An airplane that holds a type certificate and likely a standard airworthiness certificate. Basically anything that came off an assembly line from a company. Cessna, mooney, king air, etc.
 
OK, Not Fair! ;) Gotta hear the REST of the story!!

Looks like a bolt that has been in a fork end for a long time, and has nearly worn through. Such as a rudder cable? Or a turnbuckle end?

2006 Aviat Husky with the Lycoming 200hp angle-valve IO-360-A1D6 engine. Unlike the standard 180hp engine, when a Husky has the 200hp engine it gets a cowl flap. This bolt was one of two cowl-flap hinges (one on each side of cowl flap for a pivot). The whole assembly had to be replaced.

I found a clevis pin holding the seat back up in a Cessna 180J in about the same wear condition. That was more horrifying as the seat back failure could cause similar stall-spin fate involved in the Cessna seat rail stop AD. A cowl flap coming loose is bad but probably not fatal. A seat back failure could easily be.
 
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